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Author Topic: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar  (Read 7415 times)

Offline Clymer

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The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« on: July 06, 2015, 04:50:06 AM »
Just as many others, I have been digging through the PDFs of AoS in search of meaning for non-elite troops. I'm not sure I have an answer yet and certainly haven't been able to try anything out on the table top yet, however I have had some thoughts on State Troops that I'd like to share and I'm wondering if others agree or have other thoughts.

The more, the merrier! :happy:
A unit of 40 or more state troops now hits automatically. Huzzah! If you field a State Troop Detachment and field your units in good order (as Empire Generals do) then you can hit automatically with a unit of 30+. A Celestial Hurricanum also grants a +1 to hit to nearby models, so you can keep that auto-hit up and going even after you've lost a lot of casualties. Add in a Warrior Priest's Hammer of Sigmar and let the fun ensue. :biggriin: Better yet, take advantage of the general's Hold the Line ability and let yourself get charged.

Some men are longer than others :blush:
My halberds are currently modeled so that the back ranks halberds stick out past the model in front of it. With 1" range, this means a real potential for 3 ranks of attacks with halberds. Maybe 4 ranks could fight with spears because of their 2" melee range, but I never used those so I'm not sure what models typically look like. Spears also look to me, for the first time ever, as a viable choice. Now that S is no longer a factor, they wound as well as halberds. That combined with worse overall saves (4+ seems to be the best save that a heavy armored unit gets), rending isn't even that big an advantage compared to extra attacks.

Tar Pits and Anvils:ph34r:
First off, 30+ models is a lot to kill, even for elites. Shields make swordsmen extremely durable with a 4+ save and a re-roll rolls of 1. That means even up against rending attacks they stand a pretty decent chance. Rend -1 seems pretty common, but Rend -2 seems uncommon.

The Empire seems to have a load of helpful buffs at their disposal as well. Shield of Faith is more reliable than a spell and can't be unbound because it's a prayer. Even more reliable still is the aura of protection from the Luminark. I also think that Mystifying Miasma will be a mainstay of my army when I face elite troops.

We also do pretty well on the bravery front. In a State Troop Detachment, troops get +1 bravery and don't have models flee on a Bravery Check of 1 or 2 when a banner is in the unit. The Inspiring Presence ability seems tailor made for armies dependent on loads of weak troops and units. The Stately Warbanner on a BSB general has a huge 24" effect area and lets you take the lower of two dice for bravery checks. Combined with Regimental Discipline this is pretty powerful for a tar pit.

Right back at ya!  :::cheers:::
When was the last time you used detachments to counter charge or counter fire? I haven't since mid 7th edition and TVI tactics. But with the new piper and drummer rules, Counter Charge lets you give your opponent more than he bargained for. Greatswords also can countercharge now that the old detachment rules are scrapped. Why not have a couple of units of 10 greatswords lurking a few inches back from the front of your State Troop tar pit ready for a counter charge?

It also gives crossbows and handgunners the only Stand and Shoot option in the game now (as far as I can tell... it could be hiding somewhere I haven't seen yet.)

In summary
I realize that many are searching for the balance in AoS and many have been left cold. But it looks like there is promise here, even for our poor, bloody State Troops. Honestly, I think GW has done such a good job of preserving the character of State Troops in a way that even seems playable that I'm really excited about fielding infantry again. And when was the last time you saw an competitive Empire infantry army?

Also, these kinds of buffs that stack and stack and provide tons of synergy don't seem to be available to more elite units and armies. I'm really digging the new flavor of the Empire in the Age of Sigmar. Yes, it needs to be played out on the table top, but there's a lot to be optimistic about here.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 04:57:31 AM by Clymer »
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Kernschatten

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 05:56:37 AM »
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
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Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 06:25:47 AM »
One other thing to consider, under the battleshock rules, for every 10 models in the unit when the test is taken, you get +1 bravery

Offline Jomppexx

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 09:59:30 AM »
One other thing to consider, under the battleshock rules, for every 10 models in the unit when the test is taken, you get +1 bravery
So a unit of 40 State Troops in the State Troop Detachment will get +5 Bravery?
Seems pretty fair.
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Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 10:25:01 AM »
Any unit for any army will gain +1 bravery for battleshock tests, for every 10 models it has at the time it takes the battleschock test.

Offline Talben21

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 11:40:14 AM »
A few things...

1. Thank you for writing this up!
2. This write up just proves how clunky AoS is. Modelling stuff makes it so another rank attacks? Huh?! Not the OP's fault that the system is terrible.


