Topic: Empire through the years - the nerfs, the boosts, the good, the bad and the ugly

[Shadow_Zero]

This was something I wanted to do for a while, and since with 8th edition we're at the end of an era with Classichammer / Oldhammer it's even better to make up the balance and look back at the good old days (or bad ones) and how the Empire army (d)evolved, and changed through the years and editions, as well as the rules (and gameplay perhaps) in general.

I'm not sure how much this will be a general topic or a personal topic, let's see where it goes. In any case, all the numbers are 'general'. I've compiled an overview of all the stats and point costs for all Empire from 4th till 8th including most of Storm of Chaos and Annuals/Chronicles:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POX5mejpKDSb3a7aQqpNe5RdqldAEcG3J2Ck4P8fCAs/edit?usp=sharing

It's not 100% finished yet, but it has all the stats and points in any case. Any errors/suggestions/improvements/additions/questions please let me know.

Personally I started playing during 4th edition and somewhere in 5th edition I got in secondary school exams and my friends and I didn't have time anymore and after that spread all over the country for college/university. Miraculously I got back into it early 2010 because friends of mine started painting Nerf guns and boardgame miniatures and I joined the fun with my Empire (which I thought dozens of times of selling but never did, phew!). This created a chainball reaction in other friends starting WHFB (or rebuying their old army  ).

Lot's of more stuff I want to read into and brainstorm about, maybe even creating some houserules for my WH group. Especially cannons and Warrior Priests I would like to make a mix of the different editions (increase the fun, but not overpowering). A few notes I already made:

- Where were all the characters in the 6th edition army book?! I really don't get that (some were later released in White Dwarf/Annual though)
- And why was there no initial Steam Tank in 6th edition?!
- Next to the cannons getting more expensive in 8th also the Engineer got more expensive. I guess the price for measuring ability and an improved Helblaster? Misfire chart got nerfed though, with 1 or 2 (instead of just 1) exploding the warmachines.
- I really like the Witch Hunter addition in 8th! (fluffwise in any case, and the model)
- Sad to have seen Kislev and Halflings dropped (and ok, in a lesser way, Dwarves and Ogres).
- Why are Free Company more expensive than Spearman in 8th??
- Karl Franz had some nice specials in 6th (Storm of Chaos): take 1 Greatswords as Core, and 1 Knights as Inner Circle. There was an other character who had such a rule, but I can't find it back (but maybe it was something Ulric). This sort of rules I'd like to play around a bit with as well, since it sounds so fluffy   
- I miss the fun 'little' rules like Fusillade for Pistoliers and First Volley for Handguns.
- As probably everyone states, I think artillery and cavalry should get some sort of boost(s)). I always liked to field Handgunners, that was Empire! But with 8th edition shooting is just so bad! (pondering about the Pistoliers and Outriders as well, though I guess they still have tactical value at least).
- The fact Warhammer was nicknamed Herohammer, was due to 4th/5th edition having cheap characters with high(er) stats and access to cheap magic items? (eg. Elector Count @120 + Runefang @30)
- I do think (Empire) characters are way too expensive now. Perhaps in (fun) games I might suggest a % cuttage (but max 1 per unit). I just like the fluff of it all, but it's so sad we can field so little (I guess one advantage of Herohammer...). Of course there needs to be balance, though I mainly like to play a fun and colorful fantasy game (with friends), and am barely competitive.


So looking at the stats, the point costs, the rules, etc. of everything; if you would compile a 8.5 Empire list, what would you like to change? What changes/nerfs did you dislike the most? What changes/boosts did you think were overpowered? What do you miss? In which edition was Empire best and why? Anything else you want to say, just say it! 

(somewhat related to http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=50759.0, http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=50569.msg954504#msg954504, http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=50569.msg954891#msg954891, http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=50569.msg954970#msg954970)


EDIT:
Totally forgot to add! Where it says 5th edition, please read Ravening Hordes. For sorting sake I just used the 5 number 
Thanks for pointing that out Deuce.

