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Author Topic: Skaven rumors ( booo) End of Times, new pics + spoilers, Skaven 40k ?? WHAT!  (Read 155827 times)

Offline Bowlzee

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It could just be GW reducing the number of Books they need to produce (lowering costs) but still keeping the armies separate.

Or it could end up being something similar to the following:

Take a Lord level Character and s/he opens up all that Army's units to be used.
Take a Hero level Character and it opens up 1 core and 1 special/rare unit for that army to be used.

My 'Human/Good' faction could then be the following:

Wizard Lord
Thane

Halberdiers
Inner Circle Knights
Thunderers

Demigryphs
Steam Tank
Organ Gun

Offline S.O.F

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Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were

Well that is really sad then isn't it,  what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....

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Offline Philhelm

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Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were

Well that is really sad then isn't it,  what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....

Heh, I was thinking along similar lines, in that Bretonnia was obviously less interesting since it had way less support and was far less frequently used as a setting.  With proper attention, Bretonnia could be just as interesting as the Empire.

Offline FVC

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Well that is really sad then isn't it,  what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....

I think it's also that the army list is more diverse? The Empire is, for all intents and purposes, the protagonist faction. It's the all-rounder human faction, and so it's got a lot of different elements, all of which have a different feel. These different elements are reflected in the army list, and indeed they are all described in detail because they're in the army list.

So if I skim the Empire AB, I'll read about knightly orders, the Colleges of Magic, imperial engineers and war machines, professional state soldiers, warrior-priests and mobs of religious fanatics, witch hunters, and so on. Some of these groups have rivalries. They all have different perspectives and they all have a slightly different feel. An army led by a wizard lord feels different to one led by an arch-lector, which in turn feels different to one led by a grand master. The Empire is very broad, and all its different components are given space in the army.

Whereas if I skim the Bretonnia AB, I can only divide it into three different cultures or styles at best: the knights, the commons, and the servants of the Lady. And of those three, the knights are absolutely centralised. There isn't really an all-peasant or even a peasant-dominant Bretonnian army build out there. And the devotees of the Lady are just a few characters. If I want to make an Empire army list, I can make an artillery train from Nuln or a contingent of the Knights of the White Wolf or a ragged army of Sigmarite fanatics or a calm and professional state army, because all those concepts are supported by the army list itself and by the background that has been provided. If I want to make a Bretonnian army list... it's going to be knights. I have a little flexibility - I can make an Errantry army, or I can go heavy on the chosen of the Lady with Grail and Questing Knights, or I can try the classic Royal Air Force list - but no matter what I do, at some point the army's identity is going to revolve around being knights.

I like knights, but it would be nice to see other perspectives on Bretonnia in the army list. I really like that the Empire army list shows you the Empire from all sides of society: the rich, the poor, the magical, the technological, the clergy, and so on. Similar diversity would help Bretonnia a lot.

The problem with doing that is that it might make it harder to distinguish Bretonnia from the Empire. As it is, Bretonnia's identity is being the knight army. If I could actually make an army of well-trained and disciplined men-at-arms, supported by expert archery and artillery (if perhaps with less gunpowder), wouldn't that be treading on the Empire's toes? Or if I could make a 'beastmaster' sort of Bretonnian army, with pegasi and hippogryphs and jabberwocks and who knows what else, might that blur Bretonnia's identity even more?

I'm not sure. Creative design for a new Bretonnia army book would be fascinating and challenging task. I have no idea when it comes to game balance, but the writing part would be really fun.

Offline Philhelm

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Well that is really sad then isn't it,  what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....

Whereas if I skim the Bretonnia AB, I can only divide it into three different cultures or styles at best: the knights, the commons, and the servants of the Lady. And of those three, the knights are absolutely centralised. There isn't really an all-peasant or even a peasant-dominant Bretonnian army build out there. And the devotees of the Lady are just a few characters. If I want to make an Empire army list, I can make an artillery train from Nuln or a contingent of the Knights of the White Wolf or a ragged army of Sigmarite fanatics or a calm and professional state army, because all those concepts are supported by the army list itself and by the background that has been provided. If I want to make a Bretonnian army list... it's going to be knights. I have a little flexibility - I can make an Errantry army, or I can go heavy on the chosen of the Lady with Grail and Questing Knights, or I can try the classic Royal Air Force list - but no matter what I do, at some point the army's identity is going to revolve around being knights.

