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Author Topic: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF  (Read 16673 times)

Offline Gondarion

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Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« on: December 13, 2007, 06:48:22 PM »
Myself and a few others have been working on this off and on for awhile now.
here are the ideas we've had so far.  As I said, we're still in the
early stages, this is closer to a blueprint than a draft.  In fact, I'm not
at all convinced these are all the issues we'd like to address, and I'd love
it if you could suggest rules/elements of the game to work on (even
something as vague as "it would be cool if (this idea/image) was in the
rules".  Anyway, here is what I've got so far.
 
                                  PREMISE
 
The goal of this project is NOT to propose a revision, but rather a
supplement for the game.  This is about addition, even the changes are
additions since they're optional, basically an alternative way of playing.
The additions/changes will ideally balance each other out, but players can
pick and choose too if they wish, in a casual/club setting.  Ultimately,
this is all about adding to the fun of the game. The main goals of this
project:
 
1. Greater Tactical Options.   Many players love the tactical element
of this game, and would like to see more tactical options within the rules,
as long as they fit into the character of WHF.  This will be an essential
proviso, but as long as this is done without compromising the other much
beloved elements, this can only add to the enjoyment of the game.
 
2. Realism.  Warhammer is a battle simulator, and unless the rules
furthered in a satisfactory manner the idea of this being an epic fantasy
battle between majestic miniature armies, a great deal of the drama and fun
would be lost.  Good game mechanics are the priority, but in a game as
meticulous as Warhammer, as much accuracy and realism as possible is a good
thing, and I think more can be done here.  However, the main point here
is...
 
3. More Killing!.  For a game based on melee combat, filled with big
monsters and supernatural characters of terrible power, there is just too
little killing in this game; static CR is too important in comparison to
causing casualties, and this is a detriment to the fun of the game.  This is
the overriding goal in this project.  After all, this is a War Game.


                            CORE MECHANICS

-All units in Special slotting which had the ability to be purchased in multiples for a single slot lose this ability.  So for example, dwarven or goblin ballistae lose this, but dark elf bolt throwers or chaos spawn do not, since they are rare choices.
                     
 
 
                          RULES  (thus far)
 
             Special Unit Formations
 
-Any regiment of troops led by a character or champion, or within 12" of the
general, may attempt to change formation at the beginning of any movement
phase in which they are not fleeing or in combat.  To change formation, the
regiment must take a LD test.  The general's LD, or that of any character in
the unit may be used, but army-specific rules such as cold-blooded or
strength in numbers do not apply.  A unit with a musician may add +1 to this roll, but this may not stck with the LD of the general; if within 12" of the general, a unit must use his unmodified LD.  If passed, the unit has
successfully changed formation, and all the rules for the new formation
apply; if failed the unit maintains the formation they are in at present,
but may not march this turn, and any enemy regiment charging them in the
opponents next turn gains +1 to hit them in combat, due to the general
confusion.  Any unit in a special formation must take a further LD test using the aforementioned rules if wishing to reform.  Any unit which is broken in combat, or is pursuing a broken foe, will automatically return to normal formation after the sequence of events is determined.  A unit which breaks an enemy and successfully restrains pursuit also loses any special formation they were in, but may immediately test to regain it, using the aforementioned rules.  The unit formations (thus far) are as follows:
 
1. Loose Formation:  Any regiment on foot may attempt to
form a loose formation.  A regiment in loose formation may move through any
type of terrain bar impassible with no movement penalty.  If armed with
missile weapons, they gain a 360% LOS for the purposes of shooting, although
only models along the sides of the regiment can fire.  Units in loose formation may not reform. However, units in Loose Formation gain no rank bonus in combat.
 
2. Shield Wall:  Any unit on foot of US10 or greater and
armed with shields may attempt to form a shield wall.  Models in a unit in
the shield wall formation gain +2AS against missile fire at all times.  In combat, they gain +1 to their armour save for the first round of combat only.   However, they may not fire missile weapons, nor may they use two-handed weapons.  Units in a
shield wall formation may not march, and their basic M value is halved,
rounding up.  If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US10, they are returned to normal formation immediately.
 
3. Spear Wall: Any regiment of troops on foot of US10 or
greater and armed with spears or halberds may attempt to form a spear wall.
While in this formation, the unit may not charge or march, nor may it move
forward or backward in any way; the only maneuvers they may perform while in
this formation are Turn, Wheel and reform.  Any mounted model charging a unit in spear wall formation to the front is hit with 1 impact hit for each defender in base-to-base contact who is carrying a halberd or spear;  monsters declaring a Monstrous Assault, or charging normally from over half distance away, are hit in the same manner; flying monsters always count as charging from half distance away, due to their high speed.  This hit is at the strength of the mount/monster, +2 if charging from above half charge distance away.  Models charging this way into a spear wall are not hit in this manner if they are not in base-to-base contact with a model in the defending unit which is carrying a halberd or spear.    If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US10, they are returned to normal formation immediately.
 
4. Wedge Formation:  Any regimented of mounted models
with US5 or higher who are not subject to the rules for fast cavalry (or do not have another specified formation, such as the Lance Formation) may
attempt to form a wedge formation.  Whilst in this formation, any shooting directed at this unit gains +1 to hit.  When charging, any model in a unit in wedge formation inflicts 1 impact hit. This is at the strength of the mount (including any charge bonuses), +1 if charging from half charge distance away.  Note that impact hits inflicted by a spear wall or by pikes are worked out before those caused by wedge formation.   If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US5, they are returned to normal formation immediately.

Note:  The "spear staffs" of the Eternal Guard in the Wood Elf army list count as spears, but not shields, for the purposes of unit formations.
 