[Shadow_Zero]

Maybe also fun to share some facts:

Our cheapest model ever was a Halfling at 3 points in Ravening Hordes (and 3.5 in 4th edition, increasing to 6 in 6th edition)

Most expensive models:
Emperor Dragon (4th) – 750
M6 WS8 BS0 S8   T8 W9 I6 A9 Ld9

Great Dragon (4th) – 600
M6 WS7 BS0 S7 T7 W8 I7 A8 Ld8

Valten (6th) – 560
M4 WS7 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld9

Supreme Patriarch Thyrus Gormann (6th) - 500
M4 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W3 I4 A2 Ld9

Kislev Tzarina Katarin (6th) – 495
M4 WS4 BS3 S4 T3 W3 I3 A1 Ld10

Supreme Patriarch Balthasar Gelt 6th (6th) – 450
M4 WS BS3 S3 T3 W4 I3 A1 Ld9

Highest Weapon Skill (7): Kurt, Valten

Highest Ballistic Skill (6): Kurt, Karl Franz, Magnous the Pious, Valmir von Raukov, General of the Empire (8th)

Highest Strength: humans do not exceed 5… (and with warmachines and beasts we can stretch it to 6)

Highest Toughness: 4th edition Steam Tank had 10! (as well as the 7th to 8th edition FAQ Stank if I recall correctly). Other than that, humans don’t surpass 4.

Highest Wounds: Gotta love our Stank: 10! 4th edition Karl Franz with 5 was a nice one as well. Now humans don’t get more than 3!

Highest Initiative: Karl Franz hits a 6 Initiative! As well as the Grand Master.

Highest Attacks: lol @ 4th Emperor Dragon with 9 attacks! 8th edition Imperial Dragon does nicely with 5 as well. Kurt, Karl, Magnous the Pious, Valten and Boris Ursus make it till 4.

Highest Leadership: Karl Franz, Magnous the Pious, the Steam Tank, Boris Ursus and Tzarina Katarin hit the 10! And of course the pre-8th edition Flagellants. Oh, and missed 4th Grand Theogonist Volkmar!

[Deuce]

This is an interesting resource.

I'm a little confused though as in a number of places you list "5th edition" units next to 4th ed counterparts, often with the designation "core/special/rare" etc. Unless my memory is playing tricks, the Empire got no army book during 5th edition and no general official upgrade: moreover the 5th edition rules still functioned on a character/regiment/monsters/allies basis rather than the lords/heroes/core/special/rare one which later became the norm.

A couple of units might have got individual updated rules published in White Dwarf or the like, possibly in line with a re-release (all the State Troops were re-released as was the Mortar, iirc), but I don't believe any of the rules changed. As such I'm a little puzzled about where that information is coming from.

I suspect the reason for the Steam Tank's not getting rules in the initial 6th edition ruleset was twofold:
1) The rules are rather complicated, and the Empire was to be marketed as one of the starter armies so needed to be accessible to beginners.
2) They had a big shiny new metal kit on the way and wanted to release the rules at the same time as that to raise interest and sales.

If we wanted to be generous we might also suggest that, since the Empire was one of the first releases for 6th edition and that was a very new edition, it was difficult to know how it would play, and a powerful figure like the Steam Tank would be even more difficult to balance at such an early stage in the game's development. Not that it was balanced anyway.

Another possible reason is that someone was appalled at what had been done to the Empire book - which was devoid of so much of the colour and special units that had made it fun and attractive in 4th/5th edition - and insisted on the steam tank being put back into the game officially, possibly writing up rules themselves, but was unable to square things before the book went to print.

Really it's anybody's guess.

[Talben21]

Empire characters are mostly good. The issue is that you have amazing cheaper choices (Warrior Priest, Arch-Lector and Captain) couples with some too bad and too expensive choices (Witch Hunter, Engy, General). Grandmaster is only worth it for the Runefang, other tricksters shard combo.

I think Empire is a very good army in 8th ed if you play it as a close combat army. The lack of shooting does feel very Unempire though.

[Gneisenau]

Great topic!

- Where were all the characters in the 6th edition army book?! I really don't get that (some were later released in White Dwarf/Annual though)

On holiday. The Empire is an expy of the HRE. The HRE was early Germany. Germans love to go on holidays, and to visit foreign countries.

- And why was there no initial Steam Tank in 6th edition?!

The Empire characters took them to go on holiday. See above. Germans, holidays, foreign countries.

- Next to the cannons getting more expensive in 8th also the Engineer got more expensive. I guess the price for measuring ability and an improved Helblaster?