I agree with this, but I think it's a failure of the army design, not necessarily the setting.  For instance, I've always thought it would be nice to be able to field a peasant infantry army.  Hell, they don't even have a Man-at-Arms hero, which seems strange to me.  Furthermore, the Knightly characters must be fielded as cavalry unless you pay points for the Virtue of Empathy, which I believe is multiplied in cost every time it is taken by an additional character.

Frankly (pun intended), they should be a D&D rip-off with magical elements and character classes but with an Anglo-Frankish culture.  I would do something like this:

LORDS
-Knight Commander (Perhaps the knightly characters could be like actual paladins?)
-Sorceress
-Man-at-Arms Commander
-High Priest (Perhaps a Priest of Shallya with healing ability like a D&D Cleric - the prayers should be different enough from a Warrior Priest's)
-Ranger/Archer (Aragorn/Robin Hood)
-Mount Options (depending on character):  Warhorse, Pegasus, Hippogryph, Griffon, Unicorn, Dragon

HEROES
-Knight Captain
-Sorceress
-Man-at-Arms Captain
-Priest
-Ranger/Archer
-Bard (Inspirational bubble of some sort)
-Assassin

CORE
-Knights of the Realm
-Men-at-arms (Spears, Halberds, Swords)
-Archers (Longbows, Crossbows)
-Highanders (Barbaric Braveheart Scots with Claymores and no armor)
-Brigands (Perhaps like a thieves' guild - swords, daggers, hand crossbows, throwing weapons, etc.)
-Mounted Men-at-Arms with Spears and Bows

SPECIAL
-Foot Knights
-Bolt Thrower
-Rangers (Scouting archer unit, but not lame)
-Grail Relique
-Pegasus Knights
-Warhounds w/ Men-at-Arms handlers

RARE
-Grail Knights
-Trebuchet
-0-1 Cannon (!)

There is more that could be come up with, and perhaps some ideas scrapped or shuffled around, but this was just a quick brainstorm.

Offline Xathrodox86

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Unfortunately,  Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.

Ludwig isn't MIA, he's with Franz on the way to Altdorf. He was with Valten when he came to Altdorf but Franz and Ludwig went to Averheim and Gregor and Valten ended up being forced north to Middenheim.

You can be sure that Ludwig will bite it. His BFF is dead, so there is nothing in this world left for him anymore. :-P
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Offline Oxycutor

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They aren't wrong when they have Shallya being Taal's wife (unless it's a typo, but I doubt it). That's what the setting is now. That's not to say the setting is particularly good - I agree it isn't. It has a mix of a few good ideas with mostly bad ones.


Rhya has been Taal's wife in all the fluff for 20+ years at least as far back as WFRP 1st edition rulebook.   There has been no other reference other than The End Times: Glottkin that Shallya has anything to do with Taal  (She is now apparently his lover - she is not now his wife)    If there had been some sort of story as to how that situation had happened, like Rhya disappearing/dying/fading or whatever, and then Shallya and Taal becmoing friends, then lovers then that's fine.   Just changing it is fucking stupid.  It just makes you think they don't know their own setting

Offline FVC

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I agree with this, but I think it's a failure of the army design, not necessarily the setting.  For instance, I've always thought it would be nice to be able to field a peasant infantry army.  Hell, they don't even have a Man-at-Arms hero, which seems strange to me.  Furthermore, the Knightly characters must be fielded as cavalry unless you pay points for the Virtue of Empathy, which I believe is multiplied in cost every time it is taken by an additional character.

That's true, but I think the question of distinguishing Bretonnia from the Empire, or for that matter other armies like Chaos, is still a valid one. If I can make a Bretonnian army with a hard core of elite foot knights, supported by cheap men-at-arms and yeomen and a few magicians or ethereal creatures from the Lady's realm, isn't there a risk that it will play very similarly to the Warriors of Chaos? That similarity would ultimately hurt both Bretonnia and Chaos, because each faction's unique play-style is essential to establishing its character.

So while we might want more diverse strategic options for Bretonnia, we also need all those options to feel Bretonnian. We see this with the Empire, don't we? An Empire gunline and a dwarf gunline still feel different, and it's not just because the models look different or because there are different background descriptions in the book. The units you can take and their unique stat-lines make the armies play differently. Similarly, Bretonnia and the knight-heavy Empire army also play differently. Sure, they both consist almost entirely of mundane humans in heavy armour on horses with lances, but they feel different: rules like the Blessing and the Lance change the way the Bretonnian player has to respond to threats, and they create new strengths and weaknesses, while the fact that the Empire knightly army can stick in a few mounted warrior-priests with bound prayers or have the advancing knights supported by a steam tank add a different flavour. Even if we played our games entirely with little scraps of paper with statistics written on them, there would be a discernible difference.