         Monstrous Assault
 
-Any individual model of US3 or greater, or unit of models US3 or greater,
discounting those subject to the rules for chariots or flying cavalry may,
if they're over half charge distance away, declare a special charge called a
Monstrous Assault.  Any model performing a monstrous charge inflicts
a number of impact hits on the defending unit equal to the US of the charger
(if a mounted monster, the rider does not count).  If the defending unit has
a collective Initiative value higher than the charger, subtract 1 impact hit
for each point of difference.  Impact hits are resolved at the basic
strength of the monster.  Note that these impact hits are resolved after
those inflicted by a spear wall or pikes.  Any model performing a monstrous
charge automatically strikes last in the ensuing combat, and is hit at no
worse than a 2+.  If a model/unit declares a monstrous charge and cannot
reach charge distance, treat this as a normal failed charge.
 
Note:  units in the Ogre Kingdoms army list are especially adept at
these kinds of maneuvers.  Any unit from this army list who performs a monstrous
charge does not automatically strike last, but rather in the order of
Initiative (modifiers, such as the "slways strike first" rule in the high elf army, apply as normal).  In addition, impact hits from this maneuver gain +1S for each
rank beyond the first.  Note that these need not be full ranks, but that any
ogre without an ogre-sized model behind him does not gain this bonus.
 
                  Weapons and Armour
 
The following changes have been made:
 
-The hand weapons and shield bonus no longer exists.
 
-In combat, the armour save bonus for both mount and barding only apply when
facing enemies of equal or inferior US (or against chariots US4 or lower).  So a knight may get this save when fighting infantry or other knights, but not when fighting ogres or larger foes.  Note that this only applies to base US; items and such which augment basic US do not apply here.
 
-Any unit armed with halberds may fight in two ranks when charged and in
subsequent rounds of combat.  However, the +1S bonus applies only to models
in the first rank.

-Units armed with halberds and spears may only use their full complement of Attacks in the front rank, or if the front rank model directly in front of another is killed in combat before the second rank has a chance to strike.  For example, a chosen warrior of Khorne may only attack once with his halberd if in the second rank, but may make his full complement of attacks if in the front rank, OR if the model directly in front of him is killed (i.e. monster impact hits).
 
-Pikes no longer count as a weapon which may be used in combat.  Instead,
any unit armed with pikes counts as always being in a spear wall, except
that they may move and charge as normal, although the pike gives no bonus
when charging or fighting normally.  If charged in the front, pikes cause
hits in the same way as a spear wall, except that the second rank causes
impact hits as well.  Charging enemies in base-to-base contact are hit not
only by the corresponding defender as normal, but by the model right behind
him as well.

-Battle Standard Bearers in ALL armies may buy equipment as per the new High Elf army list
 
Bows and Longbows may be used as normal, but gain a special firing ability
called Volley Fire.  As with monstrous charge, declare that you are
using volley fire at the start of the corresponding phase.  The following
rules apply to volley fire:
 
-A unit electing to volley fire must be in basic formation, but may fire in
any number of ranks.  Both friendly and enemy troops do not count as an
obstruction for the purposes of LOS, and as such you may attempt to fire at
an enemy you cannot see.  However, you must fire in the direction the unit
is facing, in their 180% arc of sight.
 
-When electing to volley fire, do not roll to hit as normal.  Instead, you
must guess the range to the target.  If you guessed the correct distance, or
within a margin of error equal to the BS of the shooters (for instance, if
you guess 17" and the target is within 20", and you have BS3, you've made
it), then roll to hit for each arrow at a basic 4+, -1 if the unit is
skirmishing, -2 if a single target.  If any part of
the targeted unit is within the guessed range, you've still hit.  If you
failed the guess, the arrows all miss.

-Any unit on foot and armed with bows, longbows or crossbows may purchase flaming arrows for +1 point if armed with bows/longbows, +2 if armed with crossbows.  In addition to counting as flaming attacks, flaming arrows impose a -1 to any panic tests in any phase in which a unit suffers casualties from flaming arrows.
 
-Any unit of troops subject to the rules for "skirmish" or "fast cavalry" may attempt to make a "fire and flee maneuver" when charged, as a substitute for their normal "flee" charge reaction.  This is exactly like a flee, except that the unit may fire any missile weapons they possess whilst doing so.  The modifier for stand and shoot applies here, and any shots (except for thrown weapons) fired by fast cavalry in this manner always count as long-ranged, for a total of -2 (further modifiers apply as well).  Skirmishers do not suffer the -1 for long range, as they're more coordinated in this maneuver.  Units with multi-shot weapons may only fire one shot when performing a fire and flee maneuver.  Since this is a variation of the "flee" charge reaction, fast cavalry who subsequently rally may move and shoot as normal.             

Chariots
 
These are by far the newest rules, they're VERY RUDIMENTARY.  What matters
is the basic concept, which is to change chariots from shock troops to what
I call "heavy harassment".  Note that chariot regiments (as found in Tomb
King armies), as well as the Black Coach, War alter, Snotling Pump Wagon,
and the Steam Tank are still subject to the old rules for chariots (they
will get a new designation).  Otherwise, the changes to chariots are as
follows.
 
-Chariots maintain their composite profile in the same way as now.  However,
characters mounted in chariots add +2 to their armour save when fighting
enemies US2 or lower, as well as against flying cavalry and other chariots.
 
-Chariots no longer do impact hits as normal when charging into combat.
When charging, a chariot may choose to wheel the bulk of the chariot into
the enemy, which inflicts d3 impact hits at the basic strength of the
chariot.  However, this maneuver also inflicts d3 impact hits on the chariot
itself, at the strength of the enemy.  Choosing this maneuver when charging
means the beasts pulling the chariot may not attack, however.
 
-Chariots gain the "hit and run" rule.  In addition, when fleeing as a
result of a hit and run, a chariot may choose to perform the aforementioned
wheel maneuver, even if it has done so this turn. This does not count as
being part of combat, as combat resolution has already been resolved.
 