Some insightful social commentary by the writer. Engineering is skilled work. Skilled workers are high on demand in contemporary societies. High demand increases the price. Earlier drafts of the armybook had the "Kislev immigrant engineer" as a hero choice, who had the exact same stats and abilities at half the price. The CIA intervened though.

- Sad to have seen Kislev and Halflings dropped (and ok, in a lesser way, Dwarves and Ogres).

It was necessary to avoid affirmative action. People were starting to complain about the the micro-aggression against dwarves, and about the macro-aggression against ogres. Questions were asked, e.g. whether a dwarf should still have M3 if he self-identifies as an ogre. And don't get me started on that #JeSuisBilbo campaign. You would have ended up with an armybook with mandatory unit selections ("Dwarves (1+)", "Halflings" (1+)", "Ogres (1+)"...).

- Why are Free Company more expensive than Spearman in 8th??

Because Spearman is the lamest superhero ever. Seriously, he's worse than Aquaman. He's so lame that even free company is more expensive.

- Karl Franz had some nice specials in 6th (Storm of Chaos): take 1 Greatswords as Core, and 1 Knights as Inner Circle. There was an other character who had such a rule, but I can't find it back (but maybe it was something Ulric). This sort of rules I'd like to play around a bit with as well, since it sounds so fluffy   

That was Ar-Ulric.

- I miss the fun 'little' rules like Fusillade for Pistoliers and First Volley for Handguns.

You should play AoS! It's full of fun 'little' rules. Wait, I got that mixed up. It's full of 'fun' little rules. Nevermind then.

- The fact Warhammer was nicknamed Herohammer, was due to 4th/5th edition having cheap characters with high(er) stats and access to cheap magic items? (eg. Elector Count @120 + Runefang @30)

Yes, the term "Herohammer" cleverly indicated the dominance of hero-level models, who ran around hammering the non-hero models. Though the Runefang worked differently back then. It did extra damage vs. undead, which I thought was kind of unfair against the living impaired. What kind of word is "Runefang" anyway? Was anybody aware of how dodgy that sounds? Did nobody think of the children?

- I do think (Empire) characters are way too expensive now. Perhaps in (fun) games I might suggest a % cuttage (but max 1 per unit).

Didn't you just complain about characters being too cheap in 4th and 5th?

I just like the fluff of it all, but it's so sad we can field so little 

It's called artificial shortage. By keeping the number of characters low, you appreciate them more, and learn to accept their intrinsic value. It's the same reason why theatre monologues are considered fine art, whereas parliamentary debates are not. Just imagine Hamlet's "To be or not to be" with five other guys on the stage, who pepper his musings with ejaculations of "Right on!" and "I'll say!" See? Doesn't work.

(I guess one advantage of Herohammer...).

Have you tried playing AoS? You might li...

Of course there needs to be balance

On second thought, maybe not.





Seriously though, great topic

[Shadow_Zero]

I'm a little confused though as in a number of places you list "5th edition" units next to 4th ed counterparts, often with the designation "core/special/rare" etc. Unless my memory is playing tricks, the Empire got no army book during 5th edition and no general official upgrade: moreover the 5th edition rules still functioned on a character/regiment/monsters/allies basis rather than the lords/heroes/core/special/rare one which later became the norm.

I updated the first post, 5th edition = Ravening Hordes (but using '5' is more practical in sorting the columns  ). I'll have to look it up again, but I think you're right about the core/special/rare part, so I'll need to update that.

[Gneisenau]

Core/Special/Rare was indeed a 6th edition invention, and a good one.

One thing that I missed in 6th edition was the War Wagon. That was a great and characterful model. I wish it would have come with equipment options, so that you could have customized the crew.

6th edition deleted much, that's true, but it was an enormous improvement in many ways. In particular, it introduced the new detachment rules, which added a competitive edge that the Empire had sorely lacked in 5th.

I liked the 4th edition book (very much), and there was little wrong with it, but my impression was that it could just not compete with the later 5th edition armies. There were some proper nasties around in those days.

[GamesPoet]

I'm not sure how much this will be a general topic or a personal topic, let's see where it goes. In any case, all the numbers are 'general'. I've compiled an overview of all the stats and point costs for all Empire from 4th till 8th including most of Storm of Chaos and Annuals/Chronicles:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POX5mejpKDSb3a7aQqpNe5RdqldAEcG3J2Ck4P8fCAs/edit?usp=sharing

I wasn't able to scroll down through it and could only see the top portion, but it looks interesting and thanks for making the effort!

