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Author Topic: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.  (Read 7784 times)

Offline Hieronymus

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Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« on: February 17, 2013, 01:44:05 PM »
DISCLAIMER

I don't pretend to be an expert on Warhammer, and I certainly do not have any credentials with which to back this Theory-hammer up. I've been thinking about the Warriors of Chaos Book recently, and I thought I would take the time and effort to share my thoughts about the Daemon Prince with you all. I'm not suggesting that there is going to be anything new or particularly ground breaking in what follows, but take it for what it is. I would appreciate constructive criticism and the sharing of ideas/experience to support/debunk what I have conjectured.


The Daemon Prince

A little different to how he was last time around, eh? A strength 6, unbreakable, possibly flying monster with a potentially 2+ armour save, who is able to regain wounds in combat, and can be a Level 4 caster with 5 spells from any of 8 Lores of Magic. (Not 'The Eight', just eight).

It's undeniable that the Daemon Prince can be fairly terrifying in combat, especially against infantry. He has the manoeuvrability and survivability to hold up a block of any infantry we can field, and even though he's Unbreakable, he's more likely to be winning combat.

That's enough doom and gloom, let's focus on the Daemon Prince's [henceforth DP] drawbacks.

Not a Large Target

Although he is a massive model, and a monster, the DP is not a 'Large Target'. Consequently, his 'Inspiring Presence' is only 12''.

This doesn't really sound like a drawback, but considering the DP is most likely going to be moving 20'' towards you in order to get into combat as fast as possible, this does leave the rest of his troops somewhat high and dry. Considering the points increase for Chaos Marauders, you probably aren't going to be seeing many massive blocks of infantry, and with the ascendancy of the Mark of Nurgle as the “new filth”, there are unlikely to be many Immune to Pyschology (ITP) troops. It's not going to win you the game, but as the 'Will of Chaos' rule is not in the new book, Panic could well help you make a mess of his Leadership 7 to 8 battle line.

Wizard

So a Daemon Prince on the Lore of Nurgle who ends up getting an extra toughness and an extra wound is undeniably a problem. It takes the Daemon Prince's rather mediocre toughness of 5 and wounds of 4 to a much scarier level. That's the down side.

The up-side is that if a Daemon Prince is a Wizard, he is subject to all the usual down-sides of being a wizard.

Miscasts:

If a Daemon Prince rolls a mis-cast he has very little option but to take it on the chin. With only 25 points of magic items, you probably won't see many Earthing Rods on such a combat-orientated monster, and with the demise of the Infernal Puppet, the DP is just going to have to accept whatever he rolls.

If your opponent is savvy, he's probably cottoned on to the fact that Dimensionally cascading his 500 point model is a bad idea, and will be less likely to throw lots of dice at a spell, giving you a slightly easier time in the magic phase, or alternatively, will take a Level 2 wizard from the Heroes section, which again, gives you an advantage.

Items:

Also, as a Wizard, the DP is subject to magic items that target wizards, namely; the Feedback Scroll, Sivejir's Hex Scroll, and the Trickster's Shard. Granted, these are all expensive Arcane items, that do not necessarily work, but they do have utility against the caster DP. Turning the DP who has just flown right up into your face, into a frog with Toughness 1 with no armour save and only 4 wounds is fairly decisive, in my opinion.

Monster

How has Empire always dealt with Monsters? That's right, a cannon ball strategically applied to whatever-it-is' face. I don't think I really need to go into too much detail about this, it's something you've all thought about. A Daemon Prince can still take Wizard Levels and a Charmed Shield, but that is against the first hit only, and prohibits the DP from taking more useful articles, such as the Sword of Swift Slaying, Helm of Many eyes etc.

Furthermore, as he is such a high-point unit, the DP will most likely be the General of any Warriors of Chaos army. As he is unable to join any units, he will be unable to give him army any higher than a Leadership of 9. Although Leadership 9 is fairly solid, as has previously been stated, it is not necessarily going to be shared by the rest of the army, and largely negates the power of the Standard of Discipline.

