Topic: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers

[KPhan1212]

It's no secret that Infantry is in a terrible place in TOW. I see a lot of people (including myself) offering houserules as solutions but I don't think I've seen anyone do a deep dive into the numbers.

Ideally, a block of infantry should have a good chance of winning combat or stalemating against a unit of cavalry of equal or lesser points. And its a question of how much Combat Res they can output. With that in mind, I created a unit of State Troopers and Empire Knights with as close to points value as possible and calculated their average Combat Res.

For the State Troops, I used 165 pts to make a unit of 25 models with Halberds/Spears and Full Command arranged in a 5x5 block.
For the Empire Knights, I used 166pts to make a unit of 7 models with a Preceptor and Standard Bearer arranged in a line.

The assumptions that I'm making are:

• Empire Knights will always get their charge.
• The first rank of State Troops are always killed, leaving behind the champion (and supporting rank for spears).
• State Troops lose combat, but always roll well enough to Give Ground.
• Average Kills = (Number of Attacks)(To Hit)(To Wound)(Armor Save)

25 State Troops (5x5) Combat Res

• Close Order: +1
• Standard Bearer: +1
• Rank Bonus: +2 (Negated by First Charge)
• Kills made by Champion w/ Halberd: 0-2 (avg 0.33)
• Kills made by Fighting Rank w/ Halberd: 0-6 (avg 1)
• Kills made by Champion plus Supporting Attacks w/ Spear: 0-7 (avg 0.58)
• Kills made by Fighting Rank plus Supporting Attacks w/ Spear:0-11 (avg 0.96)

7 Empire Knights (7x1) Combat Res

• Close Order: +1
• Standard Bearer: +1
• Kills made by Knights w/ Lance: 0-8 (avg 4.44)
• Kills made by Knights w/ Hand Weapons: 0-8 (avg 2.22)
• Kills made by Warhorses: 0-8 (avg 1.45)

Results
Average Combat Res of Halberdiers is:

• 4.33 after getting charged or 2.33 (if First Charge removes Rank Bonus)
• 5 after giving ground and fighting on the next combat phase

Average Combat Res of Spearmen is:

• 4.58 after getting charged or 2.58 (if First Charge removes Rank Bonus)
• 4.96 after giving ground and fighting on the next combat phase

Average Combat Res of Empire Knights is:

• 7.89 on the turn that it charged
• 5.67 after State Troops give ground and they're fighting with hand weapons

Conclusion
So Empire Knights on the charge against an equal points value of State Troops will on average win combat by 3-6 points and even if those state troops roll really well on the Break Test and Give Ground, will probably still lose combat on the next turn.

I think the cause of the issue is how Fighting Ranks work in TOW. In previous editions, both the Static CR and the Killing CR were limited in some way. Static CR was arbitrarily limited (with a cap to rank bonus, etc) while Killing CR was limited by how many models were in base to base contact. Now in TOW the entire Fighting Rank can take part in combat, effectively unshackling the Killing CR that a unit can generate. You can infinitely increase a units Killing CR by adding and more points into it and increasing the width of the formation, but you can't do the something comparable with Static CR.

With all that in mind, what do you guys think would be a good solution to the issue with infantry? Personally I think re-introducing the base to base requirement for models in a unit to fight and requiring units to maximize contact after a charge. Also adding back the outnumber bonus to combat res in order to nudge infantry into being competitive against cavalry units of the same "tier" and points cost, but not going so far as to make the elite cavalry units useless. My logic behind my conclusion is that a heavy cavalry unit charging an equivalent points of infantry unit should have the same CR or slightly favoring the heavy cavalry by 1 and that increasing to a 3 if they still have first charge. Then when the infantry rolls the break test and give ground, suddenly they have the higher CR output due to the cavalry losing momentum from their intial charge.

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

Why on earth are there ten halberdiers at the back doing nothing? Just waiting to die? How could such a strategy ever win?

Split that same halberdier unit into 3.  13, with a frontage of 7, and 2 x6 detachments in one rank

The knights charge the parent unit, the two detachments counter charge into their flank.

Static cr wise the halberdiers just went from cr4 to cr6 before any dice are rolled. And instead of 6 attacks at best, you've got 20.