Is it possible to obtain this via an excel spreadsheet when it is finished?

Personally I started playing during 4th edition and somewhere in 5th edition I got in secondary school exams and my friends and I didn't have time anymore and after that spread all over the country for college/university. Miraculously I got back into it early 2010 because friends of mine started painting Nerf guns and boardgame miniatures and I joined the fun with my Empire (which I thought dozens of times of selling but never did, phew!). This created a chainball reaction in other friends starting WHFB (or rebuying their old army  ).

Always a smooth move not to sell an Empire army.

Lot's of more stuff I want to read into and brainstorm about, maybe even creating some houserules for my WH group. Especially cannons and Warrior Priests I would like to make a mix of the different editions (increase the fun, but not overpowering). A few notes I already made:

- Where were all the characters in the 6th edition army book?! I really don't get that (some were later released in White Dwarf/Annual though)

I need to yank out my 6th edition rule book and reveiw it again.  In those days, they had a full sized paperback rule book in the box set.

- And why was there no initial Steam Tank in 6th edition?!

Was there one before 6th?

- Next to the cannons getting more expensive in 8th also the Engineer got more expensive. I guess the price for measuring ability and an improved Helblaster? Misfire chart got nerfed though, with 1 or 2 (instead of just 1) exploding the warmachines.

My guess is that maybe the folks in Nuln started cranking out inferior products?   With the exception of the Helblaster of course, that was a perfection by the Mad ... ooops I mean Master Engineer, Sorgfältig Gewissenhaft (and no I don't really know German, I had to look that up ).

- I really like the Witch Hunter addition in 8th! (fluffwise in any case, and the model)
- Sad to have seen Kislev and Halflings dropped (and ok, in a lesser way, Dwarves and Ogres).

Agreed and agreed! 

- Why are Free Company more expensive than Spearman in 8th??

Good question.

- Karl Franz had some nice specials in 6th (Storm of Chaos): take 1 Greatswords as Core, and 1 Knights as Inner Circle. There was an other character who had such a rule, but I can't find it back (but maybe it was something Ulric). This sort of rules I'd like to play around a bit with as well, since it sounds so fluffy   
- I miss the fun 'little' rules like Fusillade for Pistoliers and First Volley for Handguns.
- As probably everyone states, I think artillery and cavalry should get some sort of boost(s)). I always liked to field Handgunners, that was Empire! But with 8th edition shooting is just so bad! (pondering about the Pistoliers and Outriders as well, though I guess they still have tactical value at least).
- The fact Warhammer was nicknamed Herohammer, was due to 4th/5th edition having cheap characters with high(er) stats and access to cheap magic items? (eg. Elector Count @120 + Runefang @30)
- I do think (Empire) characters are way too expensive now. Perhaps in (fun) games I might suggest a % cuttage (but max 1 per unit). I just like the fluff of it all, but it's so sad we can field so little (I guess one advantage of Herohammer...). Of course there needs to be balance, though I mainly like to play a fun and colorful fantasy game (with friends), and am barely competitive.

I realize for some this is probably blasphemy, but ... no, I won't say it, the world will then come to and end, of course.

Thanks for setting up this thread, it's a good topic!

[Gneisenau]

Was there one before 6th?

That would have been this fellow:



Looks goofy, but was actually pretty powerful.

[GamesPoet]

Oh, I'm old enough to recall the model, yet old enough to forget when it was added to the rules, too.

[Shadow_Zero]

I'm not sure how much this will be a general topic or a personal topic, let's see where it goes. In any case, all the numbers are 'general'. I've compiled an overview of all the stats and point costs for all Empire from 4th till 8th including most of Storm of Chaos and Annuals/Chronicles:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POX5mejpKDSb3a7aQqpNe5RdqldAEcG3J2Ck4P8fCAs/edit?usp=sharing

I wasn't able to scroll down through it and could only see the top portion, but it looks interesting and thanks for making the effort!

Is it possible to obtain this via an excel spreadsheet when it is finished?

Hmmmz, I don't know why you are not able to scroll down. Anyone else having that problem?
I don't mind sharing it if it's finished, though you can already copy/paste it from Google Drive     (though a mentioning of the author would be appreciated; unless GW sues me then    )
And I'm curious now what blasphemy thoughts you had in mind   

And that's the 4th edition Steam Tank indeed.