Eye of the Gods

Being a mortal who has transcended the petty bonds of flesh by virtue of horrific and heinous deeds, the DP doesn't have much to prove to his daemonic patrons and does not have the 'Eye of the Gods' rule. Consequently, you have an interesting avenue to exploit. As a single model, the Daemon Prince doesn't have any option but to accept a challenge, and has very little to gain from doing so. You can't expect the Champion to live, but if the DP is turning him into a chunks he's a massive point investment that is not doing what he needs to do.

Magic Items

The Daemon Prince can only take 25 points of Magic Items, in addition to his 100 points of Chaos Mutations and Powers.

Always Strike First:

One of the more popular item choices for the Daemon Prince appears to be the Sword of Swift Slaying/Helm of Many Eyes, to give the I9 Daemon Prince a re-rolls to hit in close combat. As anyone who has ever rolled any dice before will know, Lady Luck can be capricious, and although he's unbreakable, a DP who fluffs his 3+'s is not going to be putting the hurt on. The down-side of this, is that you've got a model, probably with a 2+ armour save, and only a 5+ ward save. This is what the Lore of Metal was made for.

Magic Resistance:

Unless the DP is a DP of Khorne, he will be unable to afford any items that give him Magic Resistance. Although due to his high Strength, Toughness and Leadership the DP is less susceptible to spells from the Lore of Death, higher strength value spells, such as Banishment, Urannon's Thunderbolt and Amber Spear can be quite effective.

Options Available to the Empire:

Artillery: Well, duh. All of the Empire artillery, with exception of the Helstorm can make a Daemon Prince run for cover.

1+ Cavalry: Without the option to Thunderstomp, the DP is relying on his 3+ to hit's in combat.

Magic Items: In addition to the Arcane Magical items that the Empire can field on a cheap wizard, there are some magic items that are worth considering.

  • Runefang: Automatically wounding with no armour saves? The Runefang is best used on a Grand Master, who with the Immune to Psychology special rule, is able to effectively nullify the Terror caused by the DP. Combine this with a Potion of Speed, and well, the DP still gets his re-rolls, but that's a problem to worry about another time.
  • Gold Sigil Sword: I 10 is pretty good, especially if you can create a character who is able to stand up to the DP in close combat. I'm thinking, Gold Sigil Sword, Talisman of Preservation, Potion of Toughness, Charmed Shield?

Magic: Empire have access to all the Lores of Magic, and the Augments, Direct Damage and Magic Missile spells from the Lore of Light are especially effective against the DP. The Lore of Metal can be very effective, although you could use the Ring of Volans (really?!) to get yourself a Searing Doom. The Lore of Heavens, is again a strong choice, as with the Lore Attribute, you are giving yourself even more chances for the DP to roll poorly, and the de-buffs make him less useful in combat.

The Luminark: This Wacky Wizard Wagon might be quite useful against the DP, not only because of the laser beam, but also giving you that little extra protection with the 6+ ward.

Warrior Priest Prayers: Being able to re-roll to wound, and/or giving a unit a 5+ ward save is fairly useful against something like the DP.

Concluding Remarks: Empire certainly have the tools to deal with a Daemon Prince, and although with the exception of artillery, most of these will provide an aware player with the options to beat the Daemon Prince, or the army that is trailing in its wake.

I would appreciate any thoughts/criticisms that you have.
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Offline Athiuen

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 02:16:28 PM »
Speculum....dead.
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Offline Baluc

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 03:29:03 PM »
Speculum....dead.

How would you catch the DP with a speculum?

The best DP has some combination of

Sword of striking, Charmed shield, and Dragonbane gem

He's rocking a 1+ 5++ the nurgle variation is hit on 5s but quite often 6's, flies, and is resistant to lore of death, and 2+ ward against metal.

