Topic: Tactical Decision Game 1.1 (Emp Turn 1 vs Ogrebus)

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Tactical Decision Game 1.1:  Empire Turn 1 versus the Ogrebus

***Note-  see the thread Tactical Decision Game 1:  Empire versus the Ogrebus if you haven’t already.


Sorry for the delay...my internet is finally back up!

TDG 1.0 took us up to the start of the game.  As predicted, “Bruiser” won the toss to get the first turn.  I will briefly summarize the action on his turn so we can get to the next set of tactical decisions on ours.

No charges.

The Sabretusk and Gnoblar reinforcements arrive to backup the IB on the far right flank.  The Sabretusk moves forward to divert an early charge by our Demis against the ‘Blaster and the Gnoblars move up the center.

His left flank slides a little to the left to make way for the Ogrebus, which reforms and moves as far as it can towards our defense up top.

Both Ironblasters move into firing positions against the STank.

Magic:
Bruiser generates 7 Power Dice to our 4 Dispel Dice.  He tosses 3 dice on a Fireball directed at our Archer detachment and gets two 6s!  The Archers are burnt to a crisp- but our units nearby make their Panic tests.  He rolls a 10 on the Miscast chart and loses all his Wizard levels!  (As a Lvl 0, can he still cast spells when he gains Loremaster by being near the Tower?)

Shooting: 
Ironblaster 1 fires its cannonball and gives the STank 3 wounds. 

Ironblaster 2 fires and also scores a wound on the tank, but it makes its 6++ Ward Save!

The Leadbelchers have insane success shooting at the ICK:  21 shots net 9 wounds and we fail 4 armour saves!  The two ICK remaining make their Panic test.

Empire Turn 1

At the beginning of our turn, the STank tries to generate 4 steam and rolls a mishap.  A roll of 7 nets us 1 extra steam for 1 wound.  The tank has 6 wounds remaining. 

Demis charge the Sabretusk to clear him out.  They somehow manage to avoid damage from the forest, which ends up being an Abyssal Wood. 

The tank uses 3 Steam Points for movement and aims straight towards IB1… and rolls 11 inches.  Nice. 

The Greatswords and her detachments arrive on time as promised by the Elector Count and move forward their max 4” after entering the table.  The Halb detachment is kept just out of the Mournfangs LOS and slightly back so he can’t charge it with the Fangs.

The ICK Knights pull a swift maneuver and ride hard to reach the edge of the Wizard’s Tower so they can halt the Ogrebus’ advance no farther than there.

The rest of the line moves up forward slightly.  The Luminark is within 6” of the STank and our Wizard is within 12” of it to hopefully give it some easy heals.

TDG1.1 Tactical Decisions

So…now we come to our next set of decisions:  what to do in our first magic phase?

The Winds of Magic were generous to us:  10 Power Dice plus 1 channeled give us a total of 11.  Bruiser only gets 6 Dispel Dice.

Here is how I decided to run the TDG for the magic phase:  since every spell success or failure, use of PD & DD, scrolls, etc effects the decision on the next spell I want you to post the basic plan you would use for the magic phase and why.  However, the only thing I am collecting votes on at the moment is the first spell you list and how many dice you want to use on it.

Whatever spell gets the most listings as the first spell in the sequence will win.  I will roll the dice, figure out the results, and then pose another tactical decision to the forum on where to proceed from there.  I will keep each step open until input starts dying down…so don’t wait to jump in or you might miss out on a step.  Also-  understand that once a spell has “won” and I have tossed the dice and moved on, I need fresh input from you on your opinions on where to go from there.

To avoid any confusion, here is an example post of what I am looking for:
-------------------------
My name is EmpireRocks.     

My basic plan is:

--2 dice for Shield of Faith by AL on the Greatswords
--3 dice on Luminark bound spell against the Sabretusk
--6 dice on Regrowth on the STank.

I chose this because….blah, blah, blah
-----------------------

The only thing I would count from this example initial post is a vote for a 2 dice Shield of Faith by the AL on the Greatswords for the first spell.