@Gneisenau: you should volunteer for writing fluff for 8.5 edition 
And I like my Warhammer to be in medieval fantasy setting (for starters), so AoS doesn't fit the bill.
I never played the war wagon, but looking through my 4th edition book it just looks so cool and fun!
And I didn't say 4th edition characters were too cheap, though not necessariliy denying it, I'm just raising a debate. Characters went up like 2x from 4th to 6th. Was that justified?  Do we think they are properly 'priced' now? Or should the tendency of GW to drop them in points continue?

@Deuce: some valid points concerning the disappearance of the Steam Tank in 6th edition. I don't know if the later army books had such a big cut in their army list (and characters) as well, or that it truly were the earlier ones.

@Talben21: I don't know. I usually play my Vampire Counts friend and I'm not too keen to go into close combat there 

Just in general, having a dragon, griffon, tank, altar etc. all on the field is just cool as well as impressive to look at. That's pretty much how we played it as young teenagers during 4th edition (not knowing all the rules and all). Sure, it's not historical correct at all, but it's a game, we can make the rules! I'm thinking we could setup houserules for that, but I play so little, it's not worth it really. Actually, I haven't read into the End Times rules, I recall the point distribution was quite altered there. It kinda makes me brainstorm it would be nice to have different game selections. Like big block infantry based (as it is now, I guess), or herohammer, or multiple small units, or monster heavy etc. Of course I don't know if it would work out (without minor or major rules/points adjustments), but I like the idea of having multiple gameplay types to select from. Makes it's more versitile, and makes people use stuff they otherwise don't use. But yeah, having Karl Franz on an Emperor dragon, wizard on griffon, steam tank, Gelt on his pegasus, that just sounds like something I would love to see on a battle field  XD   I'm just afraid that a lot of army's will have way more scarier stuff to field in such scenario to chop up human flesh.

[Gneisenau]

And I didn't say 4th edition characters were too cheap, though not necessariliy denying it, I'm just raising a debate. Characters went up like 2x from 4th to 6th. Was that justified?  Do we think they are properly 'priced' now? Or should the tendency of GW to drop them in points continue?

For the avoidance of doubt: I was only joking.

Point costs are tricky; there's a lot of gut feeling involved. I think the 6th ed costs were more appropriate. At the end of the day though, the difference was not really important because you had the 1x Lord, 3x Hero formula. You would almost always take the lord anyway, so the difference came down to a handful of state troops.

If there had been no restriction on the number of characters, just on their total point cost, then the point cost of the models would have been more relevant. 

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Certainly, the total cost of 6th edition special characters was far too expensive. Not necessarily the point cost (although it was for the Empire), but the fact that they took several hero and/or lord slots.

[Shadow_Zero]

And I didn't say 4th edition characters were too cheap, though not necessariliy denying it, I'm just raising a debate. Characters went up like 2x from 4th to 6th. Was that justified?  Do we think they are properly 'priced' now? Or should the tendency of GW to drop them in points continue?

For the avoidance of doubt: I was only joking.

I know     
I just wanted to emphasize I'm curious to the thoughts, opinions and experience of others (veterans in particular).
True on the Lord/Hero slots. I think it was good they dropped that.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

To compare: the 6th edition Luthor Huss had the stats of a current GoTE (except the irrelevant BS) and special rules that probably made him equal or slightly better than the current version, but he cost 300 points and took a lord + hero slot.

[Deuce]

@Deuce: some valid points concerning the disappearance of the Steam Tank in 6th edition. I don't know if the later army books had such a big cut in their army list (and characters) as well, or that it truly were the earlier ones.

It varies quite widely and it's not always easy to tell, as 6th edition did some general reshuffling in most armies which saw some units renamed or otherwise changed about a little and some armies were carved up completely. Pretty much every army lost some units if nothing else because of the removal of generic monsters and swarms between editions.