Therefore, when I think about diversifying the army, the question that I find I have to grapple with is: "What feels Bretonnian? What features would make an army feel like it's from Bretonnia? What makes Bretonnia unique, and how can I represent that mechanically?"

The most appropriate armies for comparison would be Empire and Warriors of Chaos, right? The other human armies. What do I get if I think about them?

Consider the Empire. The flavour of the Empire is a diverse and fractious human realm, united (and occasionally divided) by religion, often somewhat paranoid and prone to internal conflict, with advanced technology and a love of gunpowder. It is particularly inspired by the Holy Roman Empire, perhaps in the 16th century or during the Thirty Years' War. The soldiers of the Empire are often physically inferior to their foes, but compensate through cunning combined arms tactics. So when we look at them on the tabletop, there's a pretty wide variety of units. Empire units tend to have pretty mediocre stat-lines, but their detachment rule simulates their cunning tactics. They use ranged weapons and war machines to keep enemies at arm's length and soften them up before it comes to combat, representing both their physical inferiority and their love of technology. Characters are diverse and eclectic: wizards, warrior-priests, witch-hunters, etc., all represent different organisations and have to be used in different ways, reinforcing the nation's internal tensions. Witch hunters don't like wizards. Engineers have quirky and unreliable weapons. Religion is a major driving force. And so on. The army book does a good job of turning the Empire's diversity into a strength and letting you get a sense for what the faction is like.

I won't do something similar for Chaos because I've never had a Chaos army. But you could do the same thing. Chaos is all about inevitability and power, the coming doom of the world at the hands of the Ruinous Powers. They ought to feel strong. So they have very powerful characters. Chaos's flavour is centered on the four Chaos gods, so Chaos units usually come in four different flavours. Chaos has both rock-hard elite infantry to help make them intimidating - the dark tide from the north has to be strong - but they also have cheap marauders because they should be a horde. Rules like Eye of the Gods help communicate their arrogance and power, as they believe they are invincible, and the occasional randomness this rule injects helps make the gods feel capricious. But it also makes the gods feel present and it makes them feel attentive, since the Warriors of Chaos should feel like they are marching under the gaze of their gods.

What could I say about Bretonnia in that light?

Well, Bretonnia is another human realm, perhaps better united and not riven by as many internal disputes. It has a single dominant religion and tends to reject high technology. Bretonnia has a very heroic ethos and loves the quest motif. Bretonnia is particularly inspired by Arthurian mythology and British and French folk-tales or fairy-stories, as opposed to the Empire's more historical feel. How can these things be communicated mechanically, while still feeling different to either the Empire or Chaos?

In some ways I think the current list does very well. The Blessing of the Lady is an excellent mechanic, for instance. Bretonnia is religious, but it is not religious in the same way as the Empire: its spiritual power is not primarily vested in particular characters, priests who channel their deity. The Lady is always watching her followers, and they try to prove themselves worthy of her favour. But this is also different to Chaos, because the Chaos gods are very fickle, and the Eye of the Gods rule is absolutely focused on individual characters. The Lady blesses the entire army, and her blessing is not random in any way. Rather the Blessing is a favour given for Bretonnians trying to live up to a particular code of behaviour: so there are mechanics for gaining the blessing (if you pray for it, demonstrating your desire to follow it) or losing it (if you fail to live up to the code).

It's actually kind of impressive when I think about. The Empire, Bretonnia, and Chaos army lists all use mechanics to give the feeling that these armies' gods are watching and helping, but the mechanics have been carefully chosen. The Empire has a historical feel with powerful conflicting religious institutions, so it has priests with special powers. Bretonnia has an omnipresent goddess with a strict code of conduct, and they get bonuses if they follow it. Chaos has capricious and nasty deities that unpredictably reward great deeds. It's all done quite well.

Anyway, what else...

Because Bretonnia has a heroic feel, it understandably emphasises its characters, but in order to feel properly heroic, they should also feel like underdogs. The knight is the underdog when he fights the dragon; Jack is the underdog when he fights the giant; and so on. So Bretonnian characters have pretty modest stats: they're decent, but they are still humans. That said, they also need ways to win their fights. An expanded or rebalanced Virtue system might help a lot.

