Topic: Escalation review

[phillyt]

Just both the escalation book and thought I would pop in to share my thoughts.

Neat book, not worth $35.

If you have apocalypse, you don't need it.  Just read the rumors for the vp changes and use the rules from there.  I should have sprung for the apocalypse rules.

[Sig]

Is it an expansion like cities of death or part of the basic rules now? Because I don't fancy super heavies at tournaments. This and "formations" are going to ruin tournaments if used.

[Aldaris]

Apparently it does not contain an "opponents permisssion" thing.

I too am worried about the impact a super heavy would make in a, say, 2000 points game. I haven't tried it, but I imagine a lot of armies would struggle. My Necrons would rejoice about a super heavy vehicle in the opposing army - 600 points upward of Gauss and Haywire fodder. But a gargantuan creature like a harridan or something? No idea how I'd handle that.

[Sig]

Don't think you get rp from d weps though - first turn you lose whatever is under the pie plate, because skill.

Utter garbage.

Wasn't asking about opponents permission, more is escalation a variant like planet strike or whatever, or is it just an add on to the basic game. It looks like the latter, which is total pants. Just saw Kirby's post on it and I have to agree.

[phillyt]

Hard to say if it is balanced.  This isn't  a separate game type, it adds a super heavy slot to the foc.

Most of the items are so over priced, I don't think they are much of an advantage.

Two rules are added to balance things:

1. If your opponent has a super heavy and you do not, you get a +1 to seize the initiative.
2.  For every three hull points you take off the super heavy, or wounds for creatures, you get a victory point.  That right there can end the game.

If you bring a crazy amount of anti vehicle, you would be fin.  Otherwise I can imagine it would be a great time, but when a stompa runs 770 points, you won't see much else on the table, and it isn't worth that at all.  Three ripe tides will do comparable damage with much less risk.

Now the transcendent ctan on the other hand is absolutely unreal.  He is around 800 but is a floating wrecking ball.  He alone can ruin many armies.  When he dies, he will kill everything within a foot of him.

[GamesPoet]

So stompas aren't in the newest Apoc rule book?

[Aldaris]

I'm just worried what this will do to the game. Escalation, Stronghold Assault, Codex: Inquisition AND the new Dataslates for formations are just a bit much all at once!

All this stuff combined pretty much throws what you knew about army composition out the window now, since so many restrictions on what you can take with what are easy as hell to get around. And I don't think that is a good thing, at least not when changes this massive are introduced so casually in such a short timeframe.

As for Superheavies, I'd have less of a problem with them if D-Weapons hadn't been introduced as well. Yes, I imagine D-Weapons can be fun in something like Apoc. Remove fistfuls of models with every shot from your massive Titan, sounds great if this is your cup of tea. But if I am playing a 2000 points game and my opponent plops down a model that will simply remove 2-3 squads a turn because he can shoot several strength D large blasts per turn that ignore any and all saves (cover, invuln... nothing helps) I don't know how much fun that is. "I get first turn. Remove your bikers and the unit with your Warlord, please."

It could be fun if you want to play a game like that. Bigboy vs. Badass, plus their little buddies. The problem is that game already exists, and it's called Apocalypse. And I much prefer 40K.

[iamtheeviltwin]

Escalation and Stronghold are rules supplements (like death from the skies, Altars of War, etc)...in general you should always ask make sure your opponent and you agree to which rules supplements you are using beforehand.

Where this is really going to get interesting is the Tournament scene...I can easily see most TO's rejecting Escalation, much like few tournaments (none I am aware of) use the Ace pilot rules from Death from the Skies.  Stronghold Assault might be allowed, but many tournaments already put restrictions on Fortifications so you might not be able to use all of the options.

[Aldaris]

Yeah, but them we enter the "everyone has their own ruleset they play by", which I despise. I HATE comped tournaments. Always boils down to "let's ban the stuff the head bugger organizing it doesn't like", and rarely if ever leads to more balance. If the solution is simply "no Escalation, that's for friendly games where everyone is fine with it", I'd be content with that.

[rufus sparkfire]

Remove fistfuls of models with every shot from your massive Titan, sounds great if this is your cup of tea.