Some things to think about:

--The STank could use some healing
--The Greatswords will likely get charged by the Mournfangs.  We may want to pre-buff our troops
--The Luminark Bound spell could be used to kill the Sabretusk or take a few wounds off the Ironblaster

A reminder from TDG 1:  our spells are Flesh to Stone, Shield of Thorns, Regrowth, and Dwellers from Below.  We also have the prayers Hammers of Sigmar, Shield of Faith, and Soulfire.  The Luminark has one Bound spell-  Solheim's Bolt of Illumination.


Final Comments

We got some good feedback in the TDG 1.0 post on deployment, terrain, Empire tactics vs Ogres, etc.  I hope TDG 1.1 opens up a fruitful discussion on how we can use the magic phase to our advantage.

HHG

[commandant]

Commandant

- 4 dice regrowth on the stank
- 3 dice hammer of Sigmar on the Greatswords
- 3 dice shield of faith on the Greatswords.

As I see it the sabertooth is not that important, not important enough for the foe to risk DD to protect.
Getting the hammer of sigmar on the greatswords would be a nice bonus (more so because their detachment would get it as well) but more important is the shield of faith.   If the Fangs charge the greatswords then the shield of faith is massively important.
I don't think casting re growth on the stank is that important and I don't want an IF.   His butcher has 0 wizard levels so we are already starting at a +4.   I want him to throw as many dice at dispelling the regrowth as possible because I want to protect the greatswords.

On another note I don't think moving up the knights is a good idea.   I just gives the guthorde something to charge with no gain and how did the archers end up behind (instead of in front of) the halberdiers?   The halberdiers should have sacrificed movement in order to remain behind the archers and make life difficult for the leadbelchers

[Fandir Nightshade]

My name is fandir....and I use plastic crack ( a lot)

My basic plan is: use our superiority in mage levels the firebelly is now a lvl 0 mage adding +0 to his dispel rolls while we get +4 so we should make rather sure our lvl 4 doesn´t fail his spell roll (and can´t cast any more spells) and as soon as he runs out of dispel dice make use of the low casting value stuff like prayers and the luminark.

--3 dice Flesh to stone on the Greatswords
--4 dice Regrowth on the Steam tank

If he lets the two through I would try a dweller from below on the mournfangs if they are in range or a shield of thorns that either will hurt his mournfangs should they charge or hinder his magic phase by using 3-4 dice to dispel it. If he has no dispel dice left I would go for these two.

--2 dice shield of faith on greatswords
--2 dice luminark on sabretusk

Plan is to safe the greatswords from the evil mournfangs either a +2 toughness or a 5+ wardsave should help them immensly in the cc together with hatred I would rank their chances rather high to survive and perhaps even break the mournfangs (with a countercharge of the halberdier detachment very likely). Healing the stank is always a great idea and sniping the sabretusk will be important later on so better to get him out of action now.

[zifnab0]

The Mournfang have two options for CC next turn: Greatswords or Steam Tank.

The greatswords are going to hold him up and may do a lot of damage, but will hurt the big unit a lot.  Charging the sTank removes a big threat, but runs the risk of being hit in the flank with the Greatswords next turn (if he doesn't destroy the stank).

Against the GS, the sabertusk will engage the Halb. detachment, preventing a flank countercharge, and the OK will shoot the sTank during their turn.  Against the sTank, the sabertusk will intercept the GS, preventing a charge in T2 by the GS.

I suspect the MF will charge the sTank, they're too expensive of a unit to risk the Blessed Bulwark (-1 to hit) and a possible flank charge by the steam tank next turn.

In our turn we need to solve 3 objectives:
1) make the GS more unpalatable as a target, forcing the MF to charge the sTank;
2) eliminate the Sabretusk so we can charge the MF in T2; and
3) make sure the steam tank survives.

Start with objective #2: take out the Sabretusk
2 dice, Luminark shot at the Sabretusk.  Soften it up so we can finish him in the shooting phase.

Next, make the GS more unpaletable:
1 die - Hammer of Sigmar
1 die - Shield of Faith

Finally, give the steam tank a fighting chance to survive the Mournfang charge:
3 dice - Flesh to Stone on Steam Tank
4 dice - Regrowth on steam tank

[zifnab0]

(As a Lvl 0, can he still cast spells when he gains Loremaster by being near the Tower?)