-models firing missile weapons from chariots suffer no penalty to move and
shoot.  In addition, they may fire when charging into combat with no
penalty, instead gaining +1 to hit with this shooting, although this
shooting does not count towards combat resolution.  They may also fire with
no penalty on any turn they rally, as well as when fleeing from combat as a
result of a hit and run, although they are at -1 to hit in the latter case.
 
-If passing within 1" of an enemy model/unit, any model in the chariot (not
the beasts pulling it) may attempt to swipe at the enemy as they move by.   
These models may attack the enemy as normal, and the enemy cannot return
these attacks, unless the enemy is a chariot, in which case use Initiative
order to decide who strikes first.  Note that there is no combat resolution
as a result of this since it does not take place in the combat phase, and
you can only perform this special attack when moving and in the movement
phase.

                             Magic

-Random spell generation as a universal rule no longer exists.  Any wizard may choose their spells if using a single lore.  If a wizard (such as a slann mage priest) has and chooses the ability to acquire spells from multiple lores, he may only choose his first spell, and must randomly determine the spells from the other lores.

-Any wizard who is maintaining a Remains in Play spell may, after declaring he is maintaining it, attempt to cast spells in spite of that.  To do this, the wizard must equal or exceed the basic cost of the RIP spell, by rolling a number of dice, the maximum being his magic level (these are not power dice).  If he succeeds, he may cast spells while maintaining a single RIP spell; if failed the RIP spell ends as if he had elected to cease maintaining it.  If 2 or more 1's are rolled, the wizard has caused magic instability, and he is immediately affected as if a roll of a '7' on the miscast chart had occurred.

-Any number of wizards within 6" of each other may attempt to "chain-cast" a spell, which allows them to pool their personal PD towards a single spell attempt.  They may only do this if they all have the spell in question in each of their arsenals, and none of the wizards may exceed their normal casting limit (though all modifiers apply as normal).  If the spell has a set range, the target of the spell must be in range of each of the mages; if the spell has a set radius, choose one of the casting wizards as the starting point.  If the result of this is a miscast, each wizard is affected by the result (if one of the mages has an item that prevents or mitigates miscast effects, this does NOT protect the other mages).  If the spell is a RIP spell, all the wizards must maintain it together.  However, they may add their levels together for the purposes of casting while maintaining.  If 2 or more 1's are rolled when attempting this, all the wizards are affected by this result.  If any of the wizards flees or is killed, any spell cast or maintained by the group of wizards is ended immediately.

Wizards have the ability to use basic "battle spells" in the heat of combat which are too minor to require outside power, and are not noticed by opposing magic users.  Wizards may make use of a list of standardised combat spells.  A wizard attempting to use these abilities may not fight in the following close combat phase.  A wizard may make a single attempt to use one of the following abilities (there will be an even 6 eventually).  This is done by attempting to equal or surpass the casting roll using a single die, to which half his magic level (rounded up) is added.

4+ Blast: St 4 hit to enemy models in base to base.
5+ Binding:  Enemy is at -1 to hit the wizard.
6+. Shield: Wizard Enemy is at -1 to wound the wizard
7+ Minion; Wizard is moved out of combat and a basic statline (Ws2 St3 T3 etc) takes his place
8+ Destruction: Wizard causes D6 St 6 hits on the enemy. Remove models closest to the wizard.

Note:  None of these magic rules apply to wizards in the ogre kingdoms army list, whose magical rules and abilities are so unique to themselves that they make no use of these abilities, and it is doubted they are aware of them in the least.
 
So, thats about all I have right now.   Hope to hear from you, not just with
your opinions, but also hopefully with some suggestions  Smiley                             
« Last Edit: December 25, 2007, 05:53:38 PM by Gondarion »
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3

Offline Sigmork

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 08:46:51 PM »
A nice list of changes, although the shield wall and spear wall could need some getting used to.

A few suggestions:-

1. Cavalry should need to take a ld test to charge any units using a spear wall in the front.

2. Spear walls and shield walls should only confer bonuses to the front of the unit

3. Perhaps shield walls should give a 2+ AS to the first round of combat

4. Chariots seem a bit underpowered now, as most of their price costing is based on their impact hits

5. Chain casting might need a limit on the amount of wizards that can cast together (so no impossibly hard spells e.g. 3 wizards and a lord using 14 dice for 1 spell)

6. You might want to clarify pistoliers using the fire and flee maneuver, pistols don't suffer penalties.

7. Pistols should be able to use multiple shot when fire and fleeing - the pistols would be shot simultaneously

8. Perhaps have specials and rares more like lords and heroes, where you can choose what you want, e.g. you could have 6 specials and no rares but you couldn't have more than two rares, I know people might think this is a bit overpowering, but the same could be done with heroes.


Just my thoughts
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Offline Mystic Force

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2007, 08:53:47 PM »
Some sort of fighting withdrawl would be good, a difficult but useful maneuver, something like a leadership test could be used to test and if you fail they flee. if succesful you end up half your movement distance away facing the enemy you moved away from. cant be performed if engaged to the flank or rear.

This would allow the enemy to charge you in their subsequent turn, but could be used to pull an enemy into position for a flank charge, or some such at the risk of your unit fleeing
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Offline Shadowwolf

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2007, 09:14:40 PM »
Me like :-)

I did a few things like these a while ago, but not so fundamental changes. I really like the special formations for infantry, but perhaps this should not be availiable for all armies. I could not think of goblins forming up in a perfect shield wall.

I think the addition of mortal steeds would also fit with these rules. As it is now, you can kill the rider, but not the horse. It would also be a great motivation to buy barding for your characters' warhorses.

Great work!

Shadowwolf
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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2007, 09:22:44 PM »
Few q's

Do the units that inflict impact hits also get their normal attacks?