He is also likely to be supported by a 2nd flying monster or out of combat range casting nurgle buffs and giving himself more wounds and toughness.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 03:31:58 PM by Baluc »

Offline satch

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 05:45:28 PM »
cannon ball. iv e fought them several times and cannons are -the- best answer, to elaborate you do not need to kill him to take him out of the game i might add, bringing him down to 1 or even 2 wounds will make the controlling player very cautious to put him into combat or even cast spells, with one wound remaining most of the miscasts can very easily kill him.

IMO he is not a competitive choice esp agasint anything with artillery which you always see in tournys, he is a solid choice no doubt but having your general + level 4 that vulnerable from t1 is very risky. 1 lucky cannon and he is dead and thats the game. no gen + no magic + 500 points gone  normally = GG

Offline Delthos

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 09:43:48 PM »
I think they are going to be a problem. I don't think a lot of WoC player's will actually invest points in one, they will just wait for their Eye of the Gods rolls to get them. If they take a War Shrine and two units of Chosen and deploy the two units of Chosen within 12" of the Shrine, they will have 4D6 on each Chosen unit, giving them a good chance at double 6s and a cheap Daemon Prince, with all the rules and equipment the Chosen unit has. Granted they won't have wings, but they are still going to be a big threat.

Then throw in the War Shrine's spell to grant d3 champions within 12" an Eye of the Gods roll, which will be at 3d6 and I fully expect to see at least one Daemon Prince popping up in games against WoC if they have a War Shrine and Chosen. The War Shrine's spell is an innate bound spell, so they will go for IF in casting the spell. Giving the shrine the Mark of Tzeentch also makes it very hard to kill, so there isn't a good reliable counter to it.
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Offline kris_kapsner

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 02:45:15 AM »
The warshrine's bound spell functions on 1d3 "models", not champions.  So, theoretically the WoC player can turn 6 point warhounds into 245 point demon princes.

As for taking on demon princes, the Empire is one of the better suited armies to do so.  Three canons pointed his direction on turn one will make even a charmed shield toting DP quake in his boots...can they even wear boots?   :icon_cool:

I'm currently in the process of building both a WoC army and Empire army and had the pleasure of facing them off against each other recently when a friend came over to play a game.  We played a 2400 point game and the WoC only won by 400 points.  And that was in spite of the DP making 6 out of 7 rolls of 5+ needed when a comet of casandora dropped in his lap.  Or the game could have gone far differently, in favor of the Empire.

With that said though, the DP is a force to contend with.  There isn't a character that can stand up to him in the Empire army, not even Karl Franz wielding Ghal Maraz on Deathclaw can.  Well, perhaps I should math hammer that.   :icon_biggrin:

Offline kris_kapsner

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 03:10:10 AM »
Math-hammer of Demon Prince verses Karl Franz on Deathclaw.

Just thought this would be fun to math out.


My Demon Prince in my WoC army has the following and comes in at 390 points.
1+ armor save, 5+ ward save, 2+ ward verses fire
Nurgle penalizes enemy with a -1 to hit
Sword of Striking gives the demon +1 to hit
Charmed Shield ignores the first hit
S4 breath weapon
Soul Feeder allows him to regain wounds when rolling 6's for each wound caused
Fly

Faced toe to toe with the 585 point Karl Franz on his trusted steed.

Both fly so I'll let the charge bonus be a wash and just duke this out.

DP goes first.  He unleashes his breath weapon first to soften up the target and see if Deathclaw could be taken down. 
Average hits of 7 with 5 going on Deathclaw and 2 on Karl.
DC takes 1.65 wounds
Karl takes .5 wounds after saves

DP is face with a tough choice, direct all attacks at Deathclaw and then be able to thunderstomp Karl?  But risk Ghal Maraz?  Or, attack Karl and avoid the terrible auto-wound d3 wounds weapon?

If DP attacks DC with 5 attacks he'll do 4.15 hits causing 2.78 wounds which will add up to a total of 4.43 wounds...dangerously close to dropping Deathclaw with his 5 wounds.  Roll just a hair above average and the beast drops, leaving Karl on foot and ready to strike back.

If DP attacks Karl with 5 attacks he'll do 4.15 hits causing 3.44 wounds which after Karl's saves translates to  1.43 wounds for a total of 1.93. 

