Topic: 2k list

[The Peacemaker]

I do feel my bsb is not protected enough. Maybe I'll drop dragonbow and spam charmed shields. But he's not really intended for combat, i just need him for re-rolls and zoning and the dragon bow plus steam tank cannon + magic shooting is just enough to weaken a few enemy units before my army engages.

Overall strategy is to maneuver around to get good charges. I included musicians in knights for core points but also for rallying Since i will most certainly have to flee some enemy charges. Captains Rallying Cry will hopefully help with this. I can't bring myself to use the abysmal state troops, everytime I try to make a list I just want to switch armies.

Steam tank holds the center which will allow me options to maneuver or use a weighted flank strategy. So I don't necessarily need to go first. I'd rather see where my opponents units are.

Tactic against enemy dragon/strong monster is to shoot with dragon bow & steam cannon, hopefully do a couple wounds, then probably sacrifice champs until end of game or maybe get a combo charge.

Wizard on Griffon I'm excited about. Battle magic seems good for the signature assailment spell. Since spells are random I'm expecting at least 1 dud spell like curse of arrow attraction.
I tanked him up with bedazling helm and white cloak so he should be hard to kill. This guy is more of my wild card, the flying lets him move to where he is needed to reinforce/zone(same with BSB.

Demigryphs are my heavy hitters. I would take a 3rd unit instead of outriders but that would come out of characters, and gosh darnit I'm going to use my Beast Wizard model on Imperial Griffon at least once in a game in my lifetime!

# Main Force [2000pts]

## Characters [887pts]
Captain of the Empire [162pts]:
• 1x Captain of the Empire [162pts]: Hand Weapon, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer, War Banner, Pegasus, Lance, Full Plate Armour, Dragon Bow

Grand Master [295pts]:
• 1x Grand Master [295pts]: Hand Weapon, Shield, General, Demigryph, Full Plate Armour, Sword of Justice, Charmed Shield, Laurels of Victory
Wizard Lord [430pts]:
• 1x Wizard Lord [430pts]: Hand Weapon, Imperial Griffon, Wizard Level 4, Battle Magic, Bedazzling Helm, The White Cloak
]

Core: 500
4Knights, champ, musician
4Knights, champ, musician
4Knights, champ, musician
4Knights, champ, musician
4knights, champ, musician

2demigryph, plate, champ
2demigryph, plate, champ
4outriders with sharpshooter

Steam Tank

[Athiuen]

Swap the dragon bow for 4 charmed shields for the BSB and an extra 1 for the Grand Master.

[Clymer]

Live your beast (wizard) life!

I think that guy is pretty good really, now that he can't be swatted off the back of the gryph.

You might want to swap the sword of justice for the sword of battle... the extra attack and higher strength might work better with the laurels.

Also, it looks like your Grand Master is pay for both a shield and charmed shield. There you: saved you 3 points 

Otherwise, I think this would be a pretty strong list, pulling off multiple cav charges throughout the game. It could get tricky to coordinate mid-to-late game as a lot of your cav will over-run, and run down fleers over very long distances. I've noticed with my demigryphs that they only get one or two combats and then spend the rest of the game trying to turn around and move back into the battle.

Last point I'll make is that a lot of comp rules are going to have the rule of threes in place, which would preclude having so many units of knights. Your local gaming friends might also find it a bit spammy. I don't personally think it's the craziest army build in the world, but opinions will vary.

[Clymer]

Can the wizard lord take the bedazzling helm? I don't think so. It's armor.

[Warlord]

I can't bring myself to use the abysmal state troops, everytime I try to make a list I just want to switch armies.

I am really starting to feel that too.

I guess my question is, would a bigger unit of knights with some command be better than 2 units? As in, in some ways it gives your opponent a perceived threat to target their magic or shooting against. To you, its just a throw away unit with some extra models, but them it looks more threatening.... This is actually the direction I am considering taking in my list at the moment.
Just a thought.

[The Peacemaker]

Can the wizard lord take the bedazzling helm? I don't think so. It's armor.

New Recruit allows it... so I think it's allowed?

I can't bring myself to use the abysmal state troops, everytime I try to make a list I just want to switch armies.

