Warhammer-Empire.com
Imperial Artisans ... The Painters, Crafters & Writers Guilds => The Brush and Palette => Topic started by: ZeroTwentythree on August 12, 2008, 12:39:09 PM
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Between all the great conversions and discussion on pikemen, and the availablility of pikemen in the Crisis In Marienburg army list for Marienburg, I've finally been motivated to get back to mine. I thought I'd share some comparison photos.
Apologies in advance for the black basecoat. When I eventually finish painting some of these, I'll post a revised photo.
The first two photos show a group of 9. The two outside files are Foundry landsknechts, the center file is made of three converted GW plastic figures using the old multi-piece 5th ed state troops, inspired by some of the other conversion posted in the B&P. For the pike, I've used 18 gauge (US) uncoated florist wire on most of them. This is approximately close to the size of the halberd shaft. The two first rank Foundry figures were assembled many years ago using a slightly thicker 20 gauge wire, which is closer to the plastic Empire spearmen spears from 6th ed.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/mburg/pk1.jpg)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/mburg/PK2.jpg)
The figures are very similar in appearance (all sculpted by the Perry brothers, so they should be.) The GW figures are just slightly bulkier, with not quite as crisp detail. Painted up and mixed into the same unit, I don't think you'd notice. I feel they'd mix well.
The next photo is of two of Mirliton's fantasy humans, which come from the old Grenadier Fantasy Warriors range sculpted by Mark Copplestone. Next to them is a row of Old Glory Flemish Pikemen from their Wars of the Roses range. They're similarly sized, though the Mirlirons look a bit skinnier. The Old Glory are not quite as well sculpted, but not bad, especially considering they're the cheapest of all the figures. To me, they look more like Hundred Years War era Low Countries/Flemish pike, rather than Wars of the Roses era.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/mburg/pk3.jpg)
The pikes on the Mirliton figures are once again 18 gauge wire. They were simple to glue into place with epoxy, since they balance perfectly in the figures hands even without adhesive. The Old Glory have smaller hands than all the other figures (probably more like real-life scale), so I used a smaller 20 gauge wire. As with most OG figures, the hands had to be drilled out, but the extra work pays off in that they will stay attached rather well.
The OG figures contain lead, but the Mirlitons seemed to be mostly lead. These are actually from the original Grenadier line, so they're quite old. I think they must be mostly lead, as I noticed the marks they left on the paper on which I was working. They actually made a decent (if frightening) writing instrument! Mmmm... tasty tasty lead. (Yes, I wrote that on paper with the figures.)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/mburg/lead.jpg)
The last photo shows all 4 figure lines mentioned above, plus a Front Rank armoured pikemen from their Wars of the Roses Range. The figures are crisp, well sculpted and clean-up and paint-up pretty easily. They look to be th largest of the figures, but still not abnormally so. I'm not sure they'd mix in the same unit with the Mirlitons, but I think they'd look OK in the same army/game.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/mburg/PK4.jpg)
Other figures I'd like to add to the review are the Old Glory landsknect pikemen, Old Glory Swiss pikemen, Foundy Medieval pikemen, and Foundry Swiss pikemen. I'm not currently interested in buying entire packs of figures just to review them, but if anyone has any single figures they'd like to donate to the cause, I'd be willing to accept. Also, I'm open to any other suggestions for manufacturers of 15th and early 16th century European pikemen figures.
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Looking Great, Especially the second one in the "Old Glory" Line, i like his helm. and the Front rank one, he looks Proud, why have you made the bases of wood though?
And i basically only know about the GW minis, as im pretty new to wargaming and the likes
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Those are some expensive pencils you got there. :::cheers:::
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Looking Great, Especially the second one in the "Old Glory" Line, i like his helm. and the Front rank one, he looks Proud, why have you made the bases of wood though?