Offline Clymer

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 03:05:27 PM »
I totally missed the +1 bravery per 10 models. Thanks for pointing that out!

As for modeling advantages, I don't think it's a big deal.

For fluff purposes with State Troops, I think it makes sense: Swordsmen get 2 ranks of attacks, Halberdiers 3 ranks of attacks and Spearmen 4 ranks of attacks. If my opponent wasn't happy with that, I'd be fine just measuring from bases which would mean 2 ranks of attacks for Swords and Halberds and 3 for spears. I'm totally OK with that too. I suspect that in a tournament environment they will house rule measuring to bases.

But keep in mind, I haven't played a single game yet so I don't know how significant this particular issue will be. It's also hard to know what the intent of the rule is, and that may become clear within a couple of GW battle reports.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline shavixmir

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 03:37:42 PM »
So State troops get free hits if there are 30 of them with a hurricanum nearby?

That's bizarre. How many of those troops will be within 3" of the enemy unit (or in other words, how many can actually attack)?
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Offline nuttyknatty

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 04:09:56 PM »
Great job!

Although tar pits are a thing of the past - we can all just move out of combat now!


Offline Clymer

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2015, 03:33:05 AM »
@ Shavixamir... How many can attack will depend mostly on how your unit is arranged. You get a "Pile In" move of 3" when it's your turn to attack, so really any model with at least one point within 4" at the start of the combat phase should be able to fight.

@ Nutty, I'm also wondering about how tarpitting will work. If a unit moves away from a unit within 3" (a.k.a., out of combat) then it is considered to have retreated and may not shoot or charge. So while that's not really a "tar pit" it does force an opponent to make some tactical decisions. Also, there's no reason that a unit can't "wrap" around an enemy unit, so it's conceivable that a retreating unit won't be able to get away.

Still, my caveat is that this is all just a thought experiment for me, I won't be able to get a game in for at least a couple weeks.

Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Dotification

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 04:49:13 AM »
Thanks for writing this up! A couple observations of my own;

-I'm prolly not the only one whom will have a bunch of shields to paint if AoS supplants 8th Ed. in time/groups.

-Most of my swordsmen models don't poke forward enough to get w/in 1" of the enemy when in the 2nd rank, same with halberdiers from a 3rd rank, or spearmen from a 4th rank.

-Is it cheesy to re-base them further up on their bases to pile in more attacks?  B/c in past editions/other games I thought modeling for game advantage is somewhat of a faux-paus??

-Also, have you guys considered putting in an extra 3-4 troopers in units to absorb some ranged fire & still retain the 20/30/40 bonuses in case your opponent is canny about it??

-It's too bad we can't just mix weapons in a unit, then we could 1 rank swords, 1-2 rank halberds, then put spears in the back, as long as they keep w/in 3" of where the enemy will charge/pile in.  I guess in a smaller game you could make each weapon/rank its own unit & use the State Troop Detachment's Regimental Discipline to make up for some the rank bonuses to Bravery you would get with larger units.

-Does Piling In count as 'Moving,' or not, since it happens as part of the Combat Phase?  It would be a crummy way to lose your Hold the Line bonuses otherwise.

-Speaking of the ^S.T.D.,^ do you guys like the Greatswords, Outriders, or Pistoliers?  I was leaning towards Outriders at the front of my deployment sector to keep foes 12" back from the starting line.  Otherwise if you want to get Greatswords in (Oathsworn Honour Guard's +1 to Hit the around the General is fluffy & cool) then you could put Archers up on the line, then use the Huntsmen ability to scoot them back 5", & hope the enemy doesn't run them down?

-Also for this Detachment, or even more generally, how do you guys like the our General-on foot, horseback/pegasus*/griffon?  It seems like the Empire General's Stately War Banner (lower of 2 dice for B-shock) & Hold the Line (can't move/charge, but +1 to Hit & Wound) seems to support state troops shooting & duking it out better than the Griffon's Piercing Bloodroar spooking a unit w/in 8" & giving a single State Regiment or K.O. +2 to Bravery & +1 to Charge & to Hit rolls.  Whereas on a pegasus or warhorse you're not as huge of a target, but the mobility & wingspan could help spread the 15" HtL bonuses around better.  I like the Imperial Lance & Shield combo to improve the save to 3+ & reach & damage for charging.

-I plan on using Movement trays still, then if my guys step off to Pile-In around the sides then it's not the end of the world.