I am really starting to feel that too.

I guess my question is, would a bigger unit of knights with some command be better than 2 units? As in, in some ways it gives your opponent a perceived threat to target their magic or shooting against. To you, its just a throw away unit with some extra models, but them it looks more threatening.... This is actually the direction I am considering taking in my list at the moment.
Just a thought.

I was also thinking a about taking a 2 small knights and a bigger block if I encounter the 0-3 cap. But I'm unsure how wide and long to run them. I could run them 6x2, with full command and a warbanner, and stubborn. Gives me an extra 2 combat res from the banners. And lots extra unit strength. ...but so does combo charging.

By the time my meta adopts 0-3 rule, I'll probably have switched to an elf army anyway, lol.

[Dazgrim]

Can the wizard lord take the bedazzling helm? I don't think so. It's armor.

New Recruit allows it... so I think it's allowed?

It might be allowed, but armour will stop the wizard from casting spells.

[PowerSeries]

I think stacking charmed shields doesn't do anything.  Each shield says "on the first wound taken", so you get 4 ward saves, but then ward saves don't stack and they expire.

[The Peacemaker]

Can the wizard lord take the bedazzling helm? I don't think so. It's armor.

New Recruit allows it... so I think it's allowed?

It might be allowed, but armour will stop the wizard from casting spells.

Hmm, good to know.
Is a combat wizard still viable without some extra protection? Hes on a Griffon, not a dragon.

[The Peacemaker]

I think stacking charmed shields doesn't do anything.  Each shield says "on the first wound taken", so you get 4 ward saves, but then ward saves don't stack and they expire.

Consensus is that it works but you just have to roll 1 wound at a time.

[The Peacemaker]

So i've been double checking rules. Charachers can only take 1 shield. The bedazling helm blocks wizard from casting.

So I revised:
Charmed shield still pretty good, especially since it costs 3pts since I don't have to buy regular shield. ...although my total is 1996 I don't really save in this particular list, lol.

Anyway, since I can't take bedazling helm on wizard, I opted for Healing potion which really helps him survive the battle. Bitting blade is cheap enough that it might help get a wound in with his 2 attacks. Earthong Rod is cheap and useful - might even be able to re-roll miscast into a big blast template while in combat, lol.

I'm sticking with sword of justice on Grand Master rather than the more expensive Sword of battle. Justice has re-roll to wound which is more reliable. And I do intend this huy to hunt multiwound enemies. If sword of battle was 50pts I might be inclined to swap.

# Main Force [1996pts]

## Characters [883pts]
Captain of the Empire [165pts]: Hand Weapon, Lance, Pegasus, Full Plate Armour, Battle Standard Bearer, War Banner, Charmed Shield, Dragon Bow

Grand Master [293pts]: Hand Weapon, Demigryph, Barding, Full Plate Armour, General, Charmed Shield, Sword of Justice, Laurels of Victory

Wizard Lord [425pts]: Hand Weapon, Wizard Level 4, Battle Magic, Imperial Griffon, Heavy Armour, Two Heads, Earthing Rod, Biting Blade, Healing Potion, The White Cloak

[Dazgrim]

I think stacking charmed shields doesn't do anything.  Each shield says "on the first wound taken", so you get 4 ward saves, but then ward saves don't stack and they expire.

Consensus is that it works but you just have to roll 1 wound at a time.

Where is this concensus?

[The Peacemaker]

I think stacking charmed shields doesn't do anything.  Each shield says "on the first wound taken", so you get 4 ward saves, but then ward saves don't stack and they expire.

Consensus is that it works but you just have to roll 1 wound at a time.

Where is this concensus?

In the other threads with lots of people "checking" the rules.

So i've been double checking rules. Charachers can only take 1 shield. The bedazling helm blocks wizard from casting.

And by "checking" the rules, I actually mean they did NOT check the rules, lol. As I pointed out in the post above yours.

Edit: oops, looks like I was wrong. *Common items override the rule for carrying 1 shield
 

[The Peacemaker]

Ok ok ok. Final adjustments after getting to grips with various rules and doing some math.