Either way, Karl is alive to attack him next.  Unfortunately, Karl needs 5's to hit which will average out to 1.32 hits.  The DP ignores the first hit 83% of the time with the charmed shield taking the number of hits down to .49 in round one.  Wound automatically with no armor saves.  After the ward save the damage multiplied by the 2 wounds Ghal Maraz averages becomes .65 wounds.  If Deathclaw is alive, he'll add 1.65 hits which become 1.11 wounds but after saves becomes just .37 wounds.

After only round 1, our demon prince has barely 1 wound caused to him and either Karl Franz or Deathclaw are ready to die.  If Deathclaw was killed round one, the DP would get a thunderstomp on Karl Franz as well where he would only have his 4+ ward as protection due to it being S6.

The battle is lost by Karl Franz on average.  But, when it all plays out, the DP has to take 3 combat turns to beat both Karl and DC. 

So, moral of the story is:  Kill the demon prince with canons.  There is nothing in the army that can take him down in combat.

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 05:09:19 AM »
Well done you've shown that special characters are overpriced.  What a revelation that was.  Man I totally didn't realise.  I'll never take Kentucky Karl and his Killer Death Chicken again.   :roll:
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Offline TexasYankee

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 06:26:30 AM »
The warshrine's bound spell functions on 1d3 "models", not champions.  So, theoretically the WoC player can turn 6 point warhounds into 245 point demon princes.

Negative, brother. The bound spell only works on models with the "Eye of the Gods" special rule.
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Offline Joelatron

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2013, 07:46:22 AM »
To be honest, with empire it is not the demon prince build I am worried about - as you said cannons and hellblasters will kill it easily.

The real scary thing in the WoC book is a stubborn tzeench lord on a disc with a 3+ ward, re-rolling any 1's. THAT will not be stopped by a simple cannon shot or two. For these we need to start thinking very seriously about waralter + 2 light mages for some s6 banishment goodness.

Offline satch

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 09:29:10 PM »
disks lord are useless imo they will normally take tzzench and so they do not want to be in combat, let him fly around casting i will just kill the rest of his army while he uses a direct damage lore with a close combat army ...

Offline rothgar13

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 10:45:17 PM »
Disc Sorcerer Lords can take Metal as well. Either that, or they can take the form of a Chaos Lord you can't actually kill.

Offline Gankom

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 11:05:00 PM »
I'm pretty lucky. My only regular chaos player is very firm about having mortals only in his army, and as few mutants as possible. He takes two lvl 2 'shamans' that are only really there to dispell. His whole theme is punching the enemies head in. It will be interesting if he ends up with a DP midgame now.

Unfortunatly my theme is usually shield wall supported by small amounts of artillery and either archers or handguns. It's always fun seeing how well you can go toe to toe with those close combat beserkers.

Offline Baluc

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2013, 03:48:29 AM »
cannon ball. iv e fought them several times and cannons are -the- best answer, to elaborate you do not need to kill him to take him out of the game i might add, bringing him down to 1 or even 2 wounds will make the controlling player very cautious to put him into combat or even cast spells, with one wound remaining most of the miscasts can very easily kill him.

IMO he is not a competitive choice esp agasint anything with artillery which you always see in tournys, he is a solid choice no doubt but having your general + level 4 that vulnerable from t1 is very risky. 1 lucky cannon and he is dead and thats the game. no gen + no magic + 500 points gone  normally = GG

You're incorrect, he will more likely want to be in combat, or cast so he can heal wounds.

In an army with monsterous beast, infantry, cavalry and monsters to hide the DP behind, and that don't prevent him from charging, you're being awfully flippant.

Does the "best" chaos army include a daemon prince? I think that is too be seen.

Offline satch

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2013, 05:30:18 PM »
Baluc that is dependant on the lore, a tzeench or slaneesh wont gain wounds from spells, and not all have the get a wound from a 6 thingy, its possible yes but personally if i had a 500 point investment sitting on 1 wound i would not charge in to combat unless it was my last choice, i would rather fly behind cover so i could not be shot at.

