Topic: Deamons

[Sig]

Cheaper than that

I know this is Fantasy but I've got the 40k version and it seems decent, hopefully Ward didn't blow his load with the Fantasy version but it looks ok.

[jakehunter52]

Got the book this morning. Will take some questions.

First thoughts: A huge revamp in some respects, in others not but certainly a different kind of army, probably what the designers had wanted when they first released the DoC book. With that said, it looks like mono armies are encouraged over mixing and matching but it's okay because of the large number of unit selections for each respective god. However, internal balance seems to suffer some, more on that later.

-Instability is as rumored, with Insane Courage resulting in ridiculous and Double Six making things go poof and then taking wounds limited by what you rolled for your ld test. Also, lores are the same as WoC but attributes allow you to regain models. Kinda cool if you compare that to how VC can lose massive numbers but also regain massive numbers.

-Gifts, while random, are very neat but also depend on which god you are rolling for. Khorne has awesome default options while Tzeentch and Slaanesh are kinda meh. Hellforged Aretefacts are interesting, some more obviously worth it, some are more of a gamble.

-Nurgle is a definite winner. I expect mono Nurgle to be very tournament worthy with pretty much every option well priced and with obvious synergy. That being said, Epidemus is INSANE! His tally was changed so that now it goes:
7+ Nurgle Daemons +1 s
14+ Nurgle Daemons +1 t
21+ Nurgle Daemons KB
28+ Nurgle Daemons re-roll failed ward
His price increased by half and he lost a point of toughness but has twice the wounds. A great tradeoff imo.

-Khorne cannon is as feared. Stupidly priced, worse than the hydra. Must be making up of the severe beating they gave Khorne options.

I'm glad that I am taking Walter w/ 2 light wizards now, seems like combat with them will be tough.

[rothgar13]

Is it true that there are no options for a Dispel Scroll of any kind? Because if so I think that Nurgle will get curbed by people blasting them with Purple Sun over and over again.

[jakehunter52]

Is it true that there are no options for a Dispel Scroll of any kind? Because if so I think that Nurgle will get curbed by people blasting them with Purple Sun over and over again.

Yes it is true. But I feel like there are many ways to counter this "old hat" trick. There is an exalted gift that allows an an additional free dice for each dispel attempt and the model with this gift doesn't have to be the the one dispelling either! If the wizard is trying to creep up the flanks, furies (which can be aligned with any of the gods now) and nurglings (which have scout) can easily stop them.

[rothgar13]

Furies can stop him if it's an Empire Wizard, but not if it's a Daemon Prince or something similar. And a P-Sun straight at someone's face is pretty damaging too. And they have (a) choose to roll on the Exalted Gift table, (b) roll that gift.

[Ambrose]

I havn't seen the book yet, but my brother got the digital copy today.  He plays Deamons for 40k AND fantasy.  Overall he shares Jakehunter's thoughts: improvement over all with some drawbacks.  My brother always played mono army of Khorne so he is okay with the changes.  He loves the new cannon rules but hates the model.  I suggested he gets a WoC chariot and puts bloodletters on it instead and put the cannon somewhere.  He's going to read over the rules and then we will have a 2500 point battle together vs my Empire.  I may try my first battle report for the forums.

Ambrose

[Eighty]

after just being defeated by a mono khorne WoC list (tank blew up, DP regrew all his wounds with soulfeed, failed 7/11 3+ saves on my knights, watched him irresistable the Warshrine spell 3x rolling 2,2,1 buffs  )
I am hoping that Daemon Khorne isnt as scary when the dice are in their favor.. At least i hope my opponent tomorrow will go for khorne.. i do NOT want to fight an epidimius list...

overall though, i would say good book, with an option to revise my opinion after the next game 

[Cpt. Wham]

Got my first game in against the new Deamons last night, here are a few thoughts.

-The RoC chart is not a huge deal.  The only time it mattered was late in the game when he got +1 to all his ward saves...which is HUGE.
-The cannons are pretty ridiculous.  They are way under-costed for what they do, expect to see them a lot.
-Greater deamons are still awesome.  My buddy had a keeper, level 4 shadow with the sword that adds d3 WS, S, A, and I for each round of combat.  I got him down to his last wound, but not until he ate a ton of my army.
-Out of the core troops, Plaguebearers are the big winners.  -1 to hit is just brutal, combine that with t4 and possible regen and you have one of the best anvil units in the game.  Bloodletters are kinda crud for their point increase, deamonettes are situational, and I didn't get to play against any horrors.
-The lack of a dispel scroll really hurts the army.  Feel free to punish them hard in the magic phase, because combat with them is not so fun.

