Topic: needing a horde theory lesson - Spears vs halberd

[Botor]

So, I think I dont really get what are you talking about. The bus formation is a formation. You can change formations that is point of being able to change the frontage during the game. Your bus does not sit anywhere, your halberd horde manouvers through the battlefield and when its appropriate you change its formation to bus. You do not gain anything by recieveing a combo charge with 10 wide frontage just because mathammer shows you that you will kill 3 more. Deffensively bus denies atacks against your unit offensively bus denies steadfast. Insisting on horde formation in all situations is so evidently dumb, that I must assume that you are talking about something else: running the unit in bus all the time. And of course that is equally dumb. But people, you can and eventually should change formation even during close combat.

[rothgar13]

Personally, I'd just endeavor to get my Halberds in a situation where they would never have to leave Horde formation in the first place. If that's your only beefy unit, it's not hard to do.

[Botor]

Personally, I'd just endeavor to get my Halberds in a situation where they would never have to leave Horde formation in the first place. If that's your only beefy unit, it's not hard to do.

Even if you run only 1 horde unit (I regulary ran 3, with the new book I still run 2) this is cannot be granted. You roll badly on a dawn attack scenario and your master plan of runing the horde against apropriate target is ruined. Charge of monstrous infantry especially horde of monstrous infantry you dont want to recieve ever in horde formation. But also offensive use of a bus formation cannot be underestimated. When assisting an IC kninght unit a bus is far more effective than a horde because it breaks steadfast on charge and the knights will run down the fleeing enemy.

But actually I am surprised that I have to argue about this, for me its the abc of 8th edition warhammer, maybe I play this game differently.

[Forgotten Beast]

Hi Botor,

I'm definitely not insisting on horde formation in all cases, or denying that there are any situations where the bus is superior.  I'm just saying that, in my experience, these situations are rare.  The one you bring up, where a horde is combo charged, I think is a good example of the bus being superior.  And it goes without mention you have to leave horde formation if you need to fit through gaps, or you have a big army deploying in a battle for the pass.

Charging monstrous infantry along with cavalry support as you mention is an interesting example.  In this case I don't see the advantage of the bus so much, you'll break the monstrous infantry steadfast with a horde just as easily (and be much more likely to win combat), as they're seldom more than 3 ranks.  Now in receiving a charge from monstrous infantry, being in a bus could well be better if the monsters are six wide.

Another case to consider is monstrous cavalry.  4 Mournfang are going to do just as much damage to a bus as a horde, we're going to be steadfast nearly as long, and in a horde we'll at least grind them down some.

[rothgar13]

I wouldn't consider us to be at odds - my statement implied that you were correct, though I would endeavor to avoid the situations where the Horde would be at a disadvantage, because it weakens the Halberds' combat potential.

[Botor]

A monstrous infantry charge you mention is an interesting example.  In this case I don't see the advantage of the bus so much, you'll break steadfast with a horde just as easily (and be much more likely to win combat), as they're seldom more than 3 ranks.

No, in this case I thought of a defensive use of the horde, you dont have the slightest chance to break a horde of monstrous infantry with halberd horde, ever. In fact if you recive a charge of 18 trolls or ogres in horde formation they will break you in one turn. Bus wont be much better either, but will have a chance to counter charge in next turn.

I wouldn't consider us to be at odds - my statement implied that you were correct, though I would endeavor to avoid the situations where the Horde would be at a disadvantage, because it weakens the Halberds' combat potential.

That is quite sure, I just say we cant always be on the winning side of a close combat and sometimes have to sacrifice a horde to win the game.

[Forgotten Beast]

I overall agree with you Botor.  I meant to say that when charging the monstrous infantry along with cavalry, I'd rather be in horde.  You're absolutely right that if the ironguts deathstar is charging my halberds alone, I'd rather be in a bus, although there is a good chance I'm doomed in either case.

I also agree that the halberdier hordes really have no chance of beating the monstrous infantry hordes outside of magic.  But with magic it certainly seems possible.  And even if you don't get any magic off, you have a chance of grinding them down some with the horde.

[middenheimer]

Botor's got it, think about it people and deploy/change formation as required.

