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Author Topic: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...  (Read 13576 times)

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2011, 12:35:09 PM »
Well large formations of archers are not too bad with it either....a pity that goblins only can have shortbows.

Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2011, 01:17:13 PM »
Regular goblins armed with spears and shortbows are only 4 points.  If there are 60 of them in a horde they are a nasty little thing if they hav that poison banner.

As for the other portions of this discussion, namely the comparison between the price of 40k and fantasy, the mech IG list is accurate, though perhaps one of the most expensive lists you can play.  As a counter, most armies you see are made up of cheaper units.  Take a space marine army for example.  I will use my Black templars and even include conversion kits to give the extra point!

3 landraider crusaders  - $188
3 10 man marine boxes - $105
3 conversion kits - $60
1 Emperors champion - $17
1 Chaptermaster - $15
1 Predator Annihilator - $45

$430

And this is actually more than you really need.  You actually don't need the conversion kits, since two are more than enough.  Either way, while not much cheaper, I would sa 40k lends itself to smaller games, and is generally 20% cheaper than fantasy on average.

Phil
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Offline xxvaderxx

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2011, 01:54:31 PM »
Phil, if you are going to compare price, then at least compare relatively comparable armies, small elite armies are always cheaper, same is true in fantasy.

And by the way, that list in particular is terrible.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2011, 02:06:04 PM »
Yeah, surely comparing two orky/delf/helf armies would be better
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2011, 02:19:27 PM »
Phil, if you are going to compare price, then at least compare relatively comparable armies, small elite armies are always cheaper, same is true in fantasy.

You won't find it easy to get an army of elites in Fantasy with the same effectiveness as that list.

Quote
And by the way, that list in particular is terrible.

Replace one troop with a unit of assault terminators.  And if you don't think that army is competitve I would love to see you in a tournament.  A blood angel army with one less unit of troops and landraider won a tourament here recently.  Spac marines have two very nastybuids crrently:  Droppod force and landraider rush.  I run landraider rush and it is highly effective.

Phil
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Offline Jerseyboy381

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2011, 02:23:00 PM »
I will be surprised if the GW lackeys rerelease the Emprie army book before ogres and bretonnians, in fact, I am quite surprised that orcs and gobbo's came before tomb kings and ogres, both armies needing a makeover far more than any other.

Yeah ask Tau and Necron players how that whole "we should get an update first since our book sucks in the new rules." is working out for them.  GW doesn't make the books that need it the most, they make the ones they can sell the most.  It is a business, remember?  Honestly I think the fact that they're doing 3 armies in 3 months is a direct response to last year's dip in sales.  I think the Tomb Kings were originally scheduled for a later reelase and got bumped up.

At this point, Orcs may be the only army like that or they could be the new norm (hope not).  We'll have to wait until we get a few more books out to see if GW will try to keep armies fairly balanced or start an 8th edition power curve to match their 5th edition 40K curve.

Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2011, 02:25:38 PM »
I can almost guarrantee that this will be the norm.  Why would they only  do it with Orcs?  Now will that plan continue through all of the books?  We will see.

Phil
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2011, 02:32:06 PM »
I sure hope so.

It would lead to less moaning about broken combos....as everyone can take them.

Offline xxvaderxx

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2011, 02:49:32 PM »
At this point, Orcs may be the only army like that or they could be the new norm (hope not).  We'll have to wait until we get a few more books out to see if GW will try to keep armies fairly balanced or start an 8th edition power curve to match their 5th edition 40K curve.

I dont know if i agree with that, IG is fairly considered the strongest army out of 5th edition so far and it is 3 codexes old, all 3 marine dexes out so far are on the same level in my humble opinion, the real problem is people trying to play the same list in all 3 instead of leveraging each codexes strengths  and reaching the conclusion that one is better than the other, which is ridiculous as they were never intended to be played like that. Ive seen some really scary stuff come out of the GW leaked GK codex, but that still needs to be confirmed. As a whole i think it is more of a flavor of the month and adjusting to the new meta more than anything else. That is assuming you are playing the standard 1500 game, if you go bigger or smaller, the game is not "calibrated" to be much bigger or much smaller.

Like some one else mentioned, going this way does reduce the chance of game breaking combos. I would really like this if it lead to Named toons finally gaining any acceptance as the 40k ones have, i think that would be fair trade.
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2011, 02:53:49 PM »
Actually currently the three best codexes are Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and then slot three is up for grabs.  I think that would be IG.  SOme put Black Templar in there since they can exploit the most potent things in 5th edition:  Super tough transports and brutal close combat.