Seems a little overpowered


I thought a cool rule maybe you could add:

Friendly wizards within 12" of the caster of a spell may spend (1-2? Probably 2) power dice to allow the re-roll of a single dice used to cast a spell

The original caster may not use his own dice nor may wizards use pool dice


I like the rules you have made... ill see if  I can convince my friends to try them sometime
Long time Wood Elf and Empire player with newly acquired High Elves

Offline BAWTRM

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 08:03:03 AM »
5. Chain casting might need a limit on the amount of wizards that can cast together (so no impossibly hard spells e.g. 3 wizards and a lord using 14 dice for 1 spell)

You did catch the part about all of them suffering the same miscast result? I'd love for my enemy to throw 14 dice at 1 spell with all 4 of his wizards. The chances of not rolling at least two '1's are really small.
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Offline cisse

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 01:46:57 PM »
One thing that sprung out to me was the "monstrous assault" rule. I think it's a tad... well, it's just too much. A large flying creature could easily break entire ranked units on its own with a frontal charge thanks to this rule. Forget being hit at 2+ and striking last, with high T and AS a dragon and its rider wouldn't be bothered anyway.

For units of ogre-sized models, this rule seems a bit better.

Quote
3. More Killing!.  For a game based on melee combat, filled with big
monsters and supernatural characters of terrible power, there is just too
little killing in this game; static CR is too important in comparison to
causing casualties, and this is a detriment to the fun of the game.  This is
the overriding goal in this project.  After all, this is a War Game.
Couldn't disagree more that static CR is too important as it is now. In fact, it might be even more important for me: it seems like hero-hammer is returning, the latest army books all have very powerful characters and combo's. Basic infantry gets left out more and more.

I agree that more tactical options and more realism could be a good thing, though.
cisse

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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 05:45:17 PM »
I would make all large targets in the game unbreakable or stubborn automatically, unless they take a wound.  Does not seem very likely that a dragon or what not would flee just because some little dudes pushed it.
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Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 04:02:42 AM »
Quote
CORE MECHANICS

-All units in Special slotting which had the ability to be purchased in multiples for a single slot lose this ability.  So for example, dwarven or goblin ballistae lose this, but dark elf bolt throwers or chaos spawn do not, since they are rare choices.
WHY?  These war machines are two for one because they are weaker then other war machines.  It typically takes two Bolt Throwers to do the job of one Cannon  For my Dwarves, I prefer a low tech approach.  I have four unpainted metal cannons but the fluff of my throng is low tech.  I don't want to be forced to take cannons.  Having an arbitrary squeeze on special slots without the courtesy to explain why or to offer some benefit in exchange, would leave me to ignore the entire exercise.  It is even more difficult to phantom why the same logic does not apply to rares.  This is almost a case of lets pick on Orcs and Dwarves, and kick back with a beer with our Dark Elf buddies.

The International Brotherhood of Stone & Bolt Throwers, Local's 13 (Orcs) and 7 (Dwarves) will picket this unfair rule.

 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 04:21:50 AM by Rufas the Eccentric »
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2007, 04:02:34 PM »
I really like the special formations for infantry, but perhaps this should not be availiable for all armies. I could not think of goblins forming up in a perfect shield wall

It is hard to imagine goblins forming into a shield wall, but its not impossible that a particularly cunning goblin warboss would "inspire" them, right?  I think the LD mechanic is perfect here, because it means that goblins can change formation, but with their low LD it isn't likely, so its a real risk to attempt.

As to monstrous assault, I agree it needs testing, and if necessary we'll remove some stuff or add in drawbacks.  However, I think the Initiative rule and the spear wall mitigates these somewhat.  Arguably, the spear wall in particular is such a threat to big monsters that monstrous charge could be only an occasional thing.

When I say there is too little killing, I meant game-wide.  Obviously, Archaon and such can kill tons of guys, but there isn't enough killing between basic troops; they mainly just sit there.  Stuff like removing HW+S and improving halberds helps infantry have a easier time killing each other, and all the new stuff regarding impact hits adds more carnage to the game too, which I think is a plus.

With regards to the removal of 2 for 1 specials: currently, a dwarf or O+G army can have 8 bolt throwers in 2000 points.  Thats just not something that is okay.  Personally, I think its far worse than facing 8 elven RBT, because those are so expensive there wouldn't be an army left (you certainly couldn't do it 2000 points).  The incredibly cheap cost of both dwarf and goblin ballistae is enough to encourage them, and anything that discourages gunlines is progress in my book.  However, the thing about this advanced ruleset is that you can use any, all or none of it as you please.  So by all means, do what you will :-)

Thanks for the input everyone, please keep it coming!
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3

Offline Sigmork

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2007, 04:42:17 PM »
Another possible change would be instead of all units within 12" of the general may change formation, have it only one (including the unit the General is) as the general couldn't organize say 4 units to change formation in the same turn.
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Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2007, 11:31:52 PM »
Well yes you could field eight Bolt Throwers, but then you cut yourself off all of the other nifty special choices.  If some one is foolish enough to take eight Bolt Throwers, let him. There are several problems with your approach. 

First most of what you have created is additions to the rules set.  When you take something away, such as the sword and shield rule it is a effects all armies equally.  You yourself state the rule effects Orcs and Dwarves but not Dark Elves or Chaos. 

The rule only effects some army books while leaving others untouched effects the competitiveness of certain armies.  If you revoked the rules for fear, it would clearly weaken Vampires and Tomb Kings

Then there is the impact on the units themselves. Most Dwarves already prefer Cannons and Organ Guns over the Bolt Throwers.  About the only reason to select the Bolt Thrower is the fact that you can get two for one special slot.  The rule as proposed will simply lead to cookie cutter armies.  Personally, I like the fluff of the Bolt Thrower (even though mine can't hit the broad side of a barn) and run a virtually black powder free army.