How else can you make Bretonnia feel heroic? Bretonnia should probably be aggressive, and get to grips with the enemy quickly. Heroism is dynamic. Most of its units should be capable of fighting; tarpits and sacrifices and the like don't have the proper feel. All armies need expendable units, but Bretonnia should handle its expendable units carefully. Knights fit this goal pretty well: they fit the Arthurian theme, they are quick and strong, they can be aggressive, and they're valuable enough that you don't want to lose them.

The units you've listed are quite good in this respect. I'm not sure about priests, but healing or protecting magic fits the theme, and I really like the idea of a bard or troubadour hero. Storytelling and inspiring people really fits with the Bretonnian aesthetic, and it's something that no other army does at the moment. I also really like the variety of mounts. A few different types of 'heroic' monsters would fit Bretonnia quite well: what is Bellerophon without Pegasus, or Ruggiero without the hippogryph? We could also include the occasional hero-monster outside of character slots; perhaps a Questing Beast or a peryton or somesuch. It also feels like there is a rich vein of imagery to mine elsewhere in Western European heroic folklore: Robin Hood, Robert the Bruce, Joan of Arc, and so on. That could help diversify Bretonnia a bit more, in terms of imagery and culture.

Offline Jomppexx

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Unfortunately,  Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.

Ludwig isn't MIA, he's with Franz on the way to Altdorf. He was with Valten when he came to Altdorf but Franz and Ludwig went to Averheim and Gregor and Valten ended up being forced north to Middenheim.

You can be sure that Ludwig will bite it. His BFF is dead, so there is nothing in this world left for him anymore. :-P
Except... Beating the crap out of chaos lords and banishing demons.  :closed-eyes:
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Offline Luthor

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« Reply #459 on: January 22, 2015, 08:22:06 PM »
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« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 08:57:56 PM by Luthor »

Offline Mogsam

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I like the grittier Bretonnia that came around. Whilst it is a heroic and fantastical setting, it's also incredibly brutal and a horrible place to live for most people!
Curse you and your ability to stay within the lines.

Offline psychichobo

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Well, oddly, in Khaine, of all the most random characters to live Caradryan is still kicking around. Korhil, Tullaris and Kouran all rode the midnight train to slab city, but Caradryan still seems to be around, despite averting his foreseen death.

So ya never know, there's a chance Ludwig might still be knocking around. Plus, his death would be pretty symbolic, more so than Kurt's - he's the Empire's standard bearer. He's going to be in it at least til the very end.

Offline iatroblast

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...
Regardless I don't think the conclusion takes away from their heroics and sacrifice at the time where they were simply doing what they felt they had to do. They were laying down their lives in hopeless circumstances, and fighting against similar odds, because they felt that it had to be done.

This is why I really don't like Teclis. More than a villain, he is a selfish coward. He is never the one to eat the bullet or take the hit for the team, because its the only possible way forward. He is always the scheming worm who sends better men to die for his selfish goals. It is in those men who are unswerving in the face of all hopelessness, that I find truly heroic and admire.

Well said...  :::cheers::: It's the reason, why i chose the Empire over Bretonnia. The image of a short bald guy with a book and a hammer, against the huge ruthless warrior covered in thick black armour, seemed more appealing to me, from the one of the noble knight and his poor follower.

The reason i don't like High Elves (well, the other reason besides their looks) is that they kind of steal the heroism of that bald fellow. Being the powerful all-good possible saviours of the good guys everywhere, make the above fight irrelevant. In a way, they bring a balance between good and evil, that i don't want to. I'd like to let that hero shine in a world  where everything is getting darker by the hour, so he can stand like the only beacon of light for all the innocents of these troubled times. And he deserves to be treated like that, for he -unlike the elves- has no special abilities, to make his decision easy: will i fight, or will i give up? All he has is a hammer and his book.
So in that respect, in a world where the powerful are either conquerors or uninvolved, our human realm becomes more precious

As for the Mordred issue, when i am playing with evil armies, i usually don't wan't any excuse  :icon_razz: It is fun for me to play with Vampire Counts or Chaos for the fun of destruction.  ::heretic::

Finally I admit Teclis is confusing me. I cannot say if he is forced to act like that for the greater good, or if he is just cruel.  :?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 12:58:57 AM by iatroblast »

Offline Zak

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I love the Empire but I also love anything Human , I have a great dogs of war, Kesliv, and I used to have a beautifully painted Bretonnian army ( one of those regrets sealing it) ...HOWEVER, the empire has so much cool stuff, models, rules, fluff etc. I mean witch hunters, priests, flagellants, smart looking troops, ...I can go on and on... Bretonnia would defiantly benefit from a face lift  :::cheers:::
Yes I'm dyslexic so what

Offline FVC

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Well, oddly, in Khaine, of all the most random characters to live Caradryan is still kicking around. Korhil, Tullaris and Kouran all rode the midnight train to slab city, but Caradryan still seems to be around, despite averting his foreseen death.