He can attempt to channel dispel and magic dice, but cannot cast spells.  From the FAQ:

Q: If a Wizard has had his level reduced to 0 and he still knows
one or more spells, can he attempt to cast them? (p31)
A: No.

and

Q: If a Wizard has had his level reduced to 0 does he still counts
as a Wizard and can he still attempt to channel Power and Dispel
dice? (p28)
A: Yes.

[Empire - Ulric]

My Name is Empire-Ulric and I can't stop collecting Plastic Crack!

Anyhow, as I see is we have a passel of things we need to accomplish on our turn! In no particular order:

1) Ensure the Steam Tanks Survival vs a Mournfang charge or improve it's odds of survival vs another 2 cannon balls.

2) Make that Fire Belly use his dispel scroll

3) Make the Greastwords a poor choice for him to charge

4) Eliminate the pesky Sabertusk thwarting our Greatswords

The first spell I would cast is Flesh To Stone on our Greatswords using 4 dice.

The goal is to make the Greatswords a poor choice for him to charge with his Mounrfangs and I want the ogre player to either use his scroll, or have to use as many of his dispel dice as possible on this first spell. As an added bonus if the spell goes through and the Tank is within 12 Inches of our Wizard I will use the Lore of Life perk to heal the Steam Tank of a single wound.

The rest of my magic phase will definitely depend on what the Orge Player does but the goals are Regrowth on the Steam Tank and the Luminarks bound spell to toast the Sabertusk. Any dice left after that point could be used for a Shield of Thorns (again for the perk to heal the tank) or some priestly prayers on the Greatswords.

Ultimately we want the Mounrfangs to choose to charge the Steam Tank so that we can have a nice flank charge at the next turn with our Greatswords.

[Soapstar]

Hi my name is soapstar and I supply plastic crack

My magic phase would look a bit like this (figures in brackets is avg roll plus wizard level where appropriate)

3 dice flesh to stone on GS (14.5)
3 dice regrowth on stank (14.5)
2 dice luminark at Sabre tusk (7)
2 dice shield of sigmar on GS (7)
1 dice hammer sigmar on GS (3.5)

Flesh to stone first as it is pretty likely to go off with casting value of 8 havnt done the math hammer but is suspect it reduced wounds to the unit equal to shield of sigmar. If the ogre player wants to dispell it he needs to throw 4 dice at least at it or scroll it, personally if I was the ogre player I'd 4 dice this. Regrowth on stank for obvious reasons, if I was ogre player I'd scroll it. Then 2 d luminark hoping the ogre player uses his remaining 2 DD so shield and hammer go off if casting values are met (although if I was ogre player I'd let luminark through and dd the shield).

So I'd hope to end with either shield or Flesh on the GS and either luminark or hammer of sigmar preferably Flesh over Hammer for the +1 wound on stank.

Stank without any regrown wounds still has good chance of surviving the mournefangs charge I think the ogres would be better off shooting it for another round personally.

[Soapstar]

I contemplate using just 1 d on the luminark and then throwing 2d on shield of thorns instead of casting hammer on the stank but then realised that with no mages left the ogres would dispell it in their magic phase and it would have no use (except giving the stank back a wound) I might go for a one dice cast instead of hammer at the end of the turn n hope for some luck to give it a wound if both flesh and regrowth are  dispelled (would need a 5+)

I'm also purplexed by the movement of the archers too what are they doing behind the halberds? What's the thinking here HHG? I'd of run them towards the watch tower trying to keep it between them and the lead belchers as much as possible then next turn moved them in. All the lifespells with no opposing wizard and -2 to hit from the belchers perfect fields of fire , don'tind if I do!

[sammay23]

My name is Sammay23.

If I were the Ogre player, I wouldn't charge a thing next turn, except, perhaps, the IC Knights with the bus. I would also agree with Commandant, moving those knights up was a mistake. He has us outgunned with his two IBs and Leadbelchers. The Ogre opponent I play would look at this board and back off few inches, keeping is Mournfangs in charge range, and bringing his GutStar up closer.