Now on the charge the donkey wallopers might still have the edge...but I reckon those odds are a darn sight closer!

[Skyros]

Split that same halberdier unit into 3.  13, with a frontage of 7, and 2 x6 detachments in one rank

Do you think this is an actual useful unit that you see in tournament lists? Or is this just some very strange formation you've concocted just to maximize their chances in an arbitrary hypothetical face off?

And isn't this really just line hammer with extra steps? I think the odds get even better for the halberdiers if they are all in just one huge long line throwing all their attacks in every single fight. 25 halberd attacks into a unit of knights causes not inconsiderable damage.

Maybe linehammer was the developers attempt at making infantry relevant?

The knights charge the parent unit, the two detachments counter charge into their flank.

Why would the knights charge the parent instead of charging the detachments?

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

Split that same halberdier unit into 3.  13, with a frontage of 7, and 2 x6 detachments in one rank

Do you think this is an actual useful unit that you see in tournament lists? Or is this just some very strange formation you've concocted just to maximize their chances in an arbitrary hypothetical face off?

The knights charge the parent unit, the two detachments counter charge into their flank.

Why would the knights charge the parent instead of charging the detachments?

For starters both units in the OPs post are hypothetical units for a hypothetical match up.  And secondly, yes I have used that formation in a tournament. 

I came 2nd overall. ( but it was only a little tourney    ) in fact in one of the games it went up against a traditional empire "big block" anvil unit as per the OP.  Guess which won?

Detachments get ignored by none empire players for being too small to care about. And secondly if they stand back an inch they can't be charged without coming into contact with the parent unit anyway.

You don't want the parent unit frontage too long or the detachments can't reach  of course.

[Skyros]

Both the OP's formations are the typical ones that you see every day, a block of infantry, a line of knights.

Empire detachments are most certainly not ignored by any player who has any idea what they are doing. They are easy points and great ways to cause panic. A single magic missile or even a couple shots from an otherwise pointless BS based shooting unit are enough to see them off. My experience has been they are just below light cavalry in terms of drawing fire.

The bottom line is that empire detachments are basically inferior to just doing linehammer, as the detachments are much more susceptible to panic and not being able to get all their attacks in due to terrain or the wrong part of the unit being charged, etc.

40 halberdiers in a line getting charged in the front get all their attacks all the time, even if half the unit is behind another, or terrain, and can't do a charge this turn.. But 24 halberdiers in a 3x8, with two detachments in a 1x8 on either side, can easily find themselves obstructed by terrain or other units and be unable to concentrate their forces with the multiple charges needing to connect

It's ironic, but detachments dilute your forces instead of concentrating them.

"And secondly if they stand back an inch they can't be charged without coming into contact with the parent unit anyway."

That doesn't seem to be true

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

Yes. And in this case still hypothetical.
 But I started off TOW using the 25 man blocks. They got hammered.

I switched to lines with detachments, and Ive won all but one game since.

Can I just point out as well that the OPs scenario isn't a fight between two units of equal points? The infantry wasted a third of their points on figures that play no part in the calculations at all. Obviously a unit of fully utilised figures will defeat a unit with one hand tied behind its back very easily...so untie their hands!
 

[Skyros]

I think infantry in lines is still weak, but you're right that for certain units, it seems to do better than infantry in blocks. A couple infantry in blocks are mostly pointless.

Also, infantry in the rear ranks aren't doing nothing, they are contributing +1 CR. This is more than you are expected to generate from 5 infantry stabbing with spears, for example, into knights.

Of course, they reduced the # of ranks that can give static CR which was a big mistake IMO.  The final rank of guys is there as padding to ensure a single magic missile or handful of BS Shooting doesn't knock out your rank bonus. Again, much more a good idea when the infantry is sensibly costed, instead of overcosted.

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

But u aren't getting a rank bonus anyway against charging Knights.

Turn the argument on its head.

Let's charge 7 Knights with a frontage of 3, in 2 ranks and a spare, into the halberdiers.   Would we expect the Knights to do well? Of course not.

Do we need to houserule the game into submission to make it work...or just deploy them into line?

And the ten halberdiers at the back don't add +1 to anything ...unless u split them off to make detachments out of . Then they add more than +1

[Skyros]

To be honest, I don't think cavalry should ever have gotten first charge either.