'Caradryan' 1) talks and 2) serves Malekith.

Caradryan is already dead.

Offline Baron von Klatz

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First off, a most excellent review of Bretonnia,  FVC, well done.  :eusa_clap:

Now onto Bretonnia being said to be less interesting than the Empire.  I find the reason for that, as was alluded to by FVC, is that the Empire is far more actively written about and having a larger variety of background to focus on. It's a medium-to-high middle ages setting mixed with dark fantasy and a grim parody of "the kingdom" trope, If Bretonnia had recieved more focus on it's less known background or even put as an expansion in the Age of Reckoning mmo it would undoubtedly be almost equaled to the Empire in popularity. 

Novel-wise it has lots of potential, The Black Library could have written of the twelve great battles of Bretonnia or did a similar novel series to the imperial army novels and make stories exemplifying Bretonnia's fourteen virtues. Though some very good stories were written about Bretonnia I feel there was much missed potential.

Concerning Bretonnia on the mmo front if it had made it into Age of Reckoning. The worst outcome of this would have the experience feel copy-and-pasted from the dark age Camelot mmo. Bretonnia would offer a great feel of being a more medieval setting than the Empire but what else could it offer in terms to standout from other similar fantasy genres? In my vision of a Bretonnian setting, it would have sprawling empty fields where danger could swoop down at you out of nowhere (sometimes literally), towering castles in different states of repair with small villages scattered nearby. The places of greatest danger in Bretonnia would range from the deepest parts of the, relatively, small forests to brooding mountains and hills, long abandoned castles and ruins of an era long gone with druid relics scattered about and stinking swamps where the slightest noise can stir the dead.

I think Bretonnia could stand-out in an mmo by going the opposite direction of such games. Instead of being able to instantly find other players and form parties Bretonnian players are mostly on their own within a sprawling country-side where death lurks around every corner. I think it should really focus upon the player as a hero, in that you are by yourself and, though better equipped than someone starting in the Empire, your starting point in Bretonnia would be randomly made and far from other players. Thus scattered, you are to defend villages from hordes of enemy mobs that could easily overwhelm you and fight monsters and dragons that would require a large force to take down. You would be lucky to face a massive dragon with at least one other player who was a questing knight and wandered in on your battle.

Of course for a twist on this, playing as a peasant in such a setting would be opposite. You would start at a town or village along with other such players whochose the humble commoner to combat the tides of evil. This would mean more co-ordination on the peasants part as your numbers are your only advantage as your weaponry would consist of knives, pitchforks and a, very rare, longbow.


Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes. I was thinking of making a list of my idea but unsure how to make it so it would be well-received. My first thoughts were to put hero choices such as Lord of the hunt and Knight of the lists who could unlock new choices for your army and give bonuses to those ranked with them ( exp. Lord of the hunt allows armored war-hounds while making cavalry he's with become fast cav while Knight of the lists gave infantry units either bards, re-roll leadership tests, or jongleurs (enemy re-rolls leadership tests) while making his unit able to re-roll wounds to the enemy.) . If you lads are interested in this concept I might be willing to write down my ideas along with some illustrations.  :wink:
"No battle is ever meaningless for all life is merely death post-poned"
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Offline Philhelm

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How else can you make Bretonnia feel heroic? Bretonnia should probably be aggressive, and get to grips with the enemy quickly. Heroism is dynamic. Most of its units should be capable of fighting; tarpits and sacrifices and the like don't have the proper feel. All armies need expendable units, but Bretonnia should handle its expendable units carefully. Knights fit this goal pretty well: they fit the Arthurian theme, they are quick and strong, they can be aggressive, and they're valuable enough that you don't want to lose them.