[TexasYankee]

After reading over the book, I have to say this:

Why would anyone want to play this army? Could it possibly get more random or complicated?

It takes long enough to set up a game to play, now we have to wait for the Daemon player to sit there and roll up his gifts randomly for each character? I can see Daemon players bringing a secretary with them to keep track of all the random stuff that happens every turn! Oh, you just created a whole squadron of Furies? Oh, you need to go out to your car to get them? No, that's OK, I'll wait, I mean, we were supposed to start at 12:00, but it took you a good 1/2 hour to figure out and write down all the random stuff your characters got at the binging of the game, so, no, go ahead, take your time.

A shame, some of the new models look decent, but there is no way I'd even begin to play this headache of an army.

[rothgar13]

My experience is that if you're on top of the BRB rules to begin with, the Daemons book won't add much time to it all. I played 3 games at 2500 against Daemons in less than 6 hours (though we did call one of those early).

[Darknight]

I think making up cards with various powers on and stacking them in appropriate piles by the side of the table would save time - roll the gifts, then get the cards out and stack them on a larger card with the name of the model on there. As for extra units of models, I think a fair house-rule would be "If it isn't in the cases you have at the table with you, it doesn't get on the board" if the problem of going to the car / house / buying new models and quickly painting them up was prevelant.

[S.O.F]

Well DoC is a general bleh for me. I'm already not a big fan of daemons having a completely independent list and this one does little to assuage that. Random items really take away from the modelling end of the hobby or in fact that many players like to have some sort of attachment to the models they putting on the table, besides some of us remember how well random generation for the sake of fluff went in the past (Intrigue at Court anyone). Reign of Chaos, ideally as it is now and not altered with a FAQ, is better suited to a Storm of Magic scenario rather than every damned game with daemons.

[Darknight]

What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos?

[S.O.F]

What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos?

To a degree yes, I mean folks defending this 'random item' nonsense from a fluff stand point are really missing the point on where the chaos is and isn't. Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are demi-gods with names and long histories and some even have mortal worshipers. They have a set appearance and equipment that has defined them when they make an appearance on the mortal plain. Random generation is for coming up with a random encounter type RPG foe not for designing an army around.

[TexasYankee]

What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos?

To a degree yes, I mean folks defending this 'random item' nonsense from a fluff stand point are really missing the point on where the chaos is and isn't. Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are demi-gods with names and long histories and some even have mortal worshipers. They have a set appearance and equipment that has defined them when they make an appearance on the mortal plain. Random generation is for coming up with a random encounter type RPG foe not for designing an army around.

H'rumph!

[S.O.F]

H'rumph!

If your going to do it do it right 

[TexasYankee]

H'rumph!

If your going to do it do it right 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY

You watch your ass!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos?

You mean like it was the last years? Sure, if it leads to a better game, why not? Not that I even play Daemons but with the same reasoning they could have introduced a rule for the Empire. Political friction; on a 6 the unit is withdrawn from battle on the order of its liege lord at odds with the resident General/Elector Count/Marshal/Earl commanding this force.

Note that I don't think that WoM roll will affect the game all that much, and Daemons are still pretty strong. Couple of units of BoN with regen, ward, 4+ poison, Epidemius for S5 T6, two Cannon, PB horde for core...ouch.

[Darknight]

I mean folks defending this 'random item' nonsense from a fluff stand point are really missing the point on where the chaos is and isn't. Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are demi-gods with names and long histories and some even have mortal worshipers. They have a set appearance and equipment that has defined them when they make an appearance on the mortal plain.

I'd argue that might not be the case - how would you know? Seriously - Lord Spleenslicer the Bloodthirster might be worshipped under that name by a block of Chaos Warriors, but a primitive tribe might simply know him as "The Slaughterer".

The ethos of Chaos is, well, chaos - and, perhaps more importantly, the idea that the Chaos powers have a view which is radically different from mortal's. So Lord W'therfate might turn up as Crystalord or The Great Gamesman or The Prince of Unending Confusion for reasons no mortal understands.