Even in combat with just 1 wound left your not guaranteed to get a wound back and it isnt that unlucky even a halberd to get lucky and put a wound on the DP dependant on gear ofc (so many variations make it hard to pin point what exactly you will having to kill)

Offline Baluc

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 02:35:54 PM »
Well to start, if you're seeing a DP its 95% of the time going to be nurgle, which is enough to centre the discussion on that build. In 8th edition there is no cover, short of a building, so he's going to get shot at, regardless. I played a game against ogres 2 weeks ago and ran across the same situation, he got cannoned lost 4 wounds(he had previously gained one from lore of nurgle), everyone instantly got all like "you have to hide him, and keep him alive." I responded by saying if he doesn't do anything for the rest of the game he is essentially dead, giving up VPs or not, I would basically be playing 500 points down.

He charged the Ironblaster killed it got a wound back, cast a spell 3 spells, got a wound back, Charged a gutstar got 3 wounds back over 3 rounds of combat, and ended the game with more wounds that he started with. If you're rolling 5 attacks that hit on 2's and wound on 2's your going to get lots of opportunity to get wounds back. He needs to die completely, which even with 4 wounds assuming a perfect shot, is a 30% chance of doing it. Bad bounces, misfires, etc being it down to less than 20%. Chimeras, Skullcrushers, and gorebeast chariots mean you're going to be pressed for targets, as any all of these are more destructive as straight up combat units than the DP.

Why the DP is so good is that he functions extremely well even if you roll poorly, 2's and 2's to wound pretty much any that isn't a monster, and he has 1+ armour and is hit by anything not ws5 on 6's. There is no "lucky" halberd, he laughs at ASF re-rolls, even the runefang is a poor weapon, as you only have a 60% chance to do one wound, if you're still alive that is.

This is the build, there really is only one, the book has been out for a month now the rest have been vetted and deemed sub par. The build is interesting because the more involved in the game he is the better he gets. If you aren't brave and aggressive the DP is quite poor actually, as he is a large portion of your army. Generally the play goes deploys behind your army doing his general thing, Tune one, Chimera goes after cannon, DP goes behind Chimera. Turn two chimera charges cannon. DP Charges second cannon. Any other war machines are of less concern to him. As they either allow armour, in the case of HBVG and organ guns, or wound on 3's and have to roll to hit, like bolt throwers as he isn't a large target he can gain cover from the enemy army.

Daemon Prince
Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Armour, Daemonic Flight
Level 2-4
Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder (Additional items include chaos familiar, and/or unholy strike)
Sword of Striking, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane gem

This isn't to say he isn't killable ( I would be the first to call him an OP piece of nonsenses if he wasn't) he is though a very serious enemy model that needs to be given the correct amount of respect. Basically he isn't a shitty T6 no save monster you can just cannon off in two turns.

Offline Krokz

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 03:06:46 PM »
Daemon Prince
Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Armour, Daemonic Flight
Level 2-4
Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder (Additional items include chaos familiar, and/or unholy strike)
Sword of Striking, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane gem
How many points is all that together? Lv2/Lv4 ?

Offline Baluc

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 03:34:50 PM »
A level two is going to ring in at 430, a level 4 would be 500.

Offline Darknight

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2013, 07:57:42 PM »
Why is Nurgle so awesome and the rest sub-par? I haven't read the book so I don't know what they do.
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Offline rothgar13

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2013, 08:04:57 PM »
I wouldn't say the rest are subpar, it's just that Nurgle is incredibly good (-1 to hit in close combat). I think the only one that's truly disappointing is Tzeentch when it comes to Daemon Princes.

Offline Baluc

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Re: Daemon Princes: my thoughts so far.
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2013, 08:16:56 PM »
Why is Nurgle so awesome and the rest sub-par? I haven't read the book so I don't know what they do.

Its not that they are terrible, its that they don't impose themselves on the game was well as the nurgle wizard does. Death magic is also a pretty potent on the Nurgle Prince.