Now you say this is a smörgåsbord, take what you wish.  That's O.K for a one off game, but your proposed rules have promise (if they didn't I would not be complaining) and it would be best to work out a set that can be taken as a whole.  For this to work the rules need to be worked out in a manner that treats each army equally.  Elimination of two for one violates the neutrality required for an extension.

Is eight Bolt Throwers cheesy?  Yes. I have a suspicion that you were on the receiving end of such a list once.  But there are many other ways to cheese up a list.  I don't like gunlines either.

But making changes to specific army lists is opening a can of worms.  If you insist on doing this, can I please have a magic banner for Greatswords and BS5 for Engineers and heavy armor for Halberdiers and move & shoot for Outriders?  Can you un-nerf the Helblaster while your at it?   I would suggest leaving the army books alone for now and concentrating on a workable set of generic rules.

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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2007, 06:55:54 PM »
Rufas,

I agree with everything you said on principle.  I absolutely do NOT want to threaten the neutrality of this ruleset by flooding it with army-specific rules.  My intention was to do what I could to eliminate some of the worst and easiest gunline potential in  WHF, which I felt was just good for the game.  Since it affected more than 1 army in particular, I felt it was okay.  I  think 2 for 1 specials is simply a bad mechanic, since it allows fielding of SO many of the same unit type, which leads to extreme armies which just aren't much fun.  I realize there are example of similar things, such as hordes of cheap empire handgunners or chaos/high elf chariot armies, which do not go addressed by this.  However, I'd rather address the broken mechanics than not; the intention is not to hamper individual armies, but instead to alter problematic game-wide mechanics.  If we can find ways to do this in a manner that fixes more of them and therefore discriminates less against certain armies, so much the better.

All that being said, we could still remove this rule.  However, it seems to me at this point such a positive change that I'll need more convincing.  And speaking as a prospective O+G player (I'm already stockpiling models) I'd still have at least 1 goblin bolt thrower if not two, even without the 2 for 1; the insanely low cost is more than enough incentive IMO.
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Offline Sigmork

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2007, 07:05:34 PM »
Perhaps keep 2 for 1 but cap the limit on using half the slots. e.g. in a 2000pt army you could take up to four bolt throwers, taking up 2 slots but are not allowed any more bolt throwers
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Offline Midaski

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2007, 07:49:04 PM »
Perhaps keep 2 for 1 but cap the limit on using half the slots. e.g. in a 2000pt army you could take up to four bolt throwers, taking up 2 slots but are not allowed any more bolt throwers

Or only allow ONE 2 for 1, and thereafter you only get One item for each slot - ie you would get 3 bolt throwers for two slots and 4 for three slots.
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2007, 05:01:18 AM »
A nice list of changes, although the shield wall and spear wall could need some getting used to.

2. Spear walls and shield walls should only confer bonuses to the front of the unit

3. Perhaps shield walls should give a 2+ AS to the first round of combat

4. Chariots seem a bit underpowered now, as most of their price costing is based on their impact hits

6. You might want to clarify pistoliers using the fire and flee maneuver, pistols don't suffer penalties.

-Spear walls do, its stated in the rules.  As for shield wall, I suppose it should too, I'll clarify that.

-It originally gave +2, but we decided that was too good and got in the way of more killing in combat.

-Yeah, we'll have to look at the chariots, I understand they might not be worth their cost yet.

-Thanks, will do
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Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2007, 06:46:02 PM »
I don't mind the limit of two slots for 2/1 war machines.  I agree that 8 bolt throwers is ridiculous.

As I said, your project has potential.  Once you nail down the first version, the next step is to get some play testing in.
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2007, 05:44:27 PM »
Ok everybody,

I'm posting an updated version with alot of new stuff.


                             
                           
Quote
CORE MECHANICS

-All units in Special slotting which had the ability to be purchased in multiples for a single slot lose this ability.  So for example, dwarven or goblin ballistae lose this, but dark elf bolt throwers or chaos spawn do not, since they are rare choices.
                     
-Any model rolling to hit using either WS or BS, and one which is hitting on a 2+, inflicts a PRECISION STRIKE on any roll of a 6 to hit.  A precision strike is a hit which, if it successfully wounds, ignores armour saves.

-This is the new To Hit chart.  Its similar to the current one, but is a bit more sensible I think.  Note that the To Wound chart stays as is.
 
        1     2       3     4       5       6       7      8     9       10
1     4+   5+    5+   5+     6+    6+    6+    6+    6+      6+
2     3+   4+    4+   5+     5+    5+    5+    5+    5+      6+
3     3+   3+    4+   4+     4+    5+    5+    5+    5+      5+
4     2+   3+    3+   4+     4+    4+    4+    5+    5+      5+
5     2+   3+    3+   3+     4+    4+    4+    4+    4+      5+
6     2+   3+    3+   3+     3+    4+    4+    4+    4+      4+
7     2+   2+    3+   3+     3+    3+    4+    4+    4+      4+
8     2+   2+    3+   3+     3+    3+    3+    4+    4+      4+
9     2+   2+    3+   3+     3+    3+    3+    3+    4+      4+
10    2+   2+    2+   3+    3+     3+    3+    3+     3+      4+


 
 
                          RULES  (thus far)
 