Which again, pushes you to linehammer. I think we both agree on that.

You think detachments are better than just a line, I think the reverse, but we both agree big infantry blocks are pointless, which I think was the point of the original post.

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

I think we can agree there.

But i get the impression a lot of people seemingly would prefer to "fix" the game , rather than change their tactics

[drweir4]

I think on detachments specifically they need the rules to work within 6” of the parent and more special rules need to transfer like hold the line from empire captains

I’d also make a rule called “formation” tactics or something which says anyone who can declare a charge on the parent unit must do so instead of charging a detachment they can also charge

Those things would at least make detachments useable in the rules

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

I'd agree with the special rules thing; immune to psych is transferable but immune to panic isn't? I mean honestly GW.
But it's nice that hatred and stubborn transfer over too.

But overall I don't think imperial infantry 'need' it as such.

Our infantry is stronger than you think!

[Skyros]

I think we can agree there.

But i get the impression a lot of people seemingly would prefer to "fix" the game , rather than change their tactics

I mean, why not both? I've basically cut infantry from my lists because they aren't good even in linehammer.
But I *want* them to be good. I want to see big colorful ranked blocks of infantry on the field!
Until then I guess I'll just keep winning with my monster/cavalry/magic lists.

[commandant]

Both the OP's formations are the typical ones that you see every day, a block of infantry, a line of knights.

While it is true that these formations are typical it does not follow that they are optimal.   The formation suggested by Edwin von Dufflecoat might be more optimal for those armies which have close order detachments as 2 close order detachments in the combat provide the same (and possibly +1 static combat res over 2 ranks.).   

Therefore when considering our theory hammer we need to consider what is optimal as well as what is typical.   What is the problems with what we consider optimal and so on.

Empire detachments are most certainly not ignored by any player who has any idea what they are doing. They are easy points and great ways to cause panic. A single magic missile or even a couple shots from an otherwise pointless BS based shooting unit are enough to see them off. My experience has been they are just below light cavalry in terms of drawing fire.

Empire detachments might be easy points. I have some thoughts about that depending on deployment but they are not great ways to cause panic.   In fact the Empire as a whole army is basically unconcerned about panic in most of its important units.   This is because of the Hold the Line upgrade which allows units that contain a captain or General of the Empire (which is going to be at least 2 (army general and BSB) of your important units.

Are they easy points?   This I am not sure of.   Empire detachments should be really difficult to charge by anything that is wider than the detachment itself if you deploy them really close to the parent unit.   It was pointed out to me at the GT in Ireland that friend units don't need the inch separation that opposing units need anymore.   I haven't looked into the rules for this but the person who pointe it out to me is generally good with the rules so I assumed he was correct.   if he was not please update me here.
This means that if I deploy my detachment 1 mm back from the front of the parent unit and 1 mm to the side of the parent unit it will be really really really difficult (remembering that in TOW you must move in straight lines and can only wheel once during a charge and you must take the shortest route) for a unit which is wider than the detachment to charge the detachment without overspilling into the parent unit.
If a unit must contact the parent unit during the charge then it must also declare a charge against he parent unit, allowing the other detachment to act (Page 130 of the BRB), because the parent unit can declare its own reaction.
If this happens then it counts as a disordered charge which does not give the charging unit a I bonus.   This disordered charge would power up halberdiers against anything which is I3 because they would be hitting at the same time.

Therefore it might be reasonable to deploy your detachments 5 wide, because there is very little which less than 5 inches wide which 5 halberdiers are afraid of, which is not a monster of some kind.   

You think detachments are better than just a line, I think the reverse,

 

The reason detachments are better than a line is because a line is very very immobile.   Like a 16 inch long line can only wheel 57 degrees in a full turn of movement if it does nothing else. A 24 inch line can only wheel 40 degrees if it does nothing else.

[KPhan1212]

Why on earth are there ten halberdiers at the back doing nothing? Just waiting to die? How could such a strategy ever win?

Split that same halberdier unit into 3.  13, with a frontage of 7, and 2 x6 detachments in one rank

The knights charge the parent unit, the two detachments counter charge into their flank.

Static cr wise the halberdiers just went from cr4 to cr6 before any dice are rolled. And instead of 6 attacks at best, you've got 20.