But that's what makes the current version of warhammer so amazing! Spells that trivially kill all the models you spent ages painting! It's totally worth all the hassle of setting the game up just to take them straight off again! 40K needs to be the same!

Exclamation mark!

[Sig]

The Eldar Titan can shoot four D weapons a turn and move 36".  So your two best anti tank units will die first turn, with no saves of any kind since it bursts straight through invuln saves.

Skill!

Won't be playing against that. Pay to win and nothing more.

[rufus sparkfire]

Funtastic.

[Aldaris]

Won't be playing against that.

Simplest solution really. I'm also pretty convinced most TOs will ban it.

I can imagine playing and even liking it, but sure as hell not as part of regular 40K.

[Sig]

+1

No problem playing it in apoc!

[phillyt]

We intended to play a game today with me using a stompa.  When game time approached, I just didn't want too.  The thing was too many points out of my army, and I knew the game would boil down to kill the stomp and win or don't kill it and lose.  The stompa was very killable, they all are, but reall, it wasn't all that much fun to think about.

So honestly, I think this will take care of itself.  It is so hard to actual use a super heavy that only a couple are so good as to be game breaking (the Ctan and the Eldar titan).  The Reavnant though is like $450+ so I doubt you will see much of that.  They make it prohibitive to use them and their price in game and out makes it tough.

I like the option to use super heavies in regular games.  A baneblade in a normal game would be really neat to use and see.

[rufus sparkfire]

The Reavnant though is like $450+ so I doubt you will see much of that. 

Make one out of cardboard!

Or use a toy robot!



I guess this means the next IG book won't have baneblades in it after all. Hurrah!

[phillyt]

I would never allow someone to scratch build a super heavy and play it using escalation.  In Apocolypse whatever.

But escalation makes the baneblade legal anyway, so if they want to use them they can!  It is like a rolling VP machine.  Really nasty to face, but it will give up all sorts of points!

The damn Ctan on the other hand... that thing is a nightmare!

[rufus sparkfire]

I would never allow someone to scratch build a super heavy and play it using escalation.

Try and stop them! 

But escalation makes the baneblade legal anyway, so if they want to use them they can!

That won't affect me. But I mean the guard book won't be jammed full of useless crap about oversized tanks that look like toys. I was expecting page after page on baneblades and their many variants.

[phillyt]

They all look like toys!  The Baneblade kit is so fantastic.  Truly an amazing looking model.

Anyone putting a he-man doll on the table and calling it a Ctan is going to get told to leave.  It should be a forgeworld model if someone is playing something as gamy as a super heavy.

[rufus sparkfire]

So it's OK to use something overpowered, provided they paid enough money for it? Weird attitude!

Baneblades look lame!

[phillyt]

It at least means someone has a little scratch in the game.  IF you REALLY want to play that over powered monster, put some money where your mouth is and commit to it.

Baneblades look amazing.  They aren't really much bigger than a landraider, or at least enough so to look totally out of place in the game.

[Quickbeam]

I'm fine with someone using super overpowered stuff if they paid an outrageous amount for it only because then when they beat me at least I know they had to spend a couple hundred just to do it!

Most 40k tanks look pretty retarded and completely impossible... I think the Baneblade is the best looking human tank of the bunch though. Even if a gun that size with no bore evacuator would blow the turret clean off... but hey as long as it looks badass!

[phillyt]

The Eldar Titan can shoot four D weapons a turn and move 36".  So your two best anti tank units will die first turn, with no saves of any kind since it bursts straight through invuln saves.

On the flip side, the revnant will be dead in no time.  AV12 with only 9 hull points and no invulnerable save means you will reap three VP pretty quick.  But it will blast some stuff pretty bad in the meantime!

This is what I mean though.  The titan will do a pile of damage, then give up a bunch of vp...

[Sig]

The problem is you may very well end up with no anti tank after one turn, and be unable to stop it. Other games you'll destroy it first turn. It makes the game binary and thus very boring.

[GamesPoet]

So stompas aren't in the newest Apoc rule book?

Never mind.  I was asking this question to see myself write, of course.

Think I figured out the answer to my question just by reading the rest.  Thanks!