             Special Unit Formations
 
-Any regiment of troops led by a character or champion, or within 12" of the
general, may attempt to change formation at the beginning of any movement
phase in which they are not fleeing or in combat.  Note that troops may not change formations whilst frenzied; if they become frenzied and are in a special formation, they return to normal formation immediately.  To change formation, the
regiment must take a LD test.  The general's LD, or that of any character in
the unit may be used, but army-specific rules such as cold-blooded or
strength in numbers do not apply.  A unit with a musician may add +1 to this roll, but this may not stck with the LD of the general; if within 12" of the general, a unit must use his unmodified LD.  If passed, the unit has
successfully changed formation, and all the rules for the new formation
apply; if failed the unit maintains the formation they are in at present,
but may not march this turn, and any enemy regiment charging them in the
opponents next turn gains +1 to hit them in combat, due to the general
confusion.  Any unit in a special formation must take a further LD test using the aforementioned rules if wishing to reform.  Any unit which is broken in combat, or is pursuing a broken foe, will automatically return to normal formation after the sequence of events is determined.  A unit which breaks an enemy and successfully restrains pursuit also loses any special formation they were in, but may immediately test to regain it, using the aforementioned rules.  The unit formations (thus far) are as follows:
 
1. Loose Formation:  Any regiment on foot may attempt to
form a loose formation.  A regiment in loose formation may move through any
type of terrain bar impassible with no movement penalty.  If armed with
missile weapons, they gain a 360% LOS for the purposes of shooting, although
only models along the sides of the regiment can fire.  Units in loose formation may not reform. However, units in Loose Formation gain no rank bonus in combat.
 
2. Shield Wall:  Any unit on foot of US10 or greater and
armed with shields may attempt to form a shield wall.  Models in a unit in
the shield wall formation gain +2AS against missile fire from the front and sides at all times; this bonus never works against shooting directed at the rear of the unit.  In combat, they gain +1 to their armour save for the first round of combat only, and only against enemies attacking the unit to the front.   However, they may not fire missile weapons, nor may they use two-handed weapons.  Units in a shield wall formation may not march, and their basic M value is halved, rounding up.  If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US10, they are returned to normal formation immediately.
 
3. Spear Wall: Any regiment of troops on foot of US10 or
greater and armed with spears or halberds may attempt to form a spear wall. 
While in this formation, the unit may not charge or march, nor may it move
forward or backward in any way; the only maneuvers they may perform while in
this formation are Turn, Wheel and reform.  Any mounted model charging a unit in spear wall formation to the front is hit with 1 impact hit for each defender in base-to-base contact who is carrying a halberd or spear;  monsters declaring a Monstrous Assault, or charging normally from over half distance away, are hit in the same manner; flying monsters always count as charging from half distance away, due to their high speed.  This hit is at the strength of the mount/monster, +2 if charging from above half charge distance away.  Models charging this way into a spear wall are not hit in this manner if they are not in base-to-base contact with a model in the defending unit which is carrying a halberd or spear.    If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US10, they are returned to normal formation immediately.
 
4. Wedge Formation:  Any regimented of mounted models
with US5 or higher who are not subject to the rules for fast cavalry (or do not have another specified formation, such as the Lance Formation) may
attempt to form a wedge formation.  Whilst in this formation, any shooting directed at this unit gains +1 to hit.  When charging, any model in a unit in wedge formation inflicts 1 impact hit. This is at the strength of the mount (including any charge bonuses), +1 if charging from half charge distance away.  Note that impact hits inflicted by a spear wall or by pikes are worked out before those caused by wedge formation.   If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US5, they are returned to normal formation immediately.

Note:  The "spear staffs" of the Eternal Guard in the Wood Elf army list count as spears, but not shields, for the purposes of unit formations.
 
         Monstrous Assault
 
-Any individual model of US3 or greater, or unit of models US3 or greater,
discounting those subject to the rules for chariots or flying cavalry may,
if they're over half charge distance away, declare a special charge called a
Monstrous Assault.  Any model performing a monstrous charge inflicts
a number of impact hits on the defending unit equal to the US of the charger
(if a mounted monster, the rider does not count).  If the defending unit has
a collective Initiative value higher than the charger, subtract 1 impact hit
for each point of difference.  Impact hits are resolved at the basic
strength of the monster.  Note that these impact hits are resolved after
those inflicted by a spear wall or pikes.  Any model performing a monstrous
charge automatically strikes last in the ensuing combat, and is hit at no
worse than a 2+.  If a model/unit declares a monstrous charge and cannot
reach charge distance, treat this as a normal failed charge.
 
Note:  units in the Ogre Kingdoms army list are especially adept at
these kinds of maneuvers.  Any unit from this army list who performs a monstrous
charge does not automatically strike last, but rather in the order of
Initiative (modifiers, such as the "slways strike first" rule in the high elf army, apply as normal).  In addition, impact hits from this maneuver gain +1S for each
rank beyond the first.  Note that these need not be full ranks, but that any
ogre without an ogre-sized model behind him does not gain this bonus.
 
                  Weapons and Armour
 
The following changes have been made:
 
-The hand weapons and shield bonus no longer exists. 

-Any model fighting with a magical or mundane hand weapon (i.e sword of might, but not white sword or things catcher) gets +1 to hit if it has at least double the Initiative value of the enemy model it is attacking.
 
-In combat, the armour save bonus for both mount and barding only apply when
facing enemies of equal or inferior US (or against chariots US4 or lower).  So a knight may get this save when fighting infantry or other knights, but not when fighting ogres or larger foes.  Note that this only applies to base US; items and such which augment basic US do not apply here.
 
-Any unit armed with halberds may fight in two ranks when charged and in
subsequent rounds of combat.  However, the +1S bonus applies only to models
in the first rank.

-Units armed with halberds and spears may only use their full complement of Attacks in the front rank, or if the front rank model directly in front of another is killed in combat before the second rank has a chance to strike.  For example, a chosen warrior of Khorne may only attack once with his halberd if in the second rank, but may make his full complement of attacks if in the front rank, OR if the model directly in front of him is killed (i.e. monster impact hits).
 