IG is in the top three, but they struggle mightily against both of the super elite space marine factions.

Phil
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Offline Shadowlord

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2011, 02:54:45 PM »
It would lead to less moaning about broken combos....as everyone can take them.

Ha ha ha... Sure it would.  :icon_lol:

These whineseer fellows are winning the internet.

The new O&G book is awesome.  :closed-eyes:
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Offline xxvaderxx

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2011, 02:58:23 PM »
Actually currently the three best codexes are Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and then slot three is up for grabs.  I think that would be IG.  SOme put Black Templar in there since they can exploit the most potent things in 5th edition:  Super tough transports and brutal close combat.

IG is in the top three, but they struggle mightily against both of the super elite space marine factions.

Phil

We will have to agree to disagree, i would pick IG, Wolves, DE in that order, but it is cool every one is allowed their own favorites.
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2011, 03:00:21 PM »
Tough not to include the SW and BA in the top three.  #3 is up for grabs but the tournament scene is bearing out that fact.  DE haven't actually been doing that well as a whole.

As an ork player I certainly don't fear DE in the least.  Landraiders do create a difficult situation for me.

Phil
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2011, 03:02:23 PM »
There's too much 40K in this thread!
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2011, 03:03:24 PM »
No such thing.
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2011, 03:06:35 PM »
I run landraider rush and it is highly effective.

Not to derail this thread even more but how's that list doing any damage? You rush forward, disembark and fire a couple of bolters + specials...and what then? I mean my IG would just rapid fire back at you, meltagun the LR's and redeploy where needed, not counting smoked Chimera roadblocks all over the place that you're hitting on 6's in CC...Orks will bury you in bodies after shrugging off one or two turns of fire, Eldar will run away...and only three troops? How are you holding more than two objectives?

I sure hope so.

It would lead to less moaning about broken combos....as everyone can take them.

Huh? Everyone having access to the same items leads to just as many nasty combos as army-specific stuff. Surely +3 attacks are worth more for a guy with S5 base than for one with S4 or even less. Surely 45 points for a 2+ save is a steep price for an army with access to full plate and barded horses.

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Offline Finlay

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2011, 03:12:41 PM »
I run landraider rush and it is highly effective.

Not to derail this thread even more but how's that list doing any damage? You rush forward, disembark and fire a couple of bolters + specials...and what then? I mean my IG would just rapid fire back at you, meltagun the LR's and redeploy where needed, not counting smoked Chimera roadblocks all over the place that you're hitting on 6's in CC...Orks will bury you in bodies after shrugging off one or two turns of fire, Eldar will run away...and only three troops? How are you holding more than two objectives?

I sure hope so.

It would lead to less moaning about broken combos....as everyone can take them.

Huh? Everyone having access to the same items leads to just as many nasty combos as army-specific stuff. Surely +3 attacks are worth more for a guy with S5 base than for one with S4 or even less. Surely 45 points for a 2+ save is a steep price for an army with access to full plate and barded horses.

A common list of items doesn't mean equality.
45 points for 2 plus makes my orc side cry.

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Offline xxvaderxx

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2011, 03:13:27 PM »
With out going into specifics, i have to agree with solar, i think you are letting your personally army weaknesses (which is true orks do have a hard time punching high armor) vise your opinion. I play wolves, i too have a hard time punching high armor from distance, but that wont make running 3 LR and 3 Tactical (which ever flavor you choose) any more viable.

Getting back to fantasy, well i do have agree i dont know if having 1 set of magic items automatically balances things out, unless you make heroes take a further back ground role, kind of what they are in 40k.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2011, 03:17:43 PM »
I'd split off the 40K stuff and banish it to the tavern, but I'm on a funny computer and I can't get it to work properly.
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2011, 03:20:56 PM »
First, the landraiders fire either their assault cannons or multimeltas on the way in, while moving 12" each time.  And when BA, BT, and SW disembark tactical squads them move straight into combat since they are in assault vehicles.  If they cannot get into combat, they don't disembark.  The raiders pop the vehicles and kill what is inside.  On kill point missions they brutalize.  They stay tight and work in a block.
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Offline xxvaderxx

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2011, 03:31:33 PM »
First, the landraiders fire either their assault cannons or multimeltas on the way in, while moving 12" each time.  And when BA, BT, and SW disembark tactical squads them move straight into combat since they are in assault vehicles.  If they cannot get into combat, they don't disembark.  The raiders pop the vehicles and kill what is inside.  On kill point missions they brutalize.  They stay tight and work in a block.