Similarly, who says Lord W'therfate turns up at all? Maybe someone else comes - because the gods are, well, gods. They are capricious little buggers.

[Martin123]

What the missifire chart for the most undercosted thing in warhammer?

whats this about it been able to teleport if it missfires

[S.O.F]

I'd argue that might not be the case - how would you know? Seriously - Lord Spleenslicer the Bloodthirster might be worshipped under that name by a block of Chaos Warriors, but a primitive tribe might simply know him as "The Slaughterer".

The ethos of Chaos is, well, chaos - and, perhaps more importantly, the idea that the Chaos powers have a view which is radically different from mortal's. So Lord W'therfate might turn up as Crystalord or The Great Gamesman or The Prince of Unending Confusion for reasons no mortal understands.

Similarly, who says Lord W'therfate turns up at all? Maybe someone else comes - because the gods are, well, gods. They are capricious little buggers.

Yes all very well and true but if you are going to use this line of thought should not the generation of the entire Daemonic army be random then and truly chaotic, logistics be damned?

Making the army selection phase 'chaotic' is just dumb. If you did it on a grander scale to be completely accurate it would be a nightmare to figure out what troops end up on the table. Sure you can say maybe the certain Daemon lord doesn't show up but that defies the spirit of the BRB statement that the general is 'your physical avatar upon the battlefield'. You are supposed to have some sort of attachment to the characters you bring and many folks in the past have taken the time to model various gifts on their daemons because of this, making it random is only vaguely thematic and not in a very good way. High Elves don't have Intrigue at Court anymore for a reason.

[Darknight]

Yes all very well and true but if you are going to use this line of thought should not the generation of the entire Daemonic army be random then and truly chaotic, logistics be damned?

Buried somewhere in my posts on this site is an argument for basically just that. Not random, but Chaotic - basically, taking models from a list at whim and paying the points per model and being able to organize them however.

[Baluc]

I'd argue that might not be the case - how would you know? Seriously - Lord Spleenslicer the Bloodthirster might be worshipped under that name by a block of Chaos Warriors, but a primitive tribe might simply know him as "The Slaughterer".

The ethos of Chaos is, well, chaos - and, perhaps more importantly, the idea that the Chaos powers have a view which is radically different from mortal's. So Lord W'therfate might turn up as Crystalord or The Great Gamesman or The Prince of Unending Confusion for reasons no mortal understands.

Similarly, who says Lord W'therfate turns up at all? Maybe someone else comes - because the gods are, well, gods. They are capricious little buggers.

Yes all very well and true but if you are going to use this line of thought should not the generation of the entire Daemonic army be random then and truly chaotic, logistics be damned?

Making the army selection phase 'chaotic' is just dumb. If you did it on a grander scale to be completely accurate it would be a nightmare to figure out what troops end up on the table. Sure you can say maybe the certain Daemon lord doesn't show up but that defies the spirit of the BRB statement that the general is 'your physical avatar upon the battlefield'. You are supposed to have some sort of attachment to the characters you bring and many folks in the past have taken the time to model various gifts on their daemons because of this, making it random is only vaguely thematic and not in a very good way. High Elves don't have Intrigue at Court anymore for a reason.

Please don't compare intrigue at court to rolling for items. Its disingenuous at best. Your level 1 scroll caddy all of a sudden being the army general, is not the same as a rolling a d6 for a selection of great items, and if you don't want what your rolled defaulting to the signature item.

To be honest I like the reign of chaos table, it makes the games a lot more cinematic, and its something for both players to think about during the game. Anything that makes games more dynamic and less an exercise in simple arithmetic at game time is a bonus for me. Basically once your a decent player game 1, and 2 at events are generally boring/unfun as hell as you try and take max points of people who aren't as good as you.

Having to make choices during the game based on changing circumstances just seems so much more challenging and that really excites me.

[MarkoV]

For DoC, i have only one answer: Banishment, Banishment, Banishment. Banishment Banishment, Banishmant! WA, lvl 4 wiz on chariot of light, and about 3 lvl 2 light wizards and possibly 2 lvl 1 wizards. 2 chariots of +1 to dice, and pew pew! Oh, and few cannons. To take down their cannons.
3k armies Empire style!