-Pikes can now be used effectively in two ways.  If in normal formation, pikemen may fight in 4 ranks in the first round of combat, whether charging or receiving a charge; they receive no bonuses in subsequent rounds.  Pikemen are also well trained in the art of the spear wall.  If electing to form a spear wall, units armed with pikes may automatically attain this formation, they need not test for it.  When in spear wall formation, all rules for that formation apply.  However, if charged in the front,  the second rank of pikes causes impact hits as well;  charging enemies in base-to-base contact are hit not only by the corresponding defender as normal, but also by the model right behind him.

-Battle Standard Bearers in ALL armies may buy equipment as per the new High Elf army list
 
Bows and Longbows may be used as normal, but gain a special firing ability
called Volley Fire.  As with monstrous charge, declare that you are
using volley fire at the start of the corresponding phase.  The following
rules apply to volley fire:
 
-A unit electing to volley fire must be in basic formation, but may fire in
any number of ranks.  Both friendly and enemy troops do not count as an
obstruction for the purposes of LOS, and as such you may attempt to fire at
an enemy you cannot see.  However, you must fire in the direction the unit
is facing, in their 180% arc of sight.
 
-When electing to volley fire, do not roll to hit as normal.  Instead, you
must guess the range to the target.  If you guessed the correct distance, or
within a margin of error equal to the BS of the shooters (for instance, if
you guess 17" and the target is within 20", and you have BS3, you've made
it), then roll to hit for each arrow at a basic 4+, -1 if the unit is
skirmishing, -2 if a single target.  If any part of
the targeted unit is within the guessed range, you've still hit.  If you
failed the guess, the arrows all miss.

-Any unit on foot and armed with bows, longbows or crossbows may purchase flaming arrows for +1 point if armed with bows/longbows, +2 if armed with crossbows.  In addition to counting as flaming attacks, flaming arrows impose a -1 to any panic tests in any phase in which a unit suffers casualties from flaming arrows.  However, any unit who has purchased flaming arrows must remain stationary with their braziers; if they move for any reason, they lose any of the bonuses for flaming ammunition.

-Any guess weapon (such as a cannon or mortar), and any unit choosing to volley fire, may not fire at any enemy unit that is not in the LOS of at least one unit in the army.
 
-Any unit of troops subject to the rules for "skirmish" or "fast cavalry" may attempt to make a "fire and flee maneuver" when charged, as a substitute for their normal "flee" charge reaction.  This is exactly like a flee, except that the unit may fire any missile weapons they possess whilst doing so.  The modifier for stand and shoot applies here, and any shots (except for thrown weapons) fired by fast cavalry in this manner always count as long-ranged, for a total of -2 (further modifiers apply as well).  Skirmishers do not suffer the -1 for long range, as they're more coordinated in this maneuver.  Units with multi-shot weapons may only fire one shot when performing a fire and flee maneuver.  Since this is a variation of the "flee" charge reaction, fast cavalry who subsequently rally may move and shoot as normal.             

Chariots
 
These are by far the newest rules, they're VERY RUDIMENTARY.  What matters
is the basic concept, which is to change chariots from shock troops to what
I call "heavy harassment".  Note that chariot regiments (as found in Tomb
King armies), as well as the Black Coach, War alter, Snotling Pump Wagon,
and the Steam Tank count as "heavy chariots", and as such are still subject to the old rules for chariots.  Otherwise, the changes to chariots are as
follows.

 
-Chariots maintain their composite profile in the same way as now.  However,
characters mounted in chariots add +2 to their armour save when fighting
enemies US2 or lower, as well as against flying cavalry and other chariots.
 
-Chariots no longer do impact hits as normal when charging into combat. 
When charging, a chariot may choose to wheel the bulk of the chariot into
the enemy, which inflicts d3 impact hits at the basic strength of the
chariot, d3+1 if equipped with scythes.  However, this maneuver also inflicts d3 impact hits on the chariot itself, at the strength of the enemy. 
 
-Chariots gain the "hit and run" rule.  In addition, when fleeing as a
result of a hit and run, a chariot may choose to perform the aforementioned
wheel maneuver, even if it has done so this turn. This does not count as
being part of combat, as combat resolution has already been resolved.
 
-models firing missile weapons from chariots suffer no penalty to move and
shoot.  In addition, they may fire when charging into combat with no
penalty, instead gaining +1 to hit with this shooting, although this
shooting does not count towards combat resolution.  They may also fire with
no penalty on any turn they rally, as well as when fleeing from combat as a
result of a hit and run, although they are at -1 to hit in the latter case.
 
-If passing within 1" of an enemy model/unit, any model in the chariot (not
the beasts pulling it) may attempt to swipe at the enemy as they move by.   
These models may attack the enemy as if they were fighting normally, but the enemy cannot return these attacks, unless the enemy is a chariot, in which case use Initiative order to decide who strikes first.  Additionally, if the chariot is equipped with scythes, the chariot afflicts 1 impact hit at the strength of the chariot for each rank of the unit it passes by; if the unit has no ranks, this has no effect.  Note that there is no combat resolution as a result of this since it does not take place in the combat phase, and you can only perform this special attack when moving and in the movement phase.  However, if this attack kills 25% of the unit, a panic test is incurred.

                             Magic

-Random spell generation as a universal rule no longer exists.  Any wizard may choose their spells if using a single lore.  If a wizard (such as a slann mage priest) has and chooses the ability to acquire spells from multiple lores, he may only choose his first spell, and must randomly determine the spells from the other lores.

-Any wizard who is maintaining a Remains in Play spell may, after declaring he is maintaining it, attempt to cast spells in spite of that.  To do this, the wizard must equal or exceed the basic cost of the RIP spell, by rolling a number of dice, the maximum being his magic level (these are not power dice).  If he succeeds, he may cast spells while maintaining a single RIP spell; if failed the RIP spell ends as if he had elected to cease maintaining it.  If 2 or more 1's are rolled, the wizard has caused magic instability, and he is immediately affected as if a roll of a '7' on the miscast chart had occurred.