The units you've listed are quite good in this respect. I'm not sure about priests, but healing or protecting magic fits the theme, and I really like the idea of a bard or troubadour hero. Storytelling and inspiring people really fits with the Bretonnian aesthetic, and it's something that no other army does at the moment. I also really like the variety of mounts. A few different types of 'heroic' monsters would fit Bretonnia quite well: what is Bellerophon without Pegasus, or Ruggiero without the hippogryph? We could also include the occasional hero-monster outside of character slots; perhaps a Questing Beast or a peryton or somesuch. It also feels like there is a rich vein of imagery to mine elsewhere in Western European heroic folklore: Robin Hood, Robert the Bruce, Joan of Arc, and so on. That could help diversify Bretonnia a bit more, in terms of imagery and culture.

I'd prefer to compare Bretonnia to the Empire since, while Warriors of Chaos are indeed mostly "human," I've always considered them to be in a  completely different league.  The Empire should represent what mundane humans can do when united, which is shown in their combined arms approach, detachment rules, supporting characters, etc.  This is probably why I don't like Demigryph Knights because they seem too fantastical, but I don't mind the Pegasus Knights in the Bretonnian list.  I agree that a Bretonnian army should be heroic (or even villainous!), but also magical and fantastical.

I've always thought that the Bretonnian Knights should be able to purchase Virtues from a separate pool of points from magical items, and that there should be far more Virtues available.  This would make them similar to Vampires with their bloodline powers.  They would have a normal human statline, but would have the ability to be overtly more powerful than Empire characters, in particular the Grandmaster.

In addition, the Bretonnians need more options.  Knights, Men-at-Arms, and Sorceresses is far too narrow compared to the Empire's options which can support many playstyles and themes.  While Bretonnia has the best (human) knights, it doesn't mean that every force has to center around them or even include them for that matter.

Regarding a Bard, I think it could be something like this (for Lord level):

M: 4 / WS: 4 / BS: 4 / S: 4 / T: 3 / W: 3 / A: 3 / I: 4 / Ld: 8
Level 1 Wizard; may upgrade to level 2.
Equipment:  Hand Weapon, Light Armor
Equipment Options:  Shield, Extra Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, Crossbow, Longbow, Warhorse
Heroic Inspiration:  Any unit joined by a Bard receives a +1 bonus to hit in close combat or at range.
Lore:  Once per game the Bard can reveal all of the opponent's equipped magic items within 12" of the Bard.

Offline Philhelm

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Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes.

I included ideas for shadier units since I prefer a Bretonnia of heroes and villains.  Even in the previous, bright and shiny background from 5th Edition, Mousillon existed as evidence of this.  I think options are important since some players may want to field the 'black knights."  A dark lord, an assassin, a sorceress with the Lore of Undeath, some black knights, men-at-arms, and some n'er-do-wells would make for a decent Mousillon list.  As it stands now, there aren't enough options and too many compulsory choices that limit creativity with the Bretonnian list.

Offline Baron von Klatz

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Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes.

I included ideas for shadier units since I prefer a Bretonnia of heroes and villains.  Even in the previous, bright and shiny background from 5th Edition, Mousillon existed as evidence of this.  I think options are important since some players may want to field the 'black knights."  A dark lord, an assassin, a sorceress with the Lore of Undeath, some black knights, men-at-arms, and some n'er-do-wells would make for a decent Mousillon list.  As it stands now, there aren't enough options and too many compulsory choices that limit creativity with the Bretonnian list.

You and me seem to share a similar mind-set friend. I am working on a Bretonnian fan list right now and I've incorporated some of those very ideas. It will take me a few more hours before I present it, working out the rules and some sketches, but I think it will be a interesting take on the Bretonnian army.
"No battle is ever meaningless for all life is merely death post-poned"
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Offline FVC

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Concerning Bretonnia on the mmo front if it had made it into Age of Reckoning. The worst outcome of this would have the experience feel copy-and-pasted from the dark age Camelot mmo.

I don't know, DAoC was pretty cool, from everything I've heard.

I've always thought that the Bretonnian Knights should be able to purchase Virtues from a separate pool of points from magical items, and that there should be far more Virtues available.  This would make them similar to Vampires with their bloodline powers.  They would have a normal human statline, but would have the ability to be overtly more powerful than Empire characters, in particular the Grandmaster.

Something like that, though I'd worry about sinking too many points into a fragile body. Still, I really like customisability - the dwarfs do it really nicely with their runes - so something similar for virtues or chivalric ideals might fit.

Offline Luthor

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This is what I would want for Bretonnia:


New Army Book!!!