On an army-by-army basis:

Bretonnia: Lost no units (though Squires were renamed). Gained Pegasus Knights, Grail Reliquae and Trebuchet.
Chaos Dwarfs: Never released by the Studio.
Dark Elves: Lost sword-armed Warrriors and the hybrid City Guard unit (spearmen and crossbowmen) though the spearmen and crossbowmen themselves were retained as single-weapon units.
Dogs of War: Never released as a standalone book. WD list published. Lost no units, gained an army's worth of non-RoR units.
Dwarfs: Lost no units. Gained the Engineer and Rangers.
Empire: Lost Outriders, Foot Reiksguard, Kislev Winged Lancers, Kislev Horse Archers, Dwarfs, Halflings, Ogres, Steam Tank, War Wagon and the Halfling Hot Pot. Three Knightly Orders merged into a single unit list entry with upgrade option. Gained Free Company, Templar Grand Master, Engineer, Warrior Priests.
High Elves: Lost sword-armed Warriors (may already have been removed in the 5th ed rerelease; I don't have that book).
Lizardmen: Lost Skink cavalry and some weapon options (bow-armed skinks). Gained chameleon skinks, Saurus Cavalry and the Carnosaur.
Orcs and Goblins: Lost Forest Goblins, Forest Goblin Spider Riders, Ogres, Snotling Swarms and orc-crewed static war machines. Big'Uns, Squig Hoppers and Netters become upgrade options rather than discrete list entries.
Skaven: Lost the Vermin Lord and Doomwheel. Gained the Master Moulder, Warlock Engineer, Ratling Gun, Warp-Lightning Cannon and Clan Eshin Night Runners. Assassins go from regiments to characters. Warpfire Throwers become a unit upgrade.
Undead were discontinued in their generic form but all units divided between Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings armies; none lost overall. A handful of units gained, mostly on the Tomb Kings side.
Vampire Counts: No units lost or gained.
Wood Elves: Lost Chariots and Glade Guard (name reused for former "Archers"). Scouts become an upgrade option rather than discrete unit. Gained the Eternal Guard, Great Stag, Branchwraith, Treeman Ancient and various character options (Waywatcher, Wardancer etc.), Wild Riders and Treekin.

Chaos is obviously tricky as those lists were broken up completely. Overall the armies gained a number of units and lost few if any (Centaurs, arguably, but Centigors were a like-for-like replacement)

From a casual glance it does seem that the first two armies out of the gate (Empire and O&G) were hardest-hit by unit losses and are probably the only armies to have "net" lost units, although they did get a couple of new toys (O&G effectively gained two new units out of losing Big'Uns, by 4thed standards; Empire detachment rules). It's also hard to assess the loss of a regiment vs the addition of a new character Later armies, like Wood Elves, seem to have done much better out of the deal but that's partly because those armies were extensively redesigned anyway and the long wait arguably hurt them more than the new units helped.

It's worth noting too that this only covers the first release from 6th edition. Later army books and upgrades would introduce new units, reinstate some of those lost (like the Steam Tank, and some of the O&G units), but I can't be bothered to work that out right now.

[Shadow_Zero]

Nice overview!
Didn't Undead have a Manticore and Mummies before?

[Deuce]

Nice overview!
Didn't Undead have a Manticore and Mummies before?

Almost every army had access to the Manticore (although only one or two had a manticore model, and Undead were indeed one): it was one of the generic monsters in the back of most of the books, along with the Chimera, Cockatrice, Gigantic Spider, Griffon, Hippogriff, Hydra, Giant Scorpion, seven types of swarm, the three "levels" of coloured dragons and Wyverns (later books at the end of 4th and during 5th trimmed the list a bit). Since that was something which affected almost every army with most of them losing access to bound monsters altogether, and it was a separate part of the list along with allies I didn't include it in the above.

Undead did have Mummies, but since the Tomb Kings still kind of do I thought it wasn't worth calling them out specifically, although I guess now they're mostly character models rather than regiments.

[InvaderZim]

If i remember  correctly there was a 5th edd empire book relessed on the sneaky with some slight changes like the evy metal symbols  updated

On a slightly  different  note are you including all the web temporary rules like kf had a once per game max stats ability  10 for every stat so with mgic items he had 12 attacks doing silly amounts of damage? (He did cost 700pts)

[CarolineWellwater]

(( Deuce,

The Dogs of War do have a Stand Alone book.  In fact, one copy of it is busy collecting dust on my shelf.  It came out late in 5th edition, before the release of 6th Edition and the Ravening Hordes supplement. It has most of the Regiments of Renown, except for Rugguld's Orcs, Anakonda's Amazons, Maleketh (sp?) Manflayers, Fighting Cocks, Dwarfy McDwarfPants and His Crazy Axe-Chucking Thing (the Goblin Hewer, I think is what it was called), Johan and His Priest Friend (the old Witch Hunter Team), and the Hobgobbla Khan character. 