Why? He wants to maximize the number of our units he can charge at once. Why? Because we cannot buff all of them. The more units he threatens, the more he forces us to make difficult choices. If I were the general in this setup, I would not expect the Ogres to charge at all.  Also, the matchup between Mournfangs and the stank is terrible for the Ogre player, if he takes the tank in front. He's losing attacks against the stank, and will know that statistically he's unlikely to drop it 6 wounds. With the dragon banner, he wants to charge WS 3, T 3 troops, not T6.

Given that:

I want him to close. Even if I lose a lot of Greatswords to his MFangs, it'd be better that they charge, are held, and counter-charged on the next turn.

My basic plan is:

1) 3 dice at Regrowth on the Stank. We want that puppy at full health. It's our best shot at taking out ironblasters, it draws fire, and it can hold the center well against either the MF or Gstar for a turn. He'll probably dispel, which is great. He'll likely need all four dice to do it reliably, given our +4 advantage.

Edit: I forgot about the reflection banner on the Gutstar. I still think it's important to force him to close, so I'd probably try to four-dice Dwellers on his MournFangs instead of six-dicing it on his Guts. Not nearly as good a target, but there's a good chance of getting one of them.  I'd use the remaining dice to buff the Greatswords a touch - Shield of Faith would be my first choice with two dice, followed by one on Hammer of Sigmar.

I still think my comment below holds, even though I'm not six-dicing anything.

Why risk IF? Because we don't have Throne of Vines and his mage has no spells, therefore, our mage isn't likely to be that pivotal. Flesh to Stone won't matter much against his S6/S7 Gutstar. Regrowth is nice but D3 will only slow the tank's death. I see it as a worthwhile risk (33% IF) to either draw out his scroll or take out at least 2 models from the gutstar.

Them's my 2 cents.

[Soapstar]

I think the reason no one has proposed dwellering the gutstar is due to it having the banner that bounces any spells cast at it onto another unit on a 2+. So your risking the IF for a 1 in 6 chance to affect it.

[sammay23]

Oh, right, I completely forgot about the banner! Allow me to edit my previous post

[Holy Hand Grenade]

A couple of comments about movement (knew I would get them-  unavoidable!). 

-----------------

A couple of people have mentioned the Archers...and why they are behind the Halbs.  Right now their primary purpose is the Wizard bunker.  They could go out into the field, but we don't want several things:  them in the way of a potential Halberd charge, the Gnoblars f'ing with them (even though they are only Gnoblars), the Leadbelchers shooting at them, and last but not least, we DO want the Wizard within 12" of the STank.

So for now, the Wizard is safely behind the lines, giving the STAnk heals, and his unit is receving a 6++ Ward save from the Lum.

-----------------

A couple of comments on the Knights moving up to block the Ogrebus.  In my opinion it is one of the best moves in the phase.

In graph 1, the Ogrebus charges the ICK has to end at an angle.  In graph 2, the ICK are destroyed but the Ogres have to reform to face the front, because an Overrun option only pushes them into the tower...and it gains nothing.

The ICK sacrifice keeps the Ogrebus at max distance away.

Now, if the Knights are not in the way, the Ogrebus only needs a 10+ to get off a long distances charge on the STank in graph 3.  It is a long shot...but why risk it?  A roll of a 10 would also give the unit D3 impact hits instead of 1.  Ugly for us.

Even if the Ogrebus doesn't charge as in graph 4, he can march forward and gain at least 6" if the Knights aren't there.

All of that combined = sacrifice move for the Knights.

(As a Lvl 0, can he still cast spells when he gains Loremaster by being near the Tower?)

He can attempt to channel dispel and magic dice, but cannot cast spells. 

Thanks Z, I tried to find it but couldn't last night.  Good news for us!


I knew posting "my name is xxxx" was going to get some funny replies...

Signing off...
My name is HHG, I am addicted to plastic, and regularly attend WA (Warhammer Anonymous) meetings...