The comparisons do make for insightful reading and good tactical insights, bit the mathhammer here assumes units arrive in CC untouched, and how often does this happen that you can depend on it.

There's no reason you can't horde a unit of 35 + priest, just combat reform when you get smacked.  Think of it from your opponents point of view, hmmmm, horde or bus? which will I reduce first? the answer is almost always the horde

there is however an appreciable difference in the 35 man bus compared to a 50+ horde points wise, i'd rather take an extra unit than rely upon one or two large shoot/magic me targets.

Middenheimer

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Or putting it another way: 40 S7 attack are better than 30 S7 attacks. But 40 attack has some prequisits. Need another explication? Human race is the only one what needs to tell the obvious after all.

Mindrazor + Spears is always better, no provisions, no when's and if's. You either have more attacks and more bodies or just more bodies or you've spent less points.

Your second objection is obvious too. Only it is just part of the truth. As we all know there are fights that cannot be won by either of them. Its then only the bodies that count. It aplies to your mocking of the bus formation also, by the way. Bus is a must in impossible situations, and there are plenty of them.

You confuse mocking with objective facts. I explicitly stated that a bus is useful when you're going to lose regardless so this isn't really an issue. Spears are better in pinning those particular heavy units but not better at pinning in a vacuum as you stated. That's not an obvious omission, that's misleading, so we need some further explanation.

So, I think I dont really get what are you talking about.
...
Insisting on horde formation in all situations is so evidently dumb, that I must assume that you are talking about something else

It's quite evident that you don't get it, Botor, and forgive me my openness but it seems just as evident that you are not even trying very hard. Nobody mentioned to use a bus "all the time". In fact, and once more, I explicitly mentioned when a bus is useful. It's there in black and white. What in the world can be so difficult to comprehend?

Many players overlook the drawbacks of a bus and justify its use for all the wrong reasons, eg. reducing attacks. Being able to change formation during a game doesn't even come into play here. 

[Lord Solar Plexus]

the mathhammer here assumes units arrive in CC untouched, and how often does this happen that you can depend on it.

Well, what does that matter? I don't see any reason why we should assume more casualties on the way in for either Halberdiers or Spearmen, so it's legitimate to cancel out anything that effects them to the same extent. Of course you might arrive with less Halberdiers than Spearmen against heavy fire or magic but we know that the Spearmen need the extra bodies in combat, so they will hardly perform much better when we assume losses.

There's no reason you can't horde a unit of 35 + priest, just combat reform when you get smacked. 

I really ask myself why I am debating this at all when everything I mention at the start is going to be ignored either way. 

[Botor]

Or putting it another way: 40 S7 attack are better than 30 S7 attacks. But 40 attack has some prequisits. Need another explication? Human race is the only one what needs to tell the obvious after all.

Mindrazor + Spears is always better, no provisions, no when's and if's. You either have more attacks and more bodies or just more bodies or you've spent less points.

Mindrazor is initially in the litle mind of your shadow wizard model, or in your rulebook, or in some possible world other than this actual one. The wizard have to utter some mystic words, you have to drop dices, your opponent have to miss his or her dispell, the potentiality have to became actuality. That is an IF.

Your unit of spearmen only attack 40 times when they are charged or from second round of battle. To have 40 attacks with mindrazor you either have to buff them in your turn and wait for attack or buff them in the second turn provided that you still have 4 ranks in that turn. Not to mention that in the 2nd turn you wont have hatered. Here is your WHEN.

Mindrazor+spear is better IF it is actually happens and is not only in your army list WHEN the spears are in the right moment to use it.

Mindrazor+halberds have the same effect if the above restrictions dont apply.
QED

Now your "spent less for spears" argument is also flawed because you need more spears than halberds to maintain combat effectiveness after casualties. You need at least 40 halberds or 50 spearmen to have full attacking ranks after 10 casualties. thats 10 points of difference.

I would never take spearmen just because I'd use a shadow wizard. In fact most of the time I bring shadow with halberd hordes. Spears have so many "ifs" and "whens" in a real tactical situation that they quickly become a burden.

Otherwise I admit I have read too hasty your later posts. My answer with the formation change was intended to Forgotten Beast.