Oddly, it had 30% Characters / 70% RoR ratio, instead of the normal 5th Edition percentages.  The reasoning, stated in the book, was that the Regiments of Renown all had their own, built-in characters.  The Dogs of War book also had the huge penalty of having access to only the most generic of magic items from the Main Rule Book.  For the most part, the 5th Edition Regiments of Renown were... YMMV to Poor.  There were only a couple of very good units, like the Marksmen of Miragliano and Daddallo's Flying Men, and the Alcatani Fellowship.  If you needed some Pikemen really bad... they were some Really Bad Pikemen.

6th Edition initial dropped all of the Regiments of Renoun, and replaced the entire army list with a list of You-Build-It Generic Mercenary Options in Ravening Hordes... though, that did make for Pistol-wielding duelists, which is pretty Boss.  I'm not 100% sure if the Regiments of Renown were re-added later into 6th, before being removed altogether... and, even if they were, I don't recall all of them being re-added in 6th... so I think you lost access to the Asarnil and Daddallo's Flying Men.))

[Deuce]

(( Deuce,

The Dogs of War do have a Stand Alone book.  In fact, one copy of it is busy collecting dust on my shelf.  It came out late in 5th edition, before the release of 6th Edition and the Ravening Hordes supplement. It has most of the Regiments of Renown, except for Rugguld's Orcs, Anakonda's Amazons, Maleketh (sp?) Manflayers, Fighting Cocks, Dwarfy McDwarfPants and His Crazy Axe-Chucking Thing (the Goblin Hewer, I think is what it was called), Johan and His Priest Friend (the old Witch Hunter Team), and the Hobgobbla Khan character. 

Oh, I know. To clarify: the above list is about the 5th-6th ed transition. Dogs of War had a 5th ed army book (which I also own!) but were never properly released in 6th: they basically kept a Ravening Hordes list forever, even though the list wasn't in Ravening Hordes. When I say that they never got a full release I mean in 6th edition - the armies listed are those out in 5th. Something funny happened there, though, since they retained mentions throughout many other 6th ed books as valid options and iirc even received a couple of new units. Maybe there was a change in management priorities.

What always bothered me slightly about the DoW army book - which in most respects I loved - was that the regiments section only had Regiments of Renown and no generic or "create-your-own" options. That's something which the 6th ed WD list handled much better. I wonder whether DoW would have been more successful from the start had they had that.

[CarolineWellwater]

((Hey Deuce,

At the risk of side-tracking the topic for a bit...

... I agree with you, with a caveat.  I'd have to say for the DoW, GW should have gone ALL Renown, or ALL Generic-Make-Your-Own.  By allowing or mix-and-match, you end up with the best of both worlds, and zero penalties.

RoR were awesome, because you could field Elves next to Dwarves next to Humans next to Hobgoblins next to Crazy War Machines... and, there-in, lies your weird balance as well.  In order to have your cake and eat it, you paid through the nose for everything.  Sure you can get your Fast Cavalry... as long as you're willing to take either Hobgoblins (which are not known for keeping to their contract) or Skinks on Cold Ones (which a stiff breeze could wound them, due to their Toughness 2.  Oh... I guess I forgot about Tuichi Huichi's Raiders also not being in the 5th ed DoW book.  Man, I love those guys, I have some 18 of them) or the Desert Dogs, which were hella expensive for no-gear humans on horseback, since it had a pair of character-level champions in it.  If a RoR was "Cheap", there was a reason for it.  About the only "Cheap" RoR were the Alcatani... which sucked.  But... they did have Roderigo Del Monte, with his critically important LD 8.  So... for them, it's all about the idea that "Everything Counts In Large Numbers."  Anyway...