And i basically only know about the GW minis, as im pretty new to wargaming and the likes
Well, most historicals (and older fantasy figures, including some of the ancient GW ones) have molded on bases instead of slots anyway. And I magnetize my bases. It's easier to glue a sheet of wood to magnet, then cut the bases, rather than gluing a bunch of GW bases to magnet then trim around each one. Gale Force 9 and others sell pre-made magnetic bases, but my way is a fraction of the cost (I can probably do a whole army for the cost of one unit with GF9 bases.)
Those are some expensive pencils you got there. :::cheers:::
I should do a "conversion"... a wooden dowel with an old lead figure glued to the end of it. :-D
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Do you really think that the detail level on foundry minis is worse?
I like the comparision pic.
This might be posted on http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=6724.0 too
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Do you really think that the detail level on foundry minis is worse?
I like the comparision pic.
This might be posted on http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=6724.0 too
Yeah, I was thinking about adding it to the comparison thread. You guys think it's easy enough to see the figures as they are or should I wait til I get some painted?
I meant that the GW figures aren't as crisp as the Foundry figures. Presumably because they're plastic vs. metal.
The Foundry & Front Rank are both the best in terms of sculpting and casting of the metal figures. If anything, I'd probably give Foundry a slight edge over FR based on marginally better casting quality. This may be different on the other side of the pond (not sure if the FR figures in the US are cast here or in the UK.)
Foundry is also the most expensive, at about $3, Mirliton & Front Rank are about $2, Old Glory are about $1. The old GW are OOP, but I've picked up my last few sets at about $1 per figure. (All prices +/- and in US$)
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Very interesting. I'd like to buy the Foundry pikemen, but they annoy me too much with their price rises and their crazy postage charges.
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Its not much of a parade of pikes more of a small gathering......................BRING ON THE PIKES..... :biggriin: ZAk
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Yeah, I was thinking about adding it to the comparison thread. You guys think it's easy enough to see the figures as they are or should I wait til I get some painted?
You might as well wait, if you haven't posted the pictures yet. Seeing them painted will be better for the comparison probably, than the figures primered in black.
O, and I can't wait to see these figures when they are painted, as Im a fan of your previous work.
And those Foundry ones are definetly up there with the 6th edition GW empire figures. I'm going to have to check them out and see about possibly getting some, as they look quite nice. Do you know if they come with other weapons, other than the pikes (ie, crossbows, handguns, swords and shields, etc...)?
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Its not much of a parade of pikes more of a small gathering......................BRING ON THE PIKES..... :biggriin: ZAk
By the time I'm finished with the figures I've already got, I will have 4 units of 30. 1 of the Front Rank, 2 of the Old Glory, and 1 of the Foundry.
But that's a ways off... I'm just about done with the Front Rank unit, the Foundry are primed and a few figures done. That's about it. :|
And those Foundry ones are definetly up there with the 6th edition GW empire figures. I'm going to have to check them out and see about possibly getting some, as they look quite nice. Do you know if they come with other weapons, other than the pikes (ie, crossbows, handguns, swords and shields, etc...)?
They have open hands and you have to supply the pikes or whatever. The old packs used to come with halberds, but now you have to buy those separate.
They also make landsknecht handgunners, command figures, greatswords and artillery & crew. I've posted the pic below on the comparisons thread before:
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/HGCOMP01.jpg)
A comment in thread also reminded me, Crusader also makes pikemen as part of their Wars of the Roses line. They're a bit skinny, but well sculpted. Probably closest to the Mirliton, but all the poses are standing with pike-upright (posed like the Front Rank guy in the first set of photos.)
http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/prod.php?prod=196&cat=5&sub=16&page=1
http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/prod.php?prod=197&cat=5&sub=16&page=1
http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/prod.php?prod=198&cat=5&sub=16&page=1
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Thanks for the comparison pictures 023. It is good to see that the Old Glory figures are roughly comparable to GW figures, considering how cheap they are. Looking forward to an OG landsknecht comparison.
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Just to chip in regarding the Foundry figs -
Lovely Perry sculpts but as has already been mentioned here prices are high ( £10 UK for 6-8 figs depending on the pack ) and postage and packing is the same price .
If you wanted to use them as halberdiers ( as I planned to ) dont buy the Foundry halberds - they are too small IMO - more suited to smaller 25mm ( still looking around for a company that makes big halberds ) .
Oh and the Greatswords pack only has 8 figs but only 2 different sculpts ( shame they didnt sculpt 1-2 other greatsword figs ) .
But as I said I like the range - my wallet might not but I do ! :smile2:
Hope I havent hijacked this thread - like others here I am a big fan of ZeroTwentythree's previous work and know that when painted up these figs will look awesome .
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Lovely Perry sculpts but as has already been mentioned here prices are high ( £10 UK for 6-8 figs depending on the pack ) and postage and packing is the same price .
That's €15. Nowadays we pay €17.5 for five GW metal models...
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Lovely Perry sculpts but as has already been mentioned here prices are high ( £10 UK for 6-8 figs depending on the pack ) and postage and packing is the same price .
That's €15. Nowadays we pay €17.5 for five GW metal models...
Sure, but historical miniatures are usually much cheaper than that. Foundry are the GW of historical miniatures (except that they never release any significant new ranges - all their best stuff is years old). The excessive postage alone annoys me enough that I don't bother with them.
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That's why I tried to give some comparisons, including GW plastics. My prices didn't include postage.
In the US, at least, there's distributors/retailers that might have cheaper postage options.
But I do confess, I would love to see Perry Miniatures or Front Rank do a range of landsknechts, as both are equal in quality to Foundry, but more affordable.
Also, while Old Glory don't quite stack up, I do think that their Landsknechts are one of their better ranges.
@ Musketpacker: I don't currently have any of the OG pike, but did previously post a handgunner comparison:
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/HGCOMP01.jpg)
Below is the largest figure (old 4th ed. GW Empire) directly next to an OG handgunner.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/HGCOMP02.jpg)
Also, some painted OG greatswords:
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/lds01b.jpg)
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MAN i do love the Puffy sleeves, it seems that GW is getting away from them. :eusa_wall:
:unsure:Zak
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I agree - I got into the Empire because they were a fantasy " landsknecht/ Holy Roman Empire " army - one of my favourite real world historical armies - which to me is big beards and big ( BIG ! ) puffy sleeves ! :biggriin:
Its not like its difficult to model this style in plastic - look at the previous edition platics .
Guess GW thought we would fall in love with their pyjama clad skull boys .
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But I do confess, I would love to see Perry Miniatures or Front Rank do a range of landsknechts, as both are equal in quality to Foundry, but more affordable.
Oh god yes! :icon_eek:
Also, while Old Glory don't quite stack up, I do think that their Landsknechts are one of their better ranges.
I know Old Glory are very cheap in the US, but they cost a great deal more in the UK. And while the greatswordsmen you posted look wonderful, I think that is mostly due to your painting. I don't think I could make them look much good.
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Wow....
Guess I am buying Old Glory from now on. Mind posting what products you ordered so I can order them this afternoon? You have shown me they are in no way inferior or the lesser of the GW miniatures.
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Guess I am buying Old Glory from now on. Mind posting what products you ordered so I can order them this afternoon? You have shown me they are in no way inferior or the lesser of the GW miniatures.
Whoa there... I never said they were in no way inferior. :wink: In fact, I think I admitted they don't quite stack up to the Foundry figures. If you buy them expecting GW quality, you will be a little disappointed. The sculpting isn't quite as clean, especially some of the faces, the features will be smaller and proportioned a little more like real humans (hands, weapons, etc. won't be oversized like GW & other fantasy figures,) and there will be a few prep issues, like making or buying pikes/spears (as it is with most of the other manufacturers) and in the case of OG, you have to drill the hands out. They're a soft, lead-based metal, which is actually easy to drill through, but make sure to clean up all the little bits of lead containing metal. (And don't eat the OG miniatures, tasty though they may seem.)
Overall, it's a quality vs. price issue, and whether or not you prefer having "official" GW figures.
There are some ranges that I wouldn't recommend, but like I said, I think the Landsknechts are one of their better ranges.
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/categories.asp?cat=184
The other pikemen (not landsknecht) I posted in my original post are the Flemish Pikemen from the Wars of the Roses range:
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=WOR%2D18
Another word of warning: their cavalry figures are going to look small compared to most other manufacturers, but especially compared to GW. Check out the photos I posted in the miniatures comparison sticky-thread in this forum. I do use some OG infantry, but my own preference is to stay away from their cavalry.
You might consider either picking up a single pack or somehow getting your hands on a couple figures to check them out first.
I don't want to sound like I am discouraging your from buying their figures. I just don't want any mistaking my comparison of quality between the various manufacturers. And with that said, I do personally buy/paint/use some Old Glory figures. :-D
Also, if you're in the US and plan on buying a bunch of them, they have some sort of "membership" thing that costs money, but you get a big discount for a year that makes back the price of membership as soon as you buy something like 5-6 bags of figures.
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You did a fantastic job with them, and i would have never known that those sculpts where hiding in the OG range unless you posted a photo of them. I dont mean to sound like a fanatic, but those pictures have sold me on the idea of OG. Fantastic work.
After working with the new state troops for a week (fustrating experience) the landsknecht units and spearmen look refreshing. Its more of a thankyou for reminding me of the alternative ranges out there. (and I hardly think the local shop will care.)
The fact that they are sold in units of 30 is a big plus too.
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=PIS%2D09
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I see that I'm not only one who is frustrated because GW changed the size of empire state troop from 20 to 10.
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I see that I'm not only one who is frustrated because GW changed the size of empire state troop from 20 to 10.
Unfortunately, that is just one of the minor negative changes GW made to the State Troopers.
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I just noticed the Cossack pikemen on the old glory website. Kislevite pikemen, anyone? :icon_biggrin:
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I keep running the historicals thing through my head, I really can think of no reason to stick with actual GW spearmen. I think their big problem with state troops is all the effort they went through to remove themselves from historicals, when the reason people liked them is because they where such nice sculpts with a basis in historicals.
Plus the historicals have this weedy John Blanche human thing going for them... there is a definate posability to make a nice unit that would look very Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
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I think the reason GW have moved away from the historical look is that it make it easy for Empire players to go elsewhere for models. Not so easy to do for the other races, though there are imitators out there.
I still think their 4th edition metals were the best, and I do like the puffy sleeves look more than the current range. And I wish they'd do torso and leg packs, so I could use up the buckets of bitz.
They probably haven't helped themselves by upping the prices so high that warhammer fans feel the need to look elsewhere
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I still think their 4th edition metals were the best,
Me too. But if the Perrys redid them now for their own range, they would look even better.
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I just noticed the Cossack pikemen on the old glory website. Kislevite pikemen, anyone? :icon_biggrin:
The Perry's also did some Polish figures long ago. They look great, but unfortunately there are not many figures. Also, many are armed with blackpowder weapons...
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/POLES/1/index.asp
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/POLES/2/index.asp
Also some later Cossacks...
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/COSSACK/1/index.asp
I think the reason GW have moved away from the historical look is that it make it easy for Empire players to go elsewhere for models.
Now see, the funny thing is, I'm actually thinking the opposite as well...
With them switching to plastics, paying $2 or less for a GW empire guy that looks just like a landsknecht vs. paying $3 for a similar Foundry guy, I'd be inclined to buy GW for use in historical games.
:ph34r:
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Hmmm. Just been flicking through the foundry site, to see what they got, and found something intersting.
The High Medieval range has a number of miniatures that look very, very, very similar to some of the really old citadel stuff I've got in my collection from when I started out a long, long, long time ago.
Compare these Foundry bits and pieces, particularly the Billmen
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/MED/7/index.asp (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/MED/7/index.asp)
With these old catalogue pages from SoL.
http://www.solegends.com/citjour86a/cj86ap28c26menatarms-01.htm (http://www.solegends.com/citjour86a/cj86ap28c26menatarms-01.htm)
http://www.solegends.com/citfly/citfly86/fly8600r-01.htm (http://www.solegends.com/citfly/citfly86/fly8600r-01.htm)
It must be noted that sculptors are the two and only Perry twins
If my camera was working I'd take some photos of my stuff to show you how much they are the same.
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Hmmm. Just been flicking through the foundry site, to see what they got, and found something intersting.
The High Medieval range has a number of miniatures that look very, very, very similar to some of the really old citadel stuff I've got in my collection from when I started out a long, long, long time ago.
They are the same. Foundry was founded by a GW guy, and many of the old citadel historical ranges were reused.
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I didn't know that they had been started by a GW guy, but I assumed they had probably bought the old Citadel moulds at some point.
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They are the same. Foundry was founded by a GW guy, and many of the old citadel historical ranges were reused.
Bryan Ansell. Citadel guy, IICR, before they were part of GW. Even after the split to Foundry, I think they still shared sculptors.
I don't know about now, but I remember buying Foundry figures that still said "Citadel" or "Games Workshop" on the bottom years ago.
A couple duplicate ranges that I remember off hand are that Citadel Brets became Foundry Medievals, Barons Wars, etc., Norse became Vikings, and Nippon became Samurai.
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Bryan Ansell. Citadel guy, IICR, before they were part of GW. Even after the split to Foundry, I think they still shared sculptors.
Yes, that sounds more accurate than what I said. :icon_smile:
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Bryan Ansell. Citadel guy, IICR, before they were part of GW. Even after the split to Foundry, I think they still shared sculptors.
I don't know about now, but I remember buying Foundry figures that still said "Citadel" or "Games Workshop" on the bottom years ago.
A couple duplicate ranges that I remember off hand are that Citadel Brets became Foundry Medievals, Barons Wars, etc., Norse became Vikings, and Nippon became Samurai.
Yeah, Bryan took over GW from Jackson and Livingston and started branding GW and moving it away from anything non GW (years ago GW released other games such as Cthullu and Paranoia under licence and also did games non related to the "GW universes" such as Judge Dredd and Dr Who, and the shops sold every gaming product under the sun)
He also re-released Citadels old solid base historical lines of War of the Roses and renaisance Samurai as well as the F4 Fighters (particularly Normans and Vikings), the 3rd Ed Brets (as mentioned) and Oriental Heroes with solid bases and metal shields.
It was funny because at one point you could buy the slotta figures with crappy plastic shields at 50p each from GW, or the same figure with a solid base and very nice metal shield for 32p from Foundry.
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:mellow: Hello there!
I too am a sucker for Pikes... but am at a loss on how to legally Field some units of them (besides using the Dogs of War list... i am a loyal Imperial... from Marrienburg... just kidding!) How do you Field your pikemen? Is it legal?
- Roderick
P.S. i also have a some Foundry pikemen... (and i, just like Kriegspiel, intended them to be Halbediers... and he was right, the foundry halberds are far to short...) Does anyone out there know where i can buy a pack of halberds... (like a sprue of them eh)
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Either DoW or call them very very long spears for Empire spearmen.
Also, play Warhammer Ancients using the Medieval suppliment (Age of Chivalry.) :wink: I've gotta keep working on converting the masses.
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El Cid & Fall of the West
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Hey 023 how does the Warhammer Ancients game supplement of Age of Chivalry compare to Warhammer Fantasy? I am desperately trying to convince my fellow gamers to switch to it rather than the fantasy. I am trying to build a Roman army of the 1st century AD but would be interested in other ages too, especially if I can use the 20,000 points Empire army I already have.
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El Cid & Fall of the West
Humbug, Shieldwall and Age of Arthur....!!!! :wink:
Actually, I also like FotW and I wouldn't mind El Cid either - cost and wife permitting...
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As far as WAB books go, I like Vlad the Impaler and Byzantium. But then, I am bored of English history. And I don't like army lists that consist of nothing but muddy blokes with spears. :icon_razz: