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Author Topic: Help against Dark Elves  (Read 6769 times)

Offline the_green_cd

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Help against Dark Elves
« on: July 14, 2005, 07:29:02 AM »
Hi guys I played a friend today and got totaly massacared.  It was a 2000pt. game and he ran 3 units of  Dark Riders, 20 Druchii Anointed, 3-4 units of 10 Repeater crossbowmen, 2 bolthrowers, some deamon thing on a 20" moving stead, and like 2-3 wizards. I have no idea how to react against a army of such. If I run knights his bolthrowers will eat them up and his deamon elf will flank me, if I run mass infantry he will shoot me to little peices of human, if I run mass artillery his dark riders kill them, if I run a balanced army his magic will kill me ... So im having trouble to finding out what to do.
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Offline gorkij

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2005, 09:21:55 AM »
That's the Cult of Slaanesh list, I presume. Havn't fought it myself, but I've done quite a fair bit of fighting against the regular Dark Elves.

Combined arms is the way to go for me.

Mortars works wonders against small, fragile units like crossbowmen. Especially if he's got 3-4 units of them, then some things are bound to get hit.

(Having problems guessing ranges? Set up a minor area at your home, and play against yourself. After a while, those target ranges seems almost clear to you. And whisper soothingly to your artillery dice and hit-dice - they're tempramental ladies...)

Handgunners can easily pick off Dark Riders, even at a distance. I suppose he runs them in units of five? Panic them, or reduce them until they're no longer a threat, then ignore them. As for the Steed of Slaanesh (Which I've always considered a no-brainer-creature) - Get him to charge a nice, large unit of spearmen and countercharge him. The outnumbering and ranks will most likely break him. (Not sure if the flank bonus is applicable on lone monstrous steeds though... If it is, all the better.)

Sorceress heavy armies really isn't a problem. Their spells are mostly short range (I believe that the Slaaneshi spells are too - Not sure about this one though) and can be dealt with like most other wizards - Hochlands and well placed mortar shots.

As for the Daemon Elves, I'd suggest my classic solution to any problem of an elven nature ; a Helblaster on flank duty, preferably shielded against the Bolt Throwers.

And the bolt throwers... Well, Cannons work. Mortars too. And extremely sneaky huntsmen.

The most important thing about *any* battle however, is to finish what you've started. Pick the most threatening unit and destroy it. Then re-evaluate the remainder and pick off the next.

I've always felt that games against Dark Elves generally means that I'll have to skulk in the back, and wait for the opportunity to counter/supportcharge... I really don't like them. :)
Cry havoc, and let slip the dice of war!
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Offline Justin Hill

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woops - seem to have put this in the wrong place before...
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2005, 11:44:33 AM »
hmm: doesn't seem too difficult.

First of all get a scroll caddy. Throw in a priest as well to help out on the dispels, and give him an orb of thunder to stop the flying creature.

As far as which kind of army to take then you can go either knights or infantry.

I would go knights -0 simply because that limits the number of rounds he has to shoot at them. But - and this is the key - you need lots of knights (minimum 4) - and run them all at the same time - so he id forced to shoot at one or two units and cannot hope to kill all of them. HIs crossbowman lines should crumble under this assault.

Tactics. Firstly - deploying an army with this many missile troops means he's going to be spread across the board. Go for one flank with pretty much all your army - maybe a couple of units hanging back to cover thier flanks and pin down his opposite flank. The attacking units should steamroll half his army - and then they overrun off table (can't be shot at) - and you come back on and do the same to the rest.

Other good units to take include huntsmen and archers (skirmish and so more difficult to hit) and pistoliers to take out the dark riders. Put a priest in with these guys and they can go in with your attack wave. They should also be able to deal with the war machines.

Your scroll caddy only dispels spells that will threaten your attack. Suck the rest of them up. WIth three mages, he's probably deployed them around his units of crossbowmen. If he has put them behind (say on a handy hill) then hit the unit in front and aim to overrun into the mages. They wont be able to have a charge reaction and they'll die really easily. Big victory points for you.

I did this last week to a similar de army with my bretonnians. Admitedly empire kinights aren't quite as good as brets - but they'll do pretty much the same thing.

Offline Malvolio

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2005, 12:28:25 PM »
Quote from: gorkij
Not sure if the flank bonus is applicable on lone monstrous steeds though... If it is, all the better.


Once it's in combat, anything has a flank -- even a lone character on foot.