Now on the charge the donkey wallopers might still have the edge...but I reckon those odds are a darn sight closer!

Why would anyone target the parent unit unless they were completely clueless about the detachment rules or were just humoring your idea? Think about it, everyone can see this coming a mile away. Lets brainstorm what would actually happen with a competent player.

• Opponent sees your detachments with your parent unit.
• Opponent declares charge on detachment and your response is either to hold or flee.
• If you hold, the detachment gets destroyed and now your parent unit must make a panic test. If you flee, opponent redirects charge to your other detachment.
• If you hold, the second detachment gets destroyed and your parent unit must make a panic test. If you flee, your opponent will make the charge and accidentally get into contact with your parent unit and destroy it now that it has no detachments supporting it.

Competent players will not fall for your trick or they will deliberately go into it because they know they can overcome it. I've tried your idea on other players and what I stated above happens 100% of the time. Detachments are absolutely useless against anyone playing beyond the level of a newbie.

But i get the impression a lot of people seemingly would prefer to "fix" the game , rather than change their tactics

People are hesitant to change tactics because the rules don't resemble reality to a reasonable expectation. Anyone with even a passing interest in ancient warfare knows that a thin formation has no chance of stopping a cavalry charge. The cavalry will blow right through it like a speed bump. I know the immediate rebuttal is that the game takes place in a fantasy world with magic and monsters. And I totally get that, I'm not complaining about the fantastical parts of the setting. But the stuff that is more grounded and closer to a realistic scenario should at least resemble reality. That means deep formations being more able to stop cavalry charges.

And its also because it makes the game less fun to play. Whenever you're doing something in the game you have to ask yourself these questions:

• Does this feel like a Rank and File game?
• If not, then does the "cool factor" of the departure overcome that?

When it comes to flying monsters and herohammer, it's a no to the first but a definite yes to the second question. Linehammer (or Line w/ detachments in your case) is a big no on both points.

[PowerSeries]

25 State Troops (6*3) Combat Res + 9 (4x2+1) State Troops Detachment
Close Order: +2 (Until 5 detachment troopers die)
Standard Bearer: +1
Rank Bonus: +2 (Negated by First Charge)
Flank Charge: +1 (Possibly infeasible)
Kills made by Champion w/ Halberd: 0-2 (avg 0.33)
Kills made by Fighting Rank w/ Halberd: 0-5 (avg 1)
Kills made by Detachment w/ Halberd: 0-4 (avg 0.66)

7 Empire Knights (7x1) Combat Res
Close Order: +1
Standard Bearer: +1
Kills made by Knights w/ Lance: 0-8 (avg 4.44)
Kills made by Knights w/ Hand Weapons: 0-8 (avg 2.22)
Kills made by Warhorses: 0-8 (avg 1.45)

Gain between 1 and 2.66 or 3 combar res from having a little detachment, if it can make contact.

[Skyros]

This means that if I deploy my detachment 1 mm back from the front of the parent unit and 1 mm to the side of the parent unit it will be really really really difficult (remembering that in TOW you must move in straight lines and can only wheel once during a charge and you must take the shortest route) for a unit which is wider than the detachment to charge the detachment without overspilling into the parent unit.

Not at all. Wheel until the edge of the cavalry just barely gets by the parent unit if you proceed straight forwards towards the detachment, then you close the door with the second free wheel to get as many models into base to base as possible.

You have obeyed all four charge criteria laid out on page 126.

If the parent is close enough to the cavalry that they can't wheel then this can be problematic, but usually it's hard for the infantry to arrange this since the cavalry moves so much farther. Plus usually the cavalry won't be squared off facing the parent unit, but at an angle aligned slightly towards either detachment, and slid towards the detachment slightly.

Now here is a question: Page 127 states that you decide if you are in a units flank or front when the charge is first declared. This would also apply to the 'supporting charge' the detachment declares, which happens in the charge reaction step, before any units have moved. At this time, the enemy unit charging the parent is in the front of both detachments. Which I take to mean if the enemy unit is narrower than the parent unit, neither of the detachments can find room, and thus cannot fight. In most cases if the enemy unit is wider, only a single detachment will be able to join (in the front rank). This is still valuable, as you get all the attacks from your halberdiers even if just a single halberdier touches the enemy, AND you get an additional close order unit into the fray, but you of course wouldn't get any kind of flank bonus.

