Topic: Karl Franz led lists

[Fandir Nightshade]

A Blender Lord has good chances to take Karl down before he strikes with Ghal Maraz. If you grant him ASF or ws 10 I 10 (denying re rolls to hit reducing 98 % hits to 50 % hits) will let the Vampire lord reconsider.

[Amon]

I'm trying to figure out if in a horde of greatswords (with WP and light magic support) Karl couldn't be crushing on foot. Thoughts? He just seems like such a good beater and helps compensate for our normally crap character issues.

[psychichobo]

A Blender Lord has good chances to take Karl down before he strikes with Ghal Maraz. If you grant him ASF or ws 10 I 10 (denying re rolls to hit reducing 98 % hits to 50 % hits) will let the Vampire lord reconsider.

In all fairness, Blender Lord scares nearly any character.

I am rather impressed with Lietpold the Black though. In my games with him he's held off some surprisingly powerful enemy lords, though his S4 still fails him marvellously.


Mounted Valten's probably the best CC character we have, but Karl's 18" Ld 10 bubble is possibly more useful than a 6" Stubborn Bubble (Stubble?)

[Fandir Nightshade]

Karl on mounted warhorse is the best deal between having a very tough and hitty lord. He is also very good to deal with stuff like Demigryphs, Skullcrushers and the like...oh and he loves fighting ogres.

[carmaul]

Karl on mounted warhorse is the best deal between having a very tough and hitty lord. He is also very good to deal with stuff like Demigryphs, Skullcrushers and the like...oh and he loves fighting ogres.

But he still refuses to use a shield, so he will not have the 1+ armor save he deserves.

[emcdunna]

yeah 18" LD 10 bubble is really good for empire. i think maybe a unit of greatswords with karl on foot might work. its hard to say. his smaller frontage would be nice.

you literally only need to fear a vamp lord. i dont think dark elves or high elves actually do much blender lord stuff and every other race wont have ASF at least.

[BBorN]

The main reason KF on foot doesn't work well is he is reduced to only a 4+ save that way

[emcdunna]

yeah but armor saves are kind of whatever anyway, plus he kills good enough not to be too worried about it. keep him in a bunker, pass out the LD10 bubble, then send him against minor characters/unit champs and maybe you can do him on foot.

whatd be perfect is KF + deathclaw if he got combined profiles (combine W and T and saves and such).

[psychichobo]

Hmm, I dunno. Karl's got a scary weapon, but any CC character worth his salt will be ignoring his armour save and will have a decent ward of their own.

I'd still be wary of sending him up against a Chaos Lord, or an Elf. Heck, a Beastlord could be a problem, and Doombulls can be very scary.

Blenderlord's possibly the only build that is very likely to kill him though, on account of attacking first and getting additional attacks in. Every other character might not finish him off before he gets a chance to swing - though he could easily miss or bounce off a ward.

I think he should be OK, but best to be wary of the powerhouses just in case.


EDIT: Malekith could ruin him, but he's a bit hit and miss...

[Fandir Nightshade]

Not even combat characters but rank and file troops will rip him apart on foot...also you won´t get him where you want him. Fighty character always always always at the very least on a horse. There is no advantage at all to put him on foot. Horse and a unit of at least 10 knights...who are soooo dirt cheap it makes little to no sense to put him in infantry.

[emcdunna]

oh the other thing you can do is no matter what unit hes in basically only be 3 wide, just command in front and have karl in the second rank. when the vamp lord or elf kills your cham (only target) karl slides into base contact then swings and kill the vamp in one round of combat.

if the guy doesnt go after the champ and just does R and F then you can swing once as a supporting attack and do that for a few turns to scare him.

if he challenges you accept with the champ i guess or you decline im not sure.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Or the enemy lord simply kills a lot of R&F, and since you have no ranks, you have no rank bonus, and cannot be steadfast either. With the negative combat score, you lose your Breaktest, flee and get overrun. Bye, bye, Karl Franz.  You certainly need something that makes your unit Stubborn.

[emcdunna]

Thats why the unit you are in is Reiksguard, duh hahaha.

that or you can be on foot in a unit of like 15 ish greatswords, be in the second rank at the start and attack over people

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Ah yes, I forgot about the Reiksguard.

[emcdunna]

reiksguard in a unit of about 12 that are 3 wide with a warrior priest and karl franz is a great idea. or if you have enough