Now that is on the tavern lets fully derail this.

Land Riders have very little killing power on their own. You get 3 meltas 3 Heavy Bolters and 6 Twin Lass cannons, That sums up the entire Ranged attack power of your army, thats weak man, seriously weak, even for marines. I mean reasons and list that can beat this are too many to sum up, i really have a hard time figuring out, how this army could pose a serious threat, the only way i see this army being anything close to effective is if your opponent sits and take it, trying to beat in your own game.

Also, out of the 3 you listed, wolves have the toughest lines for close combat, and i think you are seriously over estimating the punishment they can take.

Say you rush, and assault a unit and killing with out loosing a single model, then what?, you are considering your riders as such a big asset, but only in 1 mission out of 3 your opponent would actually need to deal with them, the rest of the time he just want them to deliver the payload so he can cripple you. 10 marines are not that particularly hard to kill and even loosing 1 squad seriously gimps your army in all 3 missions. One mission requires you to relinquish 1 assault unit, cutting back nearly 33% of your force. I mean, it is really hard not to see this list weaknesses.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 03:38:38 PM by xxvaderxx »
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2011, 03:38:04 PM »
Three twin linked autocannon, 3 multimeltas, and 6 hurricane bolters.

While I agree with your sentiment, it works on the field.  Shot after shot are wasted on the landraiders.  It can take all of an armies shooting an entire game to crack all three and it yields only three kill points.  The landraiders need to kill only a single chimera a turn and they match that.  It is an army that minimizes its liabilities and concentrates its power.

As for orks, they have no lack of landraider removal. KFF battle wagons with deff rollas maul landraiders while taking advantage of AV14 and 4+ cover saves.
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Offline xxvaderxx

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2011, 03:43:09 PM »
Three twin linked autocannon, 3 multimeltas, and 6 hurricane bolters.

While I agree with your sentiment, it works on the field.  Shot after shot are wasted on the landraiders.  It can take all of an armies shooting an entire game to crack all three and it yields only three kill points.  The landraiders need to kill only a single chimera a turn and they match that.  It is an army that minimizes its liabilities and concentrates its power.

As for orks, they have no lack of landraider removal. KFF battle wagons with deff rollas maul landraiders while taking advantage of AV14 and 4+ cover saves.

Yeah i agree that this could work as a KP denial list, exclusively depending on which army you are facing, DE and Guard for instance will eat you alive.
But that is just 1 out of 3 missions, and this list is seriously weak on the other 2. If your opponent plays the mission instead of playing to table you, you are in deep S*!#.

Even further, what happens when you face troops you cant take on with your tacticals? Say blood letters, mobs of orks, blob guard, banshees and so on, what are you going to do? pit 410+ points killing say 5 models a turn of at most 15 points per model?.

This is a Fun list, dont get me wrong, but LR are not the hottest thing in the Marines books, in fact they are far from it, and i dont usually see more than 1 (if at all) on the table.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 03:49:45 PM by xxvaderxx »
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2011, 03:48:38 PM »
What would a guard list offer that is so difficult?  Unless it was kitted specifically to remove this?  Each unit inside is more that capable of killing two units each.  Try it out sometime.  You will be surprised.  The mech list for imperials will lose many models trying to reach melta range, while an air cav list will be shot out of the sky by twin linked autocannon and multimeltas.  Same holds for DE.  Neither list has a unit that can compete with BA and SW CC units backed by characters.  Outmanuvering the raiders doesn't change much since they have the same armor everywhere.
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Offline xxvaderxx

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Re: Lol, lucky we are not 8th editions guinea pigs...
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2011, 03:53:26 PM »
What would a guard list offer that is so difficult?  Unless it was kitted specifically to remove this?  Each unit inside is more that capable of killing two units each.  Try it out sometime.  You will be surprised.  The mech list for imperials will lose many models trying to reach melta range, while an air cav list will be shot out of the sky by twin linked autocannon and multimeltas.  Same holds for DE.  Neither list has a unit that can compete with BA and SW CC units backed by characters.  Outmanuvering the raiders doesn't change much since they have the same armor everywhere.

The Meq list will murder you man, 2 vets squads shot 6 meltas on 1 rider and that is gone, and he can do this with out the opportunity for you to answer or pre empt it. Seriously, this list is pretty terrible all comers wise, i can not really see this list on the top of tournaments unless it is a small local thing.

Also that list is well over 1500 which furthers it weaknesses.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 03:56:46 PM by xxvaderxx »
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