In previous editions, there was a rule that let detachments auto charge the enemy flank if they could see the flank once the enemy unit made its charge, but that rule is gone now.

Have there been any FAQ's changing the way these rules work? It would make detachments significantly more powerful IMO.

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

Why would anyone target the parent unit unless they were completely clueless about the detachment rules or were just humoring your idea? Think about it, everyone can see this coming a mile off.

.....

Does this feel like a Rank and File game?

I dont think I've ever given them the choice of fighting the detachment. The parent unit is bigger, and its getting in their face, being a direct threat. The detachment isn't even a consideration as it poses no obvious threat.
Also I tend to overload my opponents with targets. In a 1500 point game I will easily deploy 11 fighting units...my opponent must counter them with a mere 4 or 5. He struggles then to pick out the best targets, and can't pick the match ups as easily, and then gets swamped from all sides.


As to whether this feels like a rank and file game; yes! It feels more like one than it was back in 8th or 7th ed.  I play historical games too. And it's starting to feel like an English civil war game, or rennaisance era game..on the cusp of transition from the medieval to the early modern linear warfare. Which is about right in my estimation.

And even in earlier periods fighting formations are usually broader than deep. They kinda need to be, so people can fight.

Also re depth stopping cavalry. It isn't depth that stops cavalry. It's discipline. Depth is the crutch you lean on when you havnt got discipline. A line of steady men will absolutely stop cavalry in their tracks. And this  is the Empire,  not a goblin rabble! We have the discipline!

[commandant]

Not at all. Wheel until the edge of the cavalry just barely gets by the parent unit if you proceed straight forwards towards the detachment, then you close the door with the second free wheel to get as many models into base to base as possible.

Except this might not be legal because you have to take the shortest route.
Just ad you can't wheel more to avoid difficult terrain I question whether you can wheel more to avoid a disordered charge.

The countercharge happens after the charging unit have been moved. I will look up the page when l'm not on my phone so it is very difficult for any detachment that is not very far back not to be in the flank.

[Skyros]

The countercharge is declared before any units have moved, and that is when you determine front vs flank.

It is perfectly permissible to wheel once to avoid a disordered charge if by doing so you are getting more models into base to base contact. Indeed, you must wheel in that case.

[commandant]

The detachments declare their countercharge at the end of the charge move subphase.

This is one page 282 of the BRB

It is perfectly permissible to wheel once to avoid a disordered charge if by doing so you are getting more models into base to base contact. Indeed, you must wheel in that case.

The point is that wheeling to avoid the parent unit and the disordered charge won't get more models into base to base contact because the charging (7 cav) is wider than the being charged unit (5 infantry)

[Skyros]

The detachments declare their countercharge at the end of the charge move subphase.

Definitely not. It's all laid out on page 283.

"When an enemy unit declares a charge against a regimental unit, and if that regimental unit does not flee as a charge reaction, each of its detachments that is within 3" if, not engaged in combat and not fleeing, can declare a supporting action. Any detachment that is able to make a supporting action may declare that it will make a supporting charge"

This is all happening in the charge declaration/charge reaction phase, as described on pages 119 and 120, before any models have been moved.

The moving does not happen until "The end of the Charge Move sub phase", but the declaration of the charge happens in the declare charges/charge reactions phase, just like counter charging would.

It should be obvious this has to be the case, because if the detachment didn't declare its action until after the enemy unit had moved, it would be literally impossible for a detachment to do the supporting fire/stand and shoot reaction.

The point is that wheeling to avoid the parent unit and the disordered charge won't get more models into base to base contact because the charging (7 cav) is wider than the being charged unit (5 infantry)

Wheeling to avoid the parent will most definitely get more models into base to base contact with the charge target than if they run into the parent unit on the way. If by wheeling the charger can avoid hitting some other unit, and instead make contact with the charge target, they MUST do so.

You are absolutely not allowed to declare a charge against one unit, and then clip some other unit on the way in instead, if there is any way possible for you to avoid it. That's totally illegal and quite gamey. People would just use that to get around flee, stand and shoot, counter charge, etc. You can't do it. People could, for example, use it to get around detachments counter charging, as the phase for declaring charge reactions would be past.