Countercharging the boobworm is a very good idea, especially since it is fast enough that you're unlikely to be able to get the initial charge on it.

Offline Malvolio

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Re: Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2005, 12:35:08 PM »
The Cult of Slaanesh has at least one nasty weapon available to it that other DElvish armies don't: the Lore of Slaanesh.  If he has three mages, you simply must have strong magic defense as this is a lore that can be game-breaking if given a free rein.

Also, don't let him outmaneuver you.  There will be some hard-hitting and fast units on the board, but almost all of them will be very fragile.  If you can isolate and pin them down, almost anything in that army can fall apart without too much work.  Play defensively if you have to, but don't let him dictate the terms of battle.

In the hands of a good general, the Cult of Slaanesh is a very hard army.  Good luck!

Offline gorkij

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2005, 12:47:14 PM »
All elf armies are fast, and most Druchii armies carries two or more Dark Rider units. When fighting them I'd say terrain hugging is a good idea.
Just pick them off one by one.

If you really want knights on the field, I'd have to agree with most writers on this forum - units of five to seven, two or more units , and in a single rank. Multiple targets, generally 1+ to 3+ armour save against the normal missile fire would work better than a large unit since it presents multiple targets. Positioning is _really_ important against the RBTs - Don't expose flanks, and all they should be able to get is one knight per shot.

Deploying in a flank is also advisable. More bodies on one side means that crossbows range advantage is somewhat hampered by the sheer amount of bodies they have mustered... Ah well. I might think of something else later. :)
Cry havoc, and let slip the dice of war!
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Offline the_green_cd

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2005, 06:55:10 PM »
Well the lore of Slaanesh is just too good! He can cast this spell to make me move where he wants....
Kevin: "Dude, Kenny! Look at this awesome rock!"
Kenny: "Dude, ... thats a jelly bean...."
Kevin: ".... oh... crap, EWWWW!!"

Offline gorkij

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2005, 07:12:26 PM »
Ah, Titilating Delusions? Why not take it away from him? Use the Seal of Destruction, perhaps? The Banner of Arcane Warding, maybe? Or run an all-wizard army yourself? Four Battle Wizards, all drawing from the all out classic Lore of heaven? There's at least a couple of chances of raining down thunderbolts, which is always nice.
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Offline the_green_cd

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2005, 07:52:09 PM »
True, true. Though It would be fun to match everything he puts into his list! every crossbowman I get a handgunner... and not just that hes more expensive! Get a unit of pistoliers and as a rare get a few DOW fast cav... and a few cannons to snipe there mages and boltthrowers... now that I think of it - it would be fun! .... well back to the painting table to paint 10 DOW fast cav... and the other 5000pts of my empire......
Kevin: "Dude, Kenny! Look at this awesome rock!"
Kenny: "Dude, ... thats a jelly bean...."
Kevin: ".... oh... crap, EWWWW!!"

Offline Spurious

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2005, 10:12:58 PM »
Crossbowmen might be better than the handgunners for out-gunning him, due to the increased range allowing you to shoot him without them shooting back.
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Offline the_green_cd

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2005, 11:36:37 PM »
true....  but what about 3 units of 10 knights?  :twisted:
Kevin: "Dude, Kenny! Look at this awesome rock!"
Kenny: "Dude, ... thats a jelly bean...."
Kevin: ".... oh... crap, EWWWW!!"

Offline gorkij

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2005, 12:22:25 AM »
... and then the RBTs will get two per shot? Six units of five would be better.
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Offline towishimp

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2005, 05:37:23 AM »
I recently got my butt handed to me by Dark Elves as well (although not by a Slaanish list), so I thought I'd chime in.

The biggest thing that I realized was that the place to be was locked in combat with him.  Whenever I could pin the wimpy guys down in a face-to-face fight, good things happened.  Bad things happened when I let him shoot me up or when I let his fast things run around to get good charges against me.  The lesson I took from this is: grab anything that moves faster than you as quick as you can...once he's stuck, you can beat him properly.  I know this is easier said than done, but it's something to shoot for.  I also'd like to add that handguns had some great effects on elves...again, elves are wimpy, and handguns wound them like nobody's business.  That's my bit.  What the others have said seems like all good stuff too.  Good luck in your next game against those foul slaver elves!

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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2005, 09:04:21 AM »
You have 2 big friends vs dark elves, from my experience of being repeatedly hammered by darkelves/cult lists.