Wizard is now illusion magic with mace of helstrom. Obviously hoping for doppleganger spell. Now since you can ONLY cast assailment spells in combat, this guy really is just a scary zoner. I don't want to be in combat for long so his zoning will allow the rest of my army to get good charges.
I went with white cloak since a 5++, and 3+vs fire is decent on 7 wounds.
And this frees up points for more charmed shields on other characters which gives me more security for General/BSB.

Mace combo looks like a fun whacky build that I want to try since I doubt I'll play Empire for long since the book is so bad.

# Main Force [1996pts]

## Characters [883pts]
Captain of the Empire [170pts]: Hand Weapon, Lance, Pegasus, Full Plate Armour, Battle Standard Bearer, War Banner, 2x Charmed Shield, Dragon Bow

Grand Master [298pts]: Hand Weapon, Demigryph, Barding, Full Plate Armour, General, 2x Charmed Shield, Sword of Justice, Laurels of Victory

Wizard Lord [415pts]: Hand Weapon, Wizard Level 4, Illusion, Imperial Griffon, Heavy Armour,  Mace of Helsturm, The White Cloak

[The Peacemaker]

So I played my first 2 games today.
First match was doubles. My Empire + cheesy high elves VS Skaven + KoE.

It was fun. Highlights was Doppleganger plus mace of helstrom getting 7 hits on KoE Lord on Hippo. I rolled four 1's to wound, then KoE made hos 5+ ward on the other 3. Then KoE Lord Beat my Wizard Griffin down to 1 wound. ....i think I made like 1 of myb5+ wards.
I got him the next round though. ....then gambled with my 1 wound Griffin by charging his KoR unit, they fled from terror check and I caught he whole unit.
Other side of board didn't look good for my Demi's and General Vs more KoE and Hellpit. But luck swung my way and demi's eventually won. Steam tank sat in middle shooting cannon

2nd game was my Empire Vs KoE. I rushed his knights(no peasants, invalid list but og well). Lots of combats. Steam tank killed BSB first round of shooting(he rolled a 1 for look out sir). A bit of back and forth in the combats. Steam tank died to Hippo Duke. But I eventually won the game but things could have easily swung the other way if it wasn't for my wizard Griffon mace combo.

Overall the small knight spam works backed up with demigryph heavy hitters. I really took advantage of those champs to take challenges.
The GrandMarshal did a decent job.

The champions tended to survive alot and really slowed down the KoE advance. The penalty for refusing challenge for KoE is big since they lose blessing.
KoE kept forgetting about "no step up" so he got 1-2 extra attacks here and there. But oh well, we also forgot about double unit strength until the end which would have affected a few things, but I also would have changed strategy.

Final thoughts:
Overall the game is HeroHammer with weak stats units just pushing around  until you can get Heroes/elites into the appropriate combats to get their points. Wizard griffin with Mace amd doppelganger was totally a crutch for the army - not alot of other ways to get enough attacks to actually eliminate opponents and get the game going. It is sort of Balanced because opponents have access to lords on mounts too.
Because of the super steadfast FBIGO mechanic, combats tended to go on for a few rounds. Which made it feel like combat because we were rolling dice. Which was fun.
MSU is totally the way to go for list building for Empire. Not much need for big units when you can just combo charge and get models in for more unit strength. That being said, one medium/big unit isn't terrible and will probably be an ok anvil which will let pther units maneuver.

[Warlord]

“KoE” betrays your 9th age past 

[The Peacemaker]

“KoE” betrays your 9th age past 

Lol, yes it does. My group is entirely former T9A players at the moment.

--------------------------

Another thing from my games. The Laurels of Victory on grand master isn't that good, losing/winning combat in this game isn't too big a deal with everyone having supersteadfast. Sword of Justice was ok. The Ap1 wasn't very good though. And since the role of the Heroes is this game is too kill stuff, I think I'll be ditching Laurels of victory. I like the Sword of Justice but I think I'll be trying out the Paymasters coin as the ability to re-roll 3-4 attacks on an accidental wiff in a game where the model may only fight 2-3 rounds is pretty significant. And I still got points for 3 charmed shields.