[Soapstar]

 Third option with the knights is to flee as the charge reaction n hope the Ogre bus doesn't roll high enough to re direct to the stank and them fail the charge n shuffle forward a few inches. It has risks but is an option. This is actualy what I thought the ICK were doing didn't realise the bus could potentially hit the stank on a redirect is hard to see exact distances!

It's a gamble but could pay off the knights sold be within bsb/general range so you'd expect them to rally (although cant remember how big the unit was originaly and am too lazy to look but I think they are above 25% of their starting total)

[MrAbyssal]

My name is MrAbyssal and I shamelessly stole Soapstar's plastic crack.

3 dice Flesh to Stone on Greatswords
3 dice Regrowth on Steam Tank
2 dice Luminark bound spell at Sabre tusk
2 dice Shield of Faith on Greatswords
1 dice Hammer of Sigmar on Greatswords

This seems more or less the best route though as far as I'm concerned though Flesh to Stone and Regrowth are pretty much interchangeable. Realistically at this crucial part of the game we can't expect to dominate this magic phase due to the scroll, however if he fails that first dispel attempt then we're set. We could potentially 4 dice one of the Life spells though that would almost certainly draw the scroll. He may even try and save the scroll thinking of Dwellers, in which case the threat of that leaves us in a very good situation.

[George]

My name is George and I'm a long time empire player and have just started with ogres.

I feel the key thing to find out is whether the mournfang planning to charge the GS.
2 dice shield of faith on the GS

If the ogre player lets this through he is likely backing up with the  mournfang and planning to shoot some more. So I would followup with:
6 dice regrowth on the STank - hoping to push this through or make him use his scroll.
3 dice luminarch on the sabretusk - this guy will play havoc with our charges if we don't deal with him, though likely we don't get it off as the ogre player has 6 dispel dice left

If the shield of faith is stopped then the ogre player has likely used 2 or 3 dice allowing us to push through extra spells and/or get rid of his scroll
4 dice regrowth on the STank -most likely to pull the scroll out.
3 dice flesh to stone  on the GS - basically a 50/50 shot of getting through if the orge player uses all 4 dice
2 dice luminarch at the sabretusk - if the mournfang are charging this guy will charge the detacthment of halberds to prevent the counter charge so he needs to go.

The key things for me from this magic phase is to pull out the dispel scroll or regrowth the STank (either is fine) and get rid of the sabretusk if possible
With the scroll and sabretusk gone our next turn of charges/combats is likely to go how we plan it to.
We put the STank at the most risk, but the greatswords should be strong enough to hold and await support if none of the buffs get through and the mournfang charge them.

I also would have used the remaining knights in the same fashion....though I would have screwed up the angle making overrun a possibility

In the coming turn we should be trying to get one of the gnoblar units to panic (assuming out of the general's ld) in order to get the DGK knights in the back field to threaten the leadbelchers. Other wise their day is done and they'll only see gnoblars and sabres all day.

[commandant]

I'm not sure I agree with the movement idea.   I think you want the guthorde to charge the stank.   It is unlikely that they will kill it in one turn and the halberd horde can charge their flank the next turn.   The Stank will get beat up on but the lore of life wizard should be able to heal it enough and having it here would prevent the guthorde from turning to face the halberdiers.

The only way the halberdiers have a chance against the guthorde is if they get them in the flank.

A second theory would be to try and get off as many 2-3 dice lore of life spells as possible just for the +1 wound on the stank every time you do.

[Fandir Nightshade]

I agree that a veteran ogre player would just hold back and ironblaster us . . . Hmmm perhaps it would be better to luminark the ironblaster instead the sabretusk and hope killing it with archery

[commandant]

I'm not sure if I agree Fandir.   One Iron blaster is not going to do enough damage to our hordes to win the game and the other iron blaster has our DGKs to worry about.   Once the Greatswords move up to the Blessed Wall it will be really hard for the leadbelchers or ironblasters to damage them.

[zakalwe]

1 question about the Ogre ( reflecting) banner, how does it work, i have yet to encounter it. Is it one use?  Would it be possible to use a hurricanum blast to use it up, allowing a dwellers in later turns?