Mortar batteries, preferably 2 or more bombard any ranked up t3 begger all save units he has which should render them useless in seconds.

The other is the mighty hellblaster.  Watch the expensive fragile units quake in fear as you obliterate a full regiment in one turn as i did against a high elf, 28 hits, resulted in 24 dead high elf spears, it was glorious!

Apart from artilary knights of any variety are pretty good vs most armies.  Might be worth huntsmen march blocking or what not.
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Offline the_green_cd

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2005, 09:28:25 AM »
Hmm I like that idea of the 2 mortar thing ....but he only runs units of 10... and he runs alot of anti artillery
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2005, 10:09:40 AM »
Get a load of 5 man nilla knight units then and just cut down his 10 man units who really shouldnt stand a chance.

In the interests of fairness if you do that i wouldnt bring a great deal of artillary or shooty units though, but some swordsmen make some good footsloggers against the relativly low strength of dark elf/cult lists troops.
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Offline Justin Hill

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to battle
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2005, 10:16:21 AM »
plenty of ideas: now when's the battle?  :wink:

looking forward to hear how the brae men of the empire do...!

Offline empirearethebest

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2005, 04:13:53 PM »
Outshoot him! He has 4 units of crossbows..you can probably take 6 units for the same amount. Use lots of Great Cannons for blowing up his Bolt Throwers, and use Huntsmen to march block his fast stuff. Then take loads of Knights and rip him apart! Also, 2 mages with heavens magic and 2 dispel scrolls each would be nice to get rid of his magic phase (well, for a couple of turns at least) . Keep casting second sign to keep your Cannons fireing.

And yep, take a Hellblaster, perhaps 2.

Offline RasputinII

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2005, 06:22:19 PM »
Play better. There is no army the dark elves can put out that is unbeatable, and for that matter there is no army out there that is unbeatable, though, but not unbeatable. If there is one thing I hate it is people designingg lists to fight specific armies. There is a guy in my gamming group who does that. Really nice bloke but he will always build a list to fight the enemy if he knows what it is, and its just a pain. In my opinion you have lost if you take an army to specificallky beat an opponents list, whether you win the game or not, because you have had to admit that the other player is sooo much better at making list and playing the game that you can only beat him by making a list soley designed to fight that one list. Where is the challange if your army is designed soley to beat the other persons? I haven't built a list that is designed to play against one specific race let alone army list, and that is what makes you improve as a player, learning to out smart the opponent rather then just letting selection do all the work.

Hist list may be strong (and I am not sure it is) but that doesn't mean you should resort to building a list to fight it. Maybe it has highlighted weaknesses in your own list that need ironing out, in which case make your changes. I constantly tinker with my lists based on gamming expereince, its the way to hone your list to your playing style. However the best thing to do is sit down and think about how he plays his list and what its weaknesses are and how your list can best exploit your weaknesses. If the player is a mate or some one you know to some degree then ask him to have a chat with you after the game about your list, his list, what mistakes you made and how you can play better against his list. I know I am always more then happy to do so, and that the people I play against are more then happy to do so. Its like a friend of mine says, there are no powerful lists, there are just well honed lists. If you look at any GT winners list it isn't very obviously powerful, instead it has been honed to fit perfectly with the players playing style. Maybe you are loosing not because he is kicking your arse but you are deploying badly, are using a certain unit badly or simply aren't comfortable with the list you are using. Take last week end for example. I played a couple of games against my friend, both of us using our conflict London lists. I mullered him every time, but that was because that was thee first outing of his new list and he was making silly mistakes and just wasn't at home with the list as one would expect. After the games we spent some conciderable time talking together about uses for units and better deployment strategies. Heck we even swapped lists, which I must point out is a very good way of learning how to play your own list better and also how to defeat lists your are struggaling against. So please don't go and make a list specific list. Its not fun and won't make you a better player. Instead talk to him, examine  and check over your list and how you use it and perhaps even try swapping armies for one game. This is a much better solution to your problem and will improve your skills as a player no end.

Hang on, I have an idea. Write your list out for me, give us a little info on how you play and how you use the list and I will do my best as a Druchii player of some years to help you out and we will see what we can do from there. It maybe your list could do with some tinkering or it may be that your list just doesn't suite you, but its more likely to be you could use it even better! Oh, also, if you could let me know how he plays his list as well that would be great.

