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Author Topic: Kislev and Bears  (Read 16022 times)

Offline King of Fighters

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Kislev and Bears
« on: February 05, 2005, 05:35:41 PM »
I'm in the process of converting up a general for my Kislevite army, and I have already bought the Tzar Boris kit. I origianlly planned on my General riding a (heavily converted) bear, but now I'm not so sure. What is the actuality of a general rideing a Bear into battle? Do you think it is feasible?

Offline CM Dante

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2005, 05:46:13 PM »
In a world of demons, dragons, ogres and orcs I think a human general riding a bear is good enough for me! :)

Cheers,

Dante

Offline drizzts

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2005, 06:54:42 PM »
LOL
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Offline Polymphus

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2005, 07:50:51 PM »
Sounds like a plan to me!
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Offline imperialforge

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2005, 11:36:22 PM »
I don't know... Seems like playing out a stereotype Russia/bear, taken to an extreme.  Would be fine if bears were limited to heraldry and symbols, but a general riding one... Anyway, I think you answered your own question with your own choice of words.

Offline Dragonis999

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2005, 12:20:57 PM »
It sounds feasible enough, but I'm not sure if rules-wise other heros, other than Boris himself, can ride bears.
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Offline Melvin the Melvin

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2005, 05:01:17 PM »
Quote from: imperialforge
I don't know... Seems like playing out a stereotype Russia/bear, taken to an extreme.  Would be fine if bears were limited to heraldry and symbols, but a general riding one...


Amen to that. I'm annoyed enough by the Kislev fluff and army list combining the very different and distinct real-life Russian, Cossack and Polish/Lithuanian military traditions purely on the basis of geograhical proximity, which results in an eclectic creation that can't make up its mind on historical references. The idea of a general riding a bear into battle just makes it absurd and far too stereotypical.
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Offline Hagen_von_Loewenstein

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2005, 05:07:18 PM »
Oh... my... God...

Stereotypes in Warhammer? How DARE they! What have we become? :lol:

Offline AldebrandLudenhof

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2005, 05:07:47 PM »
Bears are an integral part of the Kislevite fluff. Of course a general could ride one! I see no reason against - you can ride wolves, why not bears?

EDIT: I just noticed I hit 200posts last post before this! I wonder which that was....

Offline Kernschatten

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2005, 05:11:15 PM »
Quote from: AldebrandLudenhof
Bears are an integral part of the Kislevite fluff. Of course a general could ride one! I see no reason against - you can ride wolves, why not bears?

Wolves don't hibernate four months out of the year like bears do. :lol:
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Offline Melvin the Melvin

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2005, 05:15:25 PM »
Quote from: Hagen_von_Loewenstein
Oh... my... God...

Stereotypes in Warhammer? How DARE they! What have we become? :lol:


Stereotypes are fun as long as you don't take them too far :P
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Offline Hagen_von_Loewenstein

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2005, 05:17:53 PM »
Don't worry, they're rather toned down currently... I remember times far worse.

Offline CM Dante

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2005, 06:20:53 PM »
Quote
I don't know... Seems like playing out a stereotype Russia/bear, taken to an extreme. Would be fine if bears were limited to heraldry and symbols, but a general riding one... Anyway, I think you answered your own question with your own choice of words.


I can't see any reason why real world events etc should stop someone from putting a fantasy general on a bear. It is after all fantasy.
According to fluff for Kislev it is feasable therefore I say why not!

Cheers,

Dante

Offline Clarkarias

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2005, 08:20:45 PM »
Just put him on the bear and holding a bottle of vodka.  That's "Russian" enough for me!!   :-D

I also heard rumor that Forge World will be releasing a unit of Kislev Bear Cavalry...
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Offline imperialforge

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2005, 11:57:47 PM »
Quote from: Clarkarias
Just put him on the bear and holding a bottle of vodka.  That's "Russian" enough for me!


Easy there. No need to offend our Russian members here.  We don't hear that a bloated toad on a throne sounds  "American enough" for them, do we?

Offline Lord Etharion

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2005, 01:43:04 AM »
Quote from: imperialforge
 We don't hear that a bloated toad on a throne sounds  "American enough" for them, do we?


That is, without doubt, the greatest sentence ever posted on this forum.
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Offline Melvin the Melvin

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2005, 08:21:50 AM »
Quote from: Lord Etharion
Quote from: imperialforge
 We don't hear that a bloated toad on a throne sounds  "American enough" for them, do we?