[Warlord]

Good point about Laurels.
Perhaps its good in a unit where you will be guaranteed to double outnumber your opponent?

[PowerSeries]

Yeah I was disapointed in my game vs Bretonnia with the Sword of Justice.  I think I will try the Ogre blade next time.  I need AP, and the extra strength would help too.  I think I prefer Multiple Wounds (2) over (d3), as I was killing pegasus knights with it (as long as they don't pass their saves!).

[The Peacemaker]

Sword of justice is good, but just average against Brets.
I think Laurels is very meta dependant. Like you want this on a lord with duelist blades in a unit with lots of unit strength. Then you go fight an enemy unit with lots of wounds that would take forever to kill conventionally and try to break and run it down by being double their unit strength. But combat res just isn't that great with supersteadfast. Not for 40pts anyway.

For power gaming I prefer the multiwound 2 over D3 as well. It's more reliable. D3 can spike low or high. But I enjoy some randomness in my dice games and D3 is a great mechanic for that. I'm honestly surprised GW even put multiwound 2 in the game along side D3. It's too reliable for a dice game. I didn't like it when T9A started switching everything to multiwound 2 either.

[The Peacemaker]

 I'm going to try this one next.
I'm not worried about the 0-3 limit as many armies do not like that rule for core. So i suspect TO's will make it only for non-core units.
 
I dropped Laurels of Victory which freed up points for Two Heads on the Griffin which make helps if I don't roll the dopplerganger spell or it gets dispelled. Edit: i just noticed the "two heads) makes you use 2 attacks on it rather than 1 so i'll be dropping it and save 20pts. I'd rather have the AP.

And I changed the Pegasus BSB to a demigryph BSB. Which makes him a combat threat and gives more defense but the loss of Fly might be problematic for getting the BSB into good positions for the bubble and line of sight for the dragon bow. 

I'm keeping the outriders for now. I'm hoping their shooting will plunk wounds off small units. But if I can find the points to drop them for another demigryph unit then that might be better.

I am excited to play this list now that I've had a couple games and know the rules a bit better.
With the way Close Order stacks, and unit strength is added from all the units in combat(page 154), I don't see myself ever taking big units for empire. And rarely for other factions unless they got good rules that support it(like Bret lance formation or Men at armes horde & 4pts per peasant model). But even then the I'll make sure to have lots of MSU along side those 1-2 bigger units.

Main Force [2000pts]

Captain of the Empire: 190pts
Dragon Bow, 2x Charmed Shield, Battle Standard Bearer, War Banner, Full Plate Armour, Demigryph, Lance

Grand Master: 258pts
Sword of Justice, 2x Charmed Shield, General, Full Plate Armour, Demigryph

Wizard Lord: 435pts
The White Cloak, Mace of Helsturm, Imperial Griffon, Two Heads, Illusion, Wizard Level 4

Core: 500
4 Knights, champ, musician 100pts
4 Knights, champ, musician 100pts
4 Knights, champ, musician 100pts
4 Knights, champ, musician 100pts
4 knights, champ, musician 100pts

2demigryph, plate, champ 133pts
2demigryph, plate, champ 133pts
4outriders with sharpshooter 82pts

Steam Tank 265pts

[commandant]

Is it possible to find 30 points for banners on those knight units as the banner will double their CR, at least for 1 unit

[The Peacemaker]

Is it possible to find 30 points for banners on those knight units as the banner will double their CR, at least for 1 unit

Banners don't seem to stack in combat as far as I can read in the rules. Which is terrible game design considering banners also give up and extra 50? Points when captured. Better to chase close order MSU.

That being said, 1 banner on 1 knight unit is worth it. Just gotta gbe careful when using the unit is all, which is easy to do. I might try it since I am short 1 knight model and that model is indeed the banner guy, lol.
I did edit my post because two heads on griffin isn't worth 20pts for most matchups.

[commandant]

True but it was never the case that more than 1 banner gave CR I believe. Well except the BSB's army banner

[The Peacemaker]

In 8th edition I'm pretty sure banners stacked. Which is the only edition I played except for 2 games in 6th before i decided I hated no steadfast and front rank dying , then quit.