Cheers,

Ras

EDIT: Just re-read his list, and I am not impressed. Its fairly week with lots of mistakes and wasted points, you should be able to beat that with any empire list you have floating about. The magic is the only strong part, but it comes at an expensive price, and you should be able to neutralise it. May I ask ifhe took any Dark magic casters, because if he didn't your laughing. The Cult is a very hard list to make very powerful odly enough. It has expensive units and characters and suffers from a lack of chariots and core cavalry. I can think of plenty of cult list that would be much more scary to an empire list...

Offline the_green_cd

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2005, 08:28:37 PM »
Ok ill post my list...

Captain-
   fullplate
   shield
   barded warhorse
   lance

Wizard
   level 2
   Dispell scroll

Wizard
   level 2
   Warhorse

9 inner circle knights
   full command
   warbanner

10 knights
   full command

14 handgunners
   marksmen/ repeater handgun

1 cannon
1 mortar
1 helblaster

6 pistoleirs
   marksmen reapeater pistol


This is my 1500 point army I cant find the list for my 2000 one but its basically just 500 points added.
Kevin: "Dude, Kenny! Look at this awesome rock!"
Kenny: "Dude, ... thats a jelly bean...."
Kevin: ".... oh... crap, EWWWW!!"

Offline RasputinII

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2005, 09:42:51 AM »
Well its rather hard to advise you on how to use your list when you won't post the one of the right points value. I am sure you can remember your 2k list, even if you don't have items. Also will I get a little piece of text on how you use your list?

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2005, 10:06:46 AM »
IMO theres nothing wrong with designing lists to beat enemy lists if thats what the whole gaming groups does.

Its only unfair where a larger portion of the players in a group make general lists.

Cult lists use Lore of Slaanesh pretty much exclusivly due to it being a lot better than Dark Lore which is average at best.  Sure casters get +1 to cast, but that benifits them whatever lore they choose doesnt it? If it does, which im led to beleive it does, then taking a lore not normally boosted by a +1 to cast such as Slaanesh is clearly making the most out of your wizards.
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Offline RasputinII

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2005, 10:50:56 AM »
Quote
Cult lists use Lore of Slaanesh pretty much exclusivly due to it being a lot better than Dark Lore which is average at best. Sure casters get +1 to cast, but that benifits them whatever lore they choose doesnt it? If it does, which im led to beleive it does, then taking a lore not normally boosted by a +1 to cast such as Slaanesh is clearly making the most out of your wizards.


What a load of bull. Utter bull. I have yet to see a half decent Cult list without at least one non Slaaneshi caster unless it has a keeper. One needs a Shadow or Dark caster in a Cult list if only for the defeault spell. Taking a cult list against anything with shooting without at least one Chillwind is easily the crappest idea in the world, and to call dark magic average worries me, especially if you are playing against something shooty. In a cult list you don't want more then 4 Slaaneshi spells at mosst, and in a list with three lvl 2s then one Slaaneshi caster is enough, unless the annointed is a caster in which case two slaaneshi casters is the way to go. In my cult list I use Slaanesh only, but thats because I only have two casters and both have to use it. I would be quite happy to leave the keeper with Slaanesh and the Sorceress with the option to take Dark/Shadow or death depending on what I feel like when I get to the battlefield.

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2005, 12:06:00 PM »
Would hate to disagree with you but ive yet to see any real power in the dark magic lore at all.  In a normal dark elf list i would take a shadow mage lord and probably a death sorceress to back her up.  I wouldnt touch dark lore due to its spells being rather low powered and not very offensive.

Actually the dark lore nearly gives high magic a run for its money on crappyness, and thats saying something.  Slaanesh lore is widely recognised as the best lore in the game.  Many spells to move the enemy and cause them other tactical problems, along with the single most poweful, although short ranged, magic missle base spell in any lore.

A Keeper of Secrets is also a terrible buy in any list.  Ive never seen one do anything vaguely better than what another lord level mage can do, for a lot less points and slots.  Combat wise, dont bother, its dodgy daemon instability will just kick in and throw you the game in all probability.
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Offline RasputinII

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Help against Dark Elves
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2005, 02:07:03 PM »
And what experience do you speak of? For I speak of several years expereince as a Druchii General and the expereince of some of the country's and indee Americas greatest players who inhabbit D.net. The keeper is a fine choice and a fine piece whilst your opinion of Dark magic and High magic ammuses me greatly.