Lords:


  • Gilles Le Breton/The Green Knight - He is one kit that makes two different versions of him, both with different profiles. There is the King Gilles version, which should be somewhere in the vicinity of Karl Franz Ascended in terms of power; and The Green Knight, which should be less powerful and cost less points, and cannot be your army's general.
  • Louen Leoncoeur/The Golden Paladin - Again another new kit that makes two different versions of him. Mortal Louen, who is basically who he was prior to dying, riding Bequis; except make him weapon skill 8 and give him Heroic Killing Blow. And then there is The Golden Paladin version, which is another End Times blow out character in terms of power.
  • Mallobaude of Mousillon - Basically your evil Black Knight 'Mordred' general of your army if you are themed around Mousillon.
  • The Red Duke - Another evil Vampire Bretonnian spin-off, and interesting in that he could allow you to combine Vampire Count units with Bretonnian units. But at a cost; such as you can't have obvious sanctified goodly types like Grail Knights, and the fanatical Battle Pilgrims and Reliquay that follow them. You can't have Damsels or Enchantresses either, because they also serve the Lady of the Lake. You could probably make Mallobaude and The Red Duke a dual kit also.
  • The Fay Enchantress - Keep her current model, because it is fantastic. But yeah, Morgiana Le Fay is dead, so she can either be historical, or they can introduce a newly anointed Fey Enchantress.
  • Bohemond of Bastonne - Old 5th edition character, and Duke of Bastonne. The descendant of Gilles bloodline himself. Besides Louen Leoncoeur, he is the most powerful Bretonnian Duke and Grail Knight there is. He needs a model, and what I really like about him is that he wields a giant two handed mace called the Beastslayer of Bohemond.
  • Grail Lord - This is essentially a beefed up Lord who also supped from the grail. He is more focused on serving the Lady and slaying evil monstrosities and enemies of Bretonnia, and those the Lady deems the enemy of Bretonnia; while the typical Lord also has to maintain his realm and people and so forth, and evidently having never supped from the Grail, is not the same calibre warrior and monster slayer.
  • Bretonnian Lord - Represents the Lords and Dukes who never supped from the Grail for one reason or another. Stat line the same as the Empire Grand Master.
  • Enchantress - Stock standard Lord version of the Damsels who serve the Lady of the Lake. Able to be level 4 spell casters, wielding you lore of Life and Beasts.
Heroes:


  • Jerrod of Quenelles - The new Paladin Standard Bearer of Bretonnia; after the death of Tancred II.
  • Repanse De Lyonese - Old 5th edition character. A historical character, and Paladin Standard Bearer. You could make Jerrod and Repanse and dual kit.
  • Baron Odo de Outremer - Historical Bretonnian character from the crusades against Araby. He could be a Paladin Hero with 'The Morning Star of Fracesse' which destroys his opponents magical weapons.
  • Suliman the Saracen - Historical Bretonnian character from 5th edition also. Have him do something with Questing Knights.         
  • Jaspiere the Dragon Slayer - 5th edition character. Paladin hero with a lance, on a Pegasus with some kind of affinity towards killing Dragons.
  • Tristram le Troubadour and Jules le Jongluer - Old 5th Edition heroes. Give them both some sort of Bardic affinity and abilities that help Knights of the Realm and Knights Errant. Jules le Jongluer separately could be used to bolster a Men at Arms regiment.
  • Bertrand de Berac, Hugo le Petie and Gui le Gros - The Robin Hood and his Merry Men trio and old 5th edition characters. Revamp their old 5th edition rules and make their purpose to bolster a unit of Bretonnian Bowmen.
  • Calard of Garamont - The main character of the Knights of Bretonnia omnibus. He could be a sort of Grail Knight Paladin with a Hero level statline.
  • Paladin - Stock standard Paladin. He should be slightly better at killing things than an Empire Captain.
  • Damsel - Stock standard Bretonnian magic user with the lore of Beasts and Life. Servant of the Lady of the Lake.
  • Grail Pilgrim - A sort of maniacal looking fat Friar/ Medieval Priest character. Who wears light armour and a brown robe, and wields a giant two handed mace. He is sort of like a less effective Empire Warrior Priest. Fit him into a regiment of Battle Pilgrims, who can now be fielded without the Grail Reliquay.
Core Units:


  • Knights of the Realm - Their model kit is good as it is.
  • Knights Errant - Uses the same kit as the Knights of the Realm.
  • Villainous Wardens of Mousillon - Sort of like evil Knights of the Realm, who are themed around being used in an army headed by Mallobaude or The Red Duke. Knights who have lost their honour and so forth. They could be have some interesting special rules.
  • Men at Arms - Still a good model kit.
  • Peasant Bowmen - Still a good model kit.
  • Brigands - Sort of like followers of Bertrand, or imitators, since he is a kind of figure of folk lore. They wear light armour, and wield long bows and carry hand weapons, and possibly skirmish.
  • Bretonnian Hunting Party - Yeomen, who are privileged Peasants, on horses, with large hunting hounds running alongside them. They have hand weapons, spears and long bows.
  • Mounted Yeomen - A standard regiment of Yeomen Riders. This could be a dual kit with the Bretonnian Hunting Party.
Special Units:


  • Questing Knights - They need a plastic kit, although the fine cast models are some of my favourite Games Workshop models ever made. Especially the four limited run versions that are long gone.
  • Battle Pilgrims - They need a plastic kit, although their current models still look amazing to me. You shouldn't need a Grail Reliquay to field them.
  • Grail Reliquay - Another amazing model. But needs a big new kit with all the bells and whistles of modern times.
  • Pegasus Knights - The model kit is good. They need to bring back the box set where you can buy three in one box. Pegasi need three wounds, and Stomp, and to be treated as monstrous cavalry.
  • Spirit Knights/Host (Is that what they are called?) - The ones who are the male children who have been taken from Bretonnia throughout the centuries, by the Lady of the Lake, and they saved Louen Leoncoeur's life when he was young. Give them some interesting rules, like being able to pass through terrain or something, and incorporeal.
Rare Units:


  • Trebuchet - Nice model, but it needs a plastic kit.
  • Grail Knights - Need a plastic kit also. Their 6th edition models are still very nice though. Need to be toughness 4, Regeneration, and Stubborn, on top of Living Saint of Bretonnia, and The Grail Vow. Also need a unit champion with an extra attack; even though they are all supposed to be unit champions.
  • Altar of the Lady - A type of Bretonnian themed buff wagon, that is either a rare unit, or a Damsel or Enchantress can use as a mount.
  • Avatar of the Lady - Dual kit with the Altar of the Lady - basically a giant elemental water spirit that brings the pain/or alternatively could be some kind of super lore of life healing force and power for your army.
  • Bretonnian mounts for characters: Bretonnian Warhorses (ignore the -1 to movement from barding), Pegasus, Hypogryph and the Altar of the Lady for Damsels and Enchantresses.

Offline Zak

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looks good to me  :::cheers:::
Yes I'm dyslexic so what

Offline FVC

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This is what I would want for Bretonnia:

Quick thoughts:

Ugh, no Gilles and no spirit-Louen, please. Don't get your End Times all over my Bretonnia. Just keep the Green Knight, though preferably make him worth taking.

Mallobaude isn't a vampire. I like the idea of including him, maybe with some options to change the way the army is constructed, though. You'd need to give him some options to compensate for removing all of the stuff about the Lady, though.

No Heavens on the Prophetess any more? I was thinking it might be nice to allow Light and perhaps even Fire. Maybe restore the old Empire-educated court wizards as well. I'd like a Merlin or two.

Moving yeomen to core is nice, and gives them a reason to exist alongside pegasus knights.

Regarding spirits: the fate of the boy-children is only mentioned in 'The Court Beneath', but that story sucks, so let's not bother. I'd rather keep them mysterious or else redo a lot of the kidnapping backstory. In any case. Ghosts are a Vampire Count thing. You might be able to do a bit with spirit knights, I guess.

New monsters seem fine, though the Lady doesn't really have altars as such. Keep the war altar as an Empire thing.

As a general summary:

This is a very conservative list of proposed changes. Add some characters, tinker with a few units, but ultimately keep the army pretty much the same as it is right now. It would probably work fine, but there's nothing that makes me stand up and say, "Yes! That's a great improvement!"

Offline Sig

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He is a Vampire in the End Times. No reason not to have him as one. A bit of flavour for an alternate list.

The Bret background needs expanding to allow a decent overhaul.

Offline Xathrodox86

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I loved that you mentioned guys like Bertrand and Saracen, whom are really obscure by today's standards. With a list like that, even I could play Bretonnia. And I hate Bretonnia, so that's that. :biggriin:
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