Author Topic: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins (Read 28203 times)

Parka · « **on:** March 22, 2009, 09:19:35 AM »

Ok so Crystal Ball reveals Dark Elf assassins along with all other hidden objects ect. So my question is the assassin model put in the front rank as the DE book describes for revealing them. Seems to me that he would be as he is revealed, but never using Crystal Ball before I'd like to know how other people play it.

cheers

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2009, 09:27:41 AM »

It doesn't state to put the model out. It just requires them to tell you that yes, the assassin IS lurking in there.

Parka · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2009, 09:56:14 AM »

Without being a rules lawyer it sez any hidden things are revealed, and if an assassin is revealed (DE book) he is placed in the front rank. As far as I see you can't unreveal assassins.

So the way I read it is the Crystal Ball forces the DE player to reveal all assassins within 24" and as far as I see you can't unreveal assassins once they have been revealed.

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2009, 01:10:43 PM »

Parka thats taking a it a little far. I mean a simply word change and you would have assassins being "activated" rather then revealed and then get around it.

You tell your opponent that theirs an assassin in the unit but he doesn't have to bring it out into play.

Parka · « **Reply #4 on:** March 22, 2009, 01:33:58 PM »

Enemy must reveal at any time. So forces the dark elf player to reveal his assassins within 24" once the dark elf player does so he has to place the model.

Fluff wise the wizard should be able to then target the assassin as he can see him

RAW there isn't any ambiguity.

Sorry I don't see it as too far at all after all that's what it sez. I'm not adding any hidden context.

If you want to get all rulesy you do it in the beginning of the DE players turn.

"So you are declaring/telling me that unit has an assassin?" "Well of course I am I have to don't I?" "Yes"
puts assassin in front rank as the assassin rule state.

Unless someone can come up with a better argument I'll be happy to take it onboard, but as it is I think I'm correct. As for changing words around I'm sure we all know that could drastically change every item in the game, and isn't for players to do.

ZehKaiser · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2009, 01:58:35 PM »

This have never occured to me before. I think by RAW you may have an arguement. I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to check the DE book again. However, that said, I really think it is against RAI and that is how I usually play, so in this case I'd be hesitant to do it unless provoked, say the DE player pulled that cheesy assassin/scout 1st turn charge manouver on me.... And that is assuming it is legal, again I have to do some checking.

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:05:15 PM »

Yea Ineed to wait and get my books in front of me.

Parka · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:41:05 PM »

Quote from: ZehKaiser on March 22, 2009, 01:58:35 PM

However, that said, I really think it is against RAI and that is how I usually play.

Me to. I hate loophole lawyering. Someone said in the most broken item thread that they thought the Crystal Ball was broken. Which I thought was a bit much as you can normally take a good guess what items people have especially in tourneys when word of mouth normally tells you anyway.

So I took a look at it again and saw this. I don't think it's that uberhard or anything like sirens song that forces you to flee or charge, but it does seem to force assassins to be placed.

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:44:05 PM »

Well tbh It would be annoying but not game breaking.

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:50:18 PM »

Back from work.

"always reveal all the "secrets"" nothing there to indicate putting down the assassin. Implies revealing knowledge of it being there.

"the presense of disguised, hidden or otherwise 'invisible' models and everything else that the player is not normally obliged to disclose to his opponent."

Nothing to actually place the model down, just to tell them it is there.

Anyone remember the Talos? With the rule "Skimmer", which wasn't a Skimmer but had the rule Skimmer but didn't follow the BRB rules for a Skimmer?

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:53:16 PM »

hehehe

I'm talking to you on steam right now- we should all create a W-E friends group (and *shudders* FB group)

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:55:53 PM »

Parka · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:31:19 PM »

"always reveal all the "secrets"" nothing there to indicate putting down the assassin. Implies revealing knowledge of it being there.

It doesn't "imply" it states clearly Everything must be revealed.

"the presense of disguised, hidden or otherwise 'invisible' models and everything else that the player is not normally obliged to disclose to his opponent." indicates assassin, a revealed assassin is placed in the front rank as the DE rule book states.

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:33:13 PM »

"the presense of"

Also, you ignored my little thing about Skimmers.