-So we have to keep models w/in 1" of each other for unit coherency, so why not use tercio/pike & shot tactics?  Have a line of say, 20-30 crossbows up front in 'double skirmish' formation, then when the enemy approaches, keep the x-bows still, 3" back from the enemy, & Reload, Fire! & have your swordsmen/halberdiers/spearmen step 5" through the gaps to engage, & charge as needed?


*see Substitute Warscrolls index; General on Pegasus counts as General on Warhorse (model can fly)

Offline Darknight

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2015, 09:33:43 AM »
-Is it cheesy to re-base them further up on their bases to pile in more attacks?

No, because you CAN'T base them to get more attacks. Bases count for nothing, remember? You could, in theory, not base your models at all (but they would fall over). All measurement (including 'within 1"') is measured from the model, not the base. So, it doesn't matter if the base is 1" or 6" - with a sufficiently large base on a sufficiently small model, an opponent you were fighting would be standing literally ON your base!
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Offline Captain Alard Krusen

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2015, 12:40:24 PM »
I'm looking forward to playing the State Troop Detachment. Despite the huge makeover, the flavor of state troops is still there - the courage of men, dathers and sons fighting to protect their homes, etc. Aaand i can still use my hero on pegasus

Offline Ambrose

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2015, 12:47:17 PM »
-Is it cheesy to re-base them further up on their bases to pile in more attacks?

No, because you CAN'T base them to get more attacks. Bases count for nothing, remember? You could, in theory, not base your models at all (but they would fall over). All measurement (including 'within 1"') is measured from the model, not the base. So, it doesn't matter if the base is 1" or 6" - with a sufficiently large base on a sufficiently small model, an opponent you were fighting would be standing literally ON your base!

It is going to get worse when people start basing their ranged/magic units on 60mm bases so they can't be attacked in melee combat.  Maybe I should glue my remaining boxes of state troops with spears....
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Offline Darknight

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2015, 12:54:43 PM »
That won't work - there isn't anything in the rules that say you cannot place bases on top of each other, I think.
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Offline Ambrose

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2015, 01:21:55 PM »
Good point.  Never thought of that.  Darn, I'm still in 8th edition mode.   :x
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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2015, 02:02:15 PM »
Besides if someone would try and game with me trying to be a prick about expoiting the rules in his benefit he would loose an opponent and some more very fast..

I wouldn't know but how much fun is gaming by yourself all alone?
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Offline SoonerSox

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2015, 02:22:03 PM »
Bravery is huge and is the most important stat for a tarpit group. There are times when a unit can be wiped by wounds alone (ie taking a charge from a group of Grail Knights) but for the battles where one group has only a slight to moderate advantage, bravery will hold the the greater force in check for quite some time.

My first game was against a friend using a quickly thrown together list that included lizardmen skinks with some kind of ranged weapon. The skinks had a 10 bravery before any buffs and although they could barely hit anything, they never lost a model to battleshock. They tied up my Halberds for 3 rounds. I guess this would seem much more useful if you could show what a points bargain they were but basically it just showed how good Lizardmen  and Bravery are in general now.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 02:24:53 PM by SoonerSox »

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 02:57:17 PM »
On a side note: another novelty in AoS is that heroes and monstes are immune to battleshock.
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Offline Jomppexx

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 02:59:47 PM »
On a side note: another novelty in AoS is that heroes and monstes are immune to battleshock.
Well, battleshock represents troops fleeing from the battle so it kinda maybe makes sense.
I think Heroes&Monsters should still be affected by some kind of flee psychology though.
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Offline SoonerSox

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2015, 06:20:25 PM »
I've wondered what the point of bravery is on heroes. I'm sure there are some special rules that I haven't seen that utilize it but the 8th Ed part of me wants to use the generals bravery for nearby troops.

Offline iatroblast

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2015, 06:47:29 PM »
On a side note: another novelty in AoS is that heroes and monstes are immune to battleshock.
Well, battleshock represents troops fleeing from the battle so it kinda maybe makes sense.
I think Heroes&Monsters should still be affected by some kind of flee psychology though.

Probably they did this for the shake of simplicity, as heroes always tend to be the last models to flee (based on their leadership stats). Sure they wiped any possibility for an unexpected break on their behalf, but i'm ok with that

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: The Merits of State Troops in the Age of Sigmar
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2015, 07:31:59 PM »
I've wondered what the point of bravery is on heroes. I'm sure there are some special rules that I haven't seen that utilize it but the 8th Ed part of me wants to use the generals bravery for nearby troops.

Araloth has an ability to enable nearby units use his bravery.  And things like banshees and the Terrorgheist do an attack vs bravery

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