That is, without doubt, the greatest sentence ever posted on this forum.


Took the words right out of my mouth. Pure genius.
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Offline Midaski

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2005, 08:24:13 AM »
So was that "Super Palanquin" XXX1X last night????
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Offline fp

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2005, 10:10:26 AM »
looks like it's stereotype about "drunk russians who ride fighting bears with pig-iron balalaikas to the battle".

tsar boris on bear is something terrible offencive in my opinion to all our culture.
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Offline Lord Etharion

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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2005, 10:26:48 AM »
Quote from: fp
looks like it's stereotype about "drunk russians who ride fighting bears with pig-iron balalaikas to the battle".



Given that I have no idea what a  balalaika is, I think we can assume it's not a very common stereotype.  :wink:
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Offline fp

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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2005, 10:38:44 AM »
balalaika is folk russian string musical instrument.



you are not musician, am  right? ;)
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Offline General Helstrom

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2005, 10:39:05 AM »
Isn't a balalaika a musical instrument of sorts?

Anyway, it's generally best to take this stereotyping with a good grain of salt, or just about everyone could feel offended by one WFB race or another. 'tis better to try and see the humor of it.
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Offline Midaski

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2005, 10:45:13 AM »
I think I've mentioned before that there was a Dutch team at Games Day about 4/5 years ago running a large participation game where an Empire force was attacking an O & G camp.
They had a unit of winged lancers riding bears. The bear was a model on all fours, and I had been shown it, in an old citadel book, by a manager in GW Canterbury.
I've looked around the web, and cannot find any pics or reference now.

Opinion wise, it looked slightly strange, as I do not think bears are really a 'ridden' animal. As far as Kislevite fluff goes, it would make more sense to have the Mordheim Bear with trainer concept, in the unit genre similar to Rat Ogres, Minotaurs, or Kroxigors.

Tsar Boris has his fluff and can get away with it, but normal warhorses are much more in keeping with the Ungol (Cossack) flavour.

We have also had the discussion before, with much good input from the Eastern European members, about how 'Kislev' is a mix of several 'historical' concepts which GW has chosen to incorporate into their 'version'.
A search should produce several previous threads on topic.

Take it as presented fantasy, and don't get too excited that it is not historically accurate.......
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Offline Melvin the Melvin

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2005, 10:45:36 AM »
Quote from: Lord Etharion
Quote from: fp
looks like it's stereotype about "drunk russians who ride fighting bears with pig-iron balalaikas to the battle".



Given that I have no idea what a  balalaika is, I think we can assume it's not a very common stereotype.  :wink:


A balalaika is a Russian string instrument with 3 strings, somewhat resembling a sitar or banjo.

Edit: Beaten like an unfaithful wife.

As for the bear riding aspect, the part that really pisses me off is not the cultural stereotyping, but the physical absurdity of it. Bears are entirely unsuited to being ridden, as they are much too wide, so to speak, and their way of movement and fighting would make it nearly impossible to maintain stability while while riding one.
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Offline imperialforge

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Kislev and Bears
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2005, 11:54:48 AM »
Gentlemen,

what annoys me about this is not historical inaccuracy, and not even cultural stereotyping - in an "invented" fantasy world it may be unavoidable.  What bothers me is the extent to which stereotyping and just plain lack of sensitivity is exhibited by GW.  

As Hagen correctly pointed out, there was a period when Empire fluff and the words used were offensive to native German speakers.  Since Germany is a large market, they had to tone it down.  Until fairly recently, Eastern Europe was not a significant market, so all kinds of outlandish fluff could be used without regard for offending someone.  Well, now that Eastern Europe, Russia including, are a growing market, that approach assumes outwardly inappropriate forms.

I am not even talking about Boris riding a bear – THAT I could live with (although the association of Russia with bears could be handled in a cooler way – something along the lines of a trained, armoured fighting bear with a Kislevite handler).  There are other things.  To give one example:  In the novel “Ambassador”, which is set in Kislev, the Tzarina’s secret police is called the “Tchekist”.  Apart from linguistic inaccuracy (If you want to write fantasy fiction, do it convincingly – that was shoddy homework), the use of that word IS deeply offensive because of what it denotes and used to stand for.  After all, no one in their right mind would call the Imperial secret police “Gestapo” in print.  And for a good reason.  

So, before I close my diatribe, I point out once again – there are members from all over the world on this Forum, so please consider that in your responses.  *Squints at Mace reverently*