Zakalwe

-2 dice shield on GS.  And see how he reacts

I think that if he fears regrowth going off on the steam tank,  we can  get the other 2 buff life spells off, flesh on the GS preferably and shield perhaps on the knights, we then get at least 2 wounds back on the ST.

Also is anything within dwellers range? Basic lvl preferably. I would consider dwellers on the mounfang over regrowth on the ST, depending on dice left over

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I think you want the guthorde to charge the stank.   It is unlikely that they will kill it in one turn

The Gutbus versus a tank with full wounds is a bad idea for the Ogre player.

However, there is no guarantee that we are going to get any healing off on the STank on our turn and 6 wounds is doable... especially if he dual charges it with the Fangs and the Bus.  Granted, we know now that we have lots of dice to deal with in magic phase, but we didn't know that during our movement phase.

I am all about being aggressive, but it is too early to be cavalier with our steel behemoth.

On this note-  I don't mind debating the merits of past actions (we all learn something by others thoughts) but the purpose of the TDG is to focus on the present to make decisions about the future.  If I fast forward the battle and make a move you wouldn't make, pretend as if you made a quick blunder or that our troops didn't execute what you wanted them to (happens ALL the time in war) and work with the cards we are dealt.


The Current Vote

Regrowth  (STank)        4 dice     (Commandant)                1
                                   3 dice     (Sammay)                       1
Flesh to Stone (GS)        4 dice     (Emp-Ulric)                     1
                                   3 dice     (Fandir, Soap, MrA, HHG)  4
Solheim’s Bolt (Sabre)   2 dice     (Zif)                               1
Shield of Faith (GS)        2 dice     (George,Zak)                   2

***As always, if I missed your vote it messed it up, let me know.  Like before, if you want to change your vote before I close it out, post away.


I think Sammay’s comments about the Ogre player possibly holding back are valid.  Like George and Zak, I also like getting into Bruiser’s mind to see if he wants to hit the GS with the Fangs.  I personally don’t want to get Flesh to Stone off on the Greatswords…because then we are forcing Bruiser to hold back.  I would like to see the GS buffed, but not to the extent where Bruiser makes the calculation it is not worth it.

With that being said, I recommend starting off with a 3 dice Flesh to Stone on the GS-  because I don’t think he is going to let it go and it will suck DD dice out of his pool.  Like others have posted, if he lets that get through, we KNOW he is going to hold back and we react accordingly for the rest of the magic phase.  Fortunately, we have the Power Dice (and the magic advantage now) to do it.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Thanks one more time for doing this Holyhandgrenade it is a great addition to the forum in a time when it started to fall asleep just a little bit.

If he holds back we can try to gain ranged dominance by stank cannoning the ironblasters to the face.

[zifnab0]

With that being said, I recommend starting off with a 3 dice Flesh to Stone on the GS-  because I don’t think he is going to let it go and it will suck DD dice out of his pool.

I tend to think differently.  I don't want to force him to throw dice at everything early.  I want him to hold on to those dice until he sees our last few casts, then try to use them.

If I have a bad roll (or IF) on an early spell, he doesn't spend DD.  If that occurs early in the phase, he'll use those DD against prayers or other spells.  If it occurs later in the phase, he loses the DD.  Any DD he doesn't spend gives us an advantage.

[commandant]

I might consider flesh to stone on the stank rather than the GWs though.   That way the stank is not a very good chargeable option.

[George]

Everyone seems concerned about being outshot by cannons, but these will only be aimed at our toys like the STank luminarch or DGK.
I am more concerned about the shooting prowess of the leadbelchers. 6 of these guys can do a lot of damage to our infantry over 1 or 2 shooting phases.
This is why the ogre player will sit back and shoot....he has the power to deal with both the toys and the ranked units with shooting.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Thanks one more time for doing this Holyhandgrenade it is a great addition to the forum in a time when it started to fall asleep just a little bit.

Thanks for the props, Fandir.  Means a lot coming from you!  I am having as much fun thinking/conducting the TDG as I would playing a game!

----------------
Side note-  I apologize, I should have posted this earlier:  our Wizard has no target in 18" range for the Dwellers.  The Fangs are at 19-20"

Don't hesitate to ask me for a measurement at any time!