This is explicitly spelled out on page 131

"If the charging unit is able to wheel to avoid the unit and complete its charge, it should.....if the charging unit makes accidental contact with an enemy unit that is not fleeing, simply treat the charging unit as having redirected its charge into that unit"

The scenario  you are describing (hitting one unit in the charge and then somehow swinging to contact another unit and then ending up in a disordered charge) is not one permitted by the rules if there is any way to avoid it.

If there is no way to avoid it, the clause on page 130 "Multiple charge targets" spells out what to do. You have to declare a charge against both enemy targets, giving them both a charge reaction.

I have to say, playing the way you interpret the rules would make detachments VASTLY more powerful. But I'm afraid I don't think it's correct.

[commandant]

There is no question that the charging unit needs to contact the detachment first and then contact the parent unit during its Close the door wheel to make it a disordered charge.

It is possible that the detachment needs to poke out a little bit infront of the parent unit in order to achieve this. So that it is angled in a very wide  shallow Y shape almost.

With regard counter charging the counter charge is declared as a charge reaction (you are correct in this) but the charge move with its determination of distance and which Rear and flank calculations doesn't happen until the end of the charge move phase.

There may need go be an FAQ on this but unlike stand and shoot where it is stated that the charge reaction happens immediately, for counter charge it states that it doesn't happen until the end of the charge move.

Oddly enough I don't think the detachment needs to be able to see the charger in order to declare a supporting Charge, though I imagine that it would need to be able to in order to make the charge move

[Skyros]

If it can wheel to avoid contacting the parent when it closes the door, it can and must do so, because closing the door on the parent unit decreases the number of models of the charge target that would be in base to base contact.

The detachment charge is declared in the charge reaction phase, before any models have moved. This is the same time you declare any reaction, like stand and shoot, and counter charge. There's no ambiguity here. Likewise, there is no ambiguity that flanks etc are determined when the charge is declared. The rules explicitly state this.

The charge move itself does not happen until after the charging unit has moved. But it still has to obey the rules about lining up in the front if the enemy unit was to the front when the charge was declared.

If you're playing it otherwise, you're making detachments much stronger than the rules say they should be.

Bear in mind, in previous editions, this weakness was well known and  a special rule was included saying that detachments could charge into the flank of the enemy as long as they could see the flank after the charge move, precisely to address this situation and make detachments counter charge always be a danger. But that rule was specifically removed for this edition. I don't agree with it, but the way the rules are currently written, is detachments, or any other unit, can only charge an enemy in the flank, if they are in the flank at the time the charge is declared in the declare charges/charge reaction phase.

I think they should bring that rule back, as it is, two detachments flanking a charger simply just doesn't ever happen.

[PowerSeries]

I think there's a possible reading which works to declare the change after the enemy's charge is complete.

When an enemy unit declares a charge against a regimental unit, and if that regimental unit does not Flee as a charge reaction, each of its detachments that is within 3" of it, not engaged in combat and not fleeing can declare a Supporting Action.

Okay, you declare a Supporting Action.  What happens when you do that?  Well let's read the shooting one first

A detachment armed with missile weapons may declare that it will offer 'Supporting Fire'. A detachment that does so immediately attempts to make a Stand & Shoot charge reaction

Okay declaring "Supporting Fire" immediately causes a stand and shoot reaction.  Due to the wording of the supporting fire rules say immediately.  Let's read Supporting Charge too.

Any detachment that is able to make a Supporting Action may declare that it will make a 'Supporting Charge'. At the end of the Charge Moves sub-phase, a detachment that declared a Supporting Charge and that is not engaged in combat or fleeing makes an out-of-sequence charge against one enemy unit that charged into contact with its regimental unit during this turn.

Okay declaring Supporting Charge allows the detachment to make a charge.  I would be happier if it said "declare and make" instead of make, but the way it's written, you declare one of two Supporting Actions (not charge or stand and shoot directly) and the rules for the supporting actions then activate the Stand and Shoot or Charge actions at the timing specified by the special rule.  And Supporting Fire clearly says immediately and Supporting Charge says At the end of the Charge Moves sub-phase.