-Any number of wizards within 6" of each other may attempt to "chain-cast" a spell, which allows them to pool their personal PD towards a single spell attempt.  They may only do this if they all have the spell in question in each of their arsenals, and none of the wizards may exceed their normal casting limit (though all modifiers apply as normal).  If the spell has a set range, the target of the spell must be in range of each of the mages; if the spell has a set radius, choose one of the casting wizards as the starting point.  If the result of this is a miscast, each wizard is affected by the result (if one of the mages has an item that prevents or mitigates miscast effects, this does NOT protect the other mages).  If the spell is a RIP spell, all the wizards must maintain it together.  However, they may add their levels together for the purposes of casting while maintaining.  If 2 or more 1's are rolled when attempting this, all the wizards are affected by this result.  If any of the wizards flees or is killed, any spell cast or maintained by the group of wizards is ended immediately.

Wizards have the ability to use basic "battle spells" in the heat of combat which are too minor to require outside power, and are not noticed by opposing magic users.  Wizards may make use of a list of standardised combat spells.  A wizard attempting to use these abilities may not fight in the following close combat phase.  A wizard may make a single attempt to use one of the following abilities (there will be an even 6 eventually).  This is done by attempting to equal or surpass the casting roll using a single die, to which half his magic level (rounded up) is added.

4+ Blast: St 4 hit to enemy models in base to base.
5+ Binding:  Enemy is at -1 to hit the wizard.
6+. Shield: Wizard Enemy is at -1 to wound the wizard
7+ Minion; Wizard is moved out of combat and a basic statline (Ws2 St3 T3 etc) takes his place
8+ Destruction: Wizard causes D6 St 6 hits on the enemy. Remove models closest to the wizard.

Note:  None of these magic rules apply to wizards in the ogre kingdoms army list, whose magical rules and abilities are so unique to themselves that they make no use of these abilities, and it is doubted they are aware of them in the least.

So, thats about all I have right now.   Hope to hear from you, not just with
your opinions, but also hopefully with some suggestions  :)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 11:09:38 PM by Gondarion »
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2007, 06:06:46 PM »
On the changes:

We've got changes to pikes, new rules for scythes, frenzy with special formation, a new bonus for troops fighting with hand weapons (to replace HW+S), and an entirely new game mechanic called Precision Strike.

To top it all off, there is a new To Hit chart as well, which favors high WS a bit more.

As for other concerns, many of us are still very worried the new chariot rules don't do justice to the points cost of chariots, so we could really use more input and ideas on this. I did make a small change to the wheeling maneuver which should help the more expensive chariots a bit, but we need more I think.
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Offline cisse

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2007, 08:28:40 PM »
The new to hit chart isn't any better than the ordinary one I'd say. A 2+ to hit is just wrong, it opens the way for a lot of possible herohammer situations. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere above in the rules that you already gain +1 to hit if you have double the initiative of your opponent or something like that - again, this is easily abused with powerful characters.
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2007, 04:02:41 PM »
The new to hit chart isn't any better than the ordinary one I'd say. A 2+ to hit is just wrong, it opens the way for a lot of possible herohammer situations. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere above in the rules that you already gain +1 to hit if you have double the initiative of your opponent or something like that - again, this is easily abused with powerful characters.

It only makes sense for Archaon to hit a goblin on a 2+, and its not like it would change too much anyway.  You misread the rule regarding double initiative, you only get +1 to hit if you have that and are using a hand weapon/additional hand weapons/magical equivalent (sword of might, blades of loec, etc).

This would help some characters true, but it would not contribute to hero-hammer.  Why?  Because many characters, such as wood elf highborns and skaven/dark elf assassins, are arguably overpriced.  These rules would make characters like these more cost-effective by increasing the value of the high WS and I.  By contrast, characters such as Ancients and Saurus oldbloods would benefit less.
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2007, 11:07:51 PM »
Oh I forgot one thing, the change to shield wall.  I'll put that in the newest draft post, sorry about that guys.


Quote
Models in a unit in
the shield wall formation gain +2AS against missile fire from the front and sides at all times; this bonus never works against shooting directed at the rear of the unit. In combat, they gain +1 to their armour save for the first round of combat only, and only against enemies attacking the unit to the front.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 11:19:45 PM by Gondarion »
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Offline cisse

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2007, 11:18:04 PM »
Hmm, I don't know. Soe characters are overpriced, perhaps (assasins yes, WE highborns not really imho). Still, in most cases this is because there are more popular choices, for instance a non-BSB captain compared to a warrior priest in the empire list. In any case, hitting on a 2+ should be reserved for magic items and special abilities I think. A lot of characters would hit and wound on 2+ each.

For units I can see the new to hit chart working (except for some specific units, but those are exceptions, like HE swordmasters and WE wardancers who both don't need much of a boost in hand-to-hand anyway...).
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2007, 11:27:33 PM »
The only truly uber (non-special) characters I can think of who would really benefit from this are chaos and vampire lords, and they cost a bucket-load anyway.  Wardancers and swordmasters are plenty deadly to be sure, but they don't get much in the way of a combat bonus from this to hit chart; what they do benefit from is being hit on 5's by WS3 troops, and they're plenty vulnerable on defense, especially swordmasters.

The bonus for using hand weapons would allow some characters to hit on 2's in many situations, but I think anything that encourages the use of magic sword and such, as compared to the ubiquitous great weapon, is a good thing in my view.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=1
Amended Rules forum page
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewforum.php?f=3

Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2007, 11:32:35 PM »
The rule regarding 2 for 1 specials remains the same.  What this means is that you will not see any Dwarf or Goblin Bolt Throwers. "Throwing the baby out with the bath water."  O.K. boys! back to the picket line.

Sigmar on a sling, the stuff some people come up with. . . .