Topic: Appropriate real world inspiration for Ostermark project

[Alexis]

I'm starting a brand new Empire army and it's Ostermark. Would I be right in assuming that medieval Bohemia is a good point of reference for fluff and modelling inspiration?

Is there any link between the league of Ostermark and the Hussite league? I was kind of hoping Luthor Huss was from Ostermark but apparently he's a Wissenlander. Otherwise that would have been a good link what with Jan Hus.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Of course, there will not be a 1/1 correspondence between HRE and Empire provinces. However, the description of Ostermark as "a vast and open land, essentially flat, and dominated by fields and verdant pastures," does not fit Bohemia.  Kislev seems a mixture of Bohemia, Poland and Hungary - countries which were all ruled by the Jagiello dynasty around 1500.

If the name is anything to go by, Ostermark quite obviously is a contraction of Ostarrîchi and Ostmark, both referring to of the Margraviate of Austria, part of Bavaria in the early Middle Ages, which later was elevated to the Duchy of Austria. The former is the Old German name (still in use as Österreich), and the latter a 19th century translation of the Latin Marcha Orientalis.

I would rather assume the Hussite Campaigns to be comparable with the Chaos invasions.

[Alexis]

I had presumed Bohemia because of it's border with Kislev (Poland) and the references in Sigmar's Heirs about Ostermarkers speaking with a distinct accent that was certainly quite different from the mainstay of the Empire. There is also reference to some Ostermarkers having an 'eastern' appearance due to ungol heritage. I'm trying to make this specifically about Ostermark because I know there have been threads in the past about the HRE and the Empire comparisons, but I was of the belief Middenland was a nod to Bavaria?

It was something that was on my mind because I wanted to know if I should go with an eastern european swing on their story/conversions or just keep it overtly germanic.

Do Mordheim or Bechafen have any historical overlaps you can think of?

[S.O.F]

First of all for Ostermark this may be of use to you.

As to your questions Fidelis is correct in the statements about not really being linked to historical Kingdom of Bohemia at all. I think it was from a William King interview but in my mind Nuln is more linked to Prague than anything in sparsely populated Ostermark. Early Austria is appropriate as Fidelis also points out or one could even look at High Medieval Brandenburg or Pomerania.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Do Mordheim or Bechafen have any historical overlaps you can think of?

Not really. I cannot really linkt the description of Bechafen with any specific HRE city, and, regarding Mordheim, there were no towns in the HRE or even Europe destroyed or severly damaged by comets or meteorites in the relevant era. Some towns were hit, like Cremona in 1511, but damage was very limited.

There may have been a more major impact in France, as described by Gregory of Tours (Historia Francorum v,33), but that was in 580:

Villages around Bordeaux were burned by a fire sent from heaven: it took so swift a hold that homesteads and threshing floors with the grain still  spread out on them were reduced to ashes.  There was no other apparent cause of this fire, so it must have come from God.

The city of Orleans blazed with a great conflagration.  Even the richer citizens lost their all, and if anyone managed to salvage anything from the
flames it was immediately snatched away by the thieves who crowded around.

[Victor]

The Empire is the result of putting the HRE into a blender and adding some Fantasy spices to the mix. So it's not easy or possible to tell which Empire province would represent which historical count(r)y/duchy/kingdom. As Fidelis pointed out, based on the name and it's location, Ostermark would be Austria (except most of Austria is not flat at all, unlike Ostermark apparently). On the other hand, I also feel like Reikland represents Austria under the Habsburg regency (during the 17th-19th century) with Altdorf being inspired by Vienna (even though the name and location of Reikland would suggest it being Rheinland). Regarding the eastern European flair: that would be Ostland in my opinion, if the old model (and fist name) of Elector Count Valmir von Raukov is anything to go by.

The bottom line is, just do what you feel is right and what you like - the only boundaries are your imagination.


PS.: Luthor Huss = Martin Luther + Jan Huss ... another result of the GW blender, as you have noticed.

[Alexis]

Cheers, the three of you make sense of course. Forgive my ignorance here, but was Austria an impoverished province in this period? I'm probably being way too literal and trying to fit the fantasy provinces into historical states.

Sigmar's Heirs does strongly hint at some sort of slavic roots though but it is the only source I have seen which does so.

S.O.F - thanks for the link, I've actually read it already and much of your other collection!

Fidelis - That's really interesting about actual comets hitting cities. I suppose Mordheim could be likened to Sodom.

[Gneisenau]

Vast, open, flat, impoverished - a bit like Pomerania and its neighbors. That's probably the closest approximation you'll get.

Do Mordheim or Bechafen have any historical overlaps you can think of?

Frankfurt. Hur, hur.

("Mordheim" literally means "murder home" in German, and Frankfurt is usually at the top of the crime statistic.)

I suppose Mordheim could be likened to Sodom.

Which is also a bit like Frankfurt. I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Victor]

Cheers, the three of you make sense of course. Forgive my ignorance here, but was Austria an impoverished province in this period? I'm probably being way too literal and trying to fit the fantasy provinces into historical states.

No it wasn't. During the time of Emperor Maximilian I (House of Habsburg), around the year 1500, Austria had a decent economy overall. Ofcourse there were regions that were worse off than others, but nothing that I would call impoverished by standards of the time. Vienna didn't have the same status within the Holy Roman Empire that it had in later centuries, but it was a rather wealthy city non the less.

[Victor]

Something unrelated, but I found this painting while looking for a picture of Vienna around 1500 and wanted to share it:


(Siege of Vienna 1529)

The knight on the left looks fantastic. I also love the horse barding.   

[S.O.F]

On the other hand, I also feel like Reikland represents Austria under the Habsburg regency (during the 17th-19th century) with Altdorf being inspired by Vienna (even though the name and location of Reikland would suggest it being Rheinland). Regarding the eastern European flair: that would be Ostland in my opinion, if the old model (and fist name) of Elector Count Valmir von Raukov is anything to go by.

Though off the main topic, to a degree yes and it might be a more thematically fitting to the Empire setting but I think, since WHFRP 2 especially, the Reikland has been more and more cast in the light of the Kingdom of Prussia. Less fitting really but has generally been the way of the later fluff, less HRE more Imperial Germany really. I mean the coat of arms for the Reikland is basically the exact copy of that of Prussia.

[Victor]

I'm not familiar with the WHFRP fluff, but you have a point with the flag and the military. If Reikland was like Prussia, then that would certainly explain why all other provinces don't seem to have the highest opinion about Reiklanders (Saupreußen ). But talking about WHFRP: wasn't the name of Karl Franz' House actually "Hasburg" or something similar creative? The rivalry between Reikland and Middenheim could have been inspired by the rivalry between Austria and Prussia. During the time of the Napoleonic wars, white was a very dominant colour for uniforms in the Austrian army, which is another possible link to Reikland. But who knows. The GW blender did a good enough job. They mixed everything.

On a side note:
The story behind Carroburg's (Reikland) choice of colour has always reminded me of the legend of how the Austrian flag came into existence:

"According to legend, the flag was already invented by Duke Leopold V of Austria as a consequence of his fighting during the Siege of Acre. After a fierce battle, his white surcoat was completely drenched in blood. When he removed his belt, the cloth underneath was untouched by it, revealing the combination of red-white-red. So taken was he by this singular sight that he adopted the colors and scheme as his banner."

Thomas Hylland Eriksen and Richard Jenkins (editors) 2007, Flag, Nation and Symbolism in Europe and America, Routledge

[S.O.F]

I'm not familiar with the WHFRP fluff, but you have a point with the flag and the military. If Reikland was like Prussia, then that would certainly explain why all other provinces don't seem to have the highest opinion about Reiklanders (Saupreußen ). But talking about WHFRP: wasn't the name of Karl Franz' House actually "Hasburg" or something similar creative? The rivalry between Reikland and Middenheim could have been inspired by the rivalry between Austria and Prussia. During the time of the Napoleonic wars, white was a very dominant colour for uniforms in the Austrian army, which is another possible link to Reikland. But who knows. The GW blender did a good enough job. They mixed everything.

The current name for the ruling house of the Reikland is Holswig-Schliestien, which is a blender version of Schleswig-Holstein. I've always taken it as the homage to the first step to Imperial Germany under Prussian leadership.

[Alexis]

What would you think of Burgundy and cream as the state colour scheme? (I hate painting white long term). From what fluff I can gather the white or yellow differs as much as the shade of purple depending on dye availability.

Interestingly, I read the section on Ostermark in the Mordheim 'Empire in Flames' expansion which states Bechafen is a city renowned for it's armouries. There are so many wierd crossovers in the fluff that it's irritating. One minute you read it's a poor place with mostly leather armour, the next moment it's capital is famed for armouries.



I found the quotes that originally spurred me to make this thread. From Sigmar's Heirs:

"Ostermarkers tend to be thickset, and their eyes often reveal an Eastern heritage brought by the Ungols long ago. Their men are given to wearing long, thick mustaches rather than beards, and a high peaked fur hat replaces the more fashionable floppy headgear found elsewhere in the Empire." (P.70)

"Like the folk of Ostland, Ostermarkers have Kislevite tones to their speech. They speak Reikspiel with a distinct accent, the vowels heavily rounded and "th" sounds rendered almost as "d"..." (p.70)

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I mean the coat of arms for the Reikland is basically the exact copy of that of Prussia.

That is because, in 1229, Emperor Frederik II granted the Teutonic Knights the right to use the black Eagle of the Holy Roman Empire.

Again, one should not look for a 1/1 correspondence with actual history. Perhaps Reikland is the merger of both Austrian and Prussian elements. There can be little doubt that Karl Franz is modelled on Charles V (of Habsburg), with Franz perhaps referring to his rival Francois I of France.

@ Alexis: as I said before, Kislev is referring to the Jagiellonian Empire, with elements of the whole Slaw cultural sphere. In various eastern parts of the HRE (from Pommern in the north to Krain=Slovenia in the south), there was still a Slaw element among the population, which is probably reflected in the quotes you give.

[Alexis]

@ Alexis: as I said before, Kislev is referring to the Jagiellonian Empire, with elements of the whole Slaw cultural sphere. In various eastern parts of the HRE (from Pommern in the north to Krain=Slovenia in the south), there was still a Slaw element among the population, which is probably reflected in the quotes you give.

Actually, if you replace the Griffon with a Manticore, the heraldry of Pomerania is relatively similar to Ostermark.