Personally though, this is mostly opinion/rules with me.

We need queek!

Parka · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:40:40 PM »

A clear set off rules would be better

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:42:57 PM »

Shadowlord! Get him!

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:45:02 PM »

Quote from: Parka on March 22, 2009, 03:40:40 PM

A clear set off rules would be better

Play another game...ANY other game.

Parka · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:57:50 PM »

Well apart from 40k, Necromunder hell anything GW have written

.

Nicholas Bies · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:59:10 PM »

Mordhiem was always fun and BFG is great.

Parka · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2009, 04:14:53 PM »

I've found all GW games to be fun, just need a group of like minded players to set the ambiguous rules. As long as everyone plays my the same rules it's all good.

Never played Mordhiem or BFG. Mordhiem looked great I just never knew anyone who played. Necromunder was great just people would argue for ages over the gaps and getting into stalemates happened a bit too often.

I never really liked the models in BFG, so never played.

Shadowlord · « **Reply #20 on:** March 22, 2009, 05:15:48 PM »

Quote from: Parka on March 22, 2009, 03:40:40 PM

A clear set off rules would be better

Play Checkers and go back to Warseer/TWF!

Your lack of fanboism is disturbing.

Quote from: MrDwhitey on March 22, 2009, 03:42:57 PM

Shadowlord! Get him!

I am checking the web for his address but damn, Parka seems to be hard to find...

Mogsam · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2009, 05:20:38 PM »

So your arguement is that a Wizard with a Crystal Ball goes. "Oh my, Jeppers! Theres a nasty little Assassin over in that unit. Boys boys be careful!" Which obviously causes the Assassin to immediatly be aware that he has been foiled, throw off his cloak and jump into the front rank because they can obviously tell which one he is.

Think about it logically. Don't be silly. Just because you know theres a terrorist in Iraq doesn't mean they are going to wave a bomb around shouting "Cooee!!".

Mogsam.

Parka · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2009, 06:08:22 PM »

Quote from: Mogsam on March 22, 2009, 05:20:38 PM

So your arguement is that a Wizard with a Crystal Ball goes. "Oh my, Jeppers! Theres a nasty little Assassin over in that unit. Boys boys be careful!" Which obviously causes the Assassin to immediatly be aware that he has been foiled, throw off his cloak and jump into the front rank because they can obviously tell which one he is.

It's pretty clear you never bothered reading my argument, and what you said isn't worth the 0and1s it's written in.

As I've said come up with an argument and I'll gladly listen.

@ Shadowlord warseer gives me a headache and as to my lack of fanboism

.

McKnight · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2009, 06:18:43 PM »

This would actually make the crystal ball worth bringing!

Looking forward to your final result of this debate

ZehKaiser · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2009, 06:30:31 PM »

Quote from: McKnight on March 22, 2009, 06:18:43 PM

This would actually make the crystal ball worth bringing!

Looking forward to your final result of this debate

The crystal ball is ALWAYS worth taking these days. Unless of course its open list...

However, if you would use this trick to force the assassin out just because ppl come to that consensus then you prolly wouldn't mind using the crystal ball to measure distances. It's perfectly leagal and you can do it. Put him with a guess weapon. The ball says you can use it at literally "any time" as opposed to the begging of a phase or turn or something. That means that you can "search for secrets" right before the cannon the crystal ball is with fires. Make sure you measure though so you aren't cheating your opponent by asking for units that are out of range...

You can even ask during a specific unit's move. For example, a unit of shades starts its move outside of the 24" bubble, they move their 10" and end their move outside of the 24" bubble. BUT during the move they barely pass within the 24" bubble, you can halt their move, and ask what is in the unit. Turns out there's an assassin there! Hey, maybe you'll even get to force him to be revealed!

This is all against the spirit of the game of course, but it is completely legal. And "revealing" the assassin with the ball is against the spirit also, but maybe it will be legal. What I'm saying is that if you like the idea of forcing an assassin out with RAW, you'll love the auto-measure anything within 24" application of the GPS satalite...erm I mean Crystal Ball...

News:

Author Topic: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins (Read 28203 times)