Though... you also did have 30% to spend on your own Heroes / Lords.  So... it did have some generic options.  Generic-Character Options

Anyway, the Generic-DoW was pretty good as a Stand Alone, and you could still have a bit of color with a splash of Dwarf Crossbow here... human heavy pike there... and the Generic-Galloper Gun.   The big disadvantage to the Generic-DoW army was that your units were... generic.  They really didn't have any racial bonuses, non-main Rule Book Equipment Options, or Army Synergy bonuses.  So, yes, you could have your Humans with Heavy Armor and Pikes... but you didn't get any bonuses for them such as a Mixed Formation or Immune to Psychology.  You could have Dwarf Crossbows... but they weren't really Dwarf-Army-Book-Quarrelers.  You could have Heavy Cavalry, but it wasn't as heavy as the Venators.  You could have Norsemen, but they couldn't be lead by a brutal were-bear and have a built-in magic banner.  A Generic-DoW army was... all things considered, a salad with nothing really blending it together.  It... had all the parts, but... lacked that certain je ne sais quoi that gives armies their feel.

However, that same, salad-pile became broken when paired with the RoR.  Now, you can pick the best RoR to give your Army some much needed umph and synergy, and supplement it with the best Generics, so that you wouldn't have any real weakness.

Overall, I liked Regiments of Renown.  They were colorful enough and non-serious enough without being emo-dark-brooding-end-of-the-world-skulls-Skulls-Skullz-SKULLZ.  Though... I guess now I should say 'hammer-halo-Halo-lightning-Hammer-Lightning-HAMLIGHTING-HAMNING-THUNDA-HAM!' or something like that.  Anyway, I would have been fine with GW just coming up with some 15 or so RoR to use in your army, giving brief glimpses of across the old, non-blew-up GW globe.

As an aside, when I made a DoW Army-Book list, before seeing the products already on-line, I went the Generic-Route direction.  It wasn't as... colorful as RoR, but it ended up making it a lot more balanced. And, I was able to add in bit of a theme by using the Army-Wide rule "Unreliable".))

[Warlord]

Its odd.
I have never really heard combining DoW Generics and RoR together into an army as powerful and without weakness before.

They were expensive units, almost all. And the magic items still remained generic. A lot of the RoR were a mixed bag like you mentioned, with pluses and minuses to make them interesting and situatonal. They only have 1 monstrous flyer - Asarnil, and he wasn't fantastic compared to a bunch of others.

But having the generics with RoR allowed you to make a theme.

Take Al Muktars, and then take some heavy and light horse and you have a mounted Araby army.
Take Beorg's bearmen and a bunch of norse and you have a theme.
Take Golfag's and some more Ogres for a decent part of Golfag's host.

[GamesPoet]

DoW and RoR are fluffy.

[knightofthelance]

(( Deuce,

The Dogs of War do have a Stand Alone book.  In fact, one copy of it is busy collecting dust on my shelf.  It came out late in 5th edition, before the release of 6th Edition and the Ravening Hordes supplement. It has most of the Regiments of Renown, except for Rugguld's Orcs, Anakonda's Amazons, Maleketh (sp?) Manflayers, Fighting Cocks, Dwarfy McDwarfPants and His Crazy Axe-Chucking Thing (the Goblin Hewer, I think is what it was called), Johan and His Priest Friend (the old Witch Hunter Team), and the Hobgobbla Khan character. 

Oh, I know. To clarify: the above list is about the 5th-6th ed transition. Dogs of War had a 5th ed army book (which I also own!) but were never properly released in 6th: they basically kept a Ravening Hordes list forever, even though the list wasn't in Ravening Hordes. When I say that they never got a full release I mean in 6th edition - the armies listed are those out in 5th. Something funny happened there, though, since they retained mentions throughout many other 6th ed books as valid options and iirc even received a couple of new units. Maybe there was a change in management priorities.

What always bothered me slightly about the DoW army book - which in most respects I loved - was that the regiments section only had Regiments of Renown and no generic or "create-your-own" options. That's something which the 6th ed WD list handled much better. I wonder whether DoW would have been more successful from the start had they had that.

There were two reasons that DoW went away, and neither of them had anything to do them them being "successful" or not (which honestly I think they probably were). First 6th edition was an attempt to balance everything. They did a decent job of it, (but maybe went to far). To do that RoR had to go for the same reason the 25% of allies did. They could be used to cover weaknesses in your army. Secondly, they decided 3 human armies was to many (that's from a WD article), which kind of makes sense. Though really I'd rather have seen the brets return to the fold of the empire and the DoW stay as they would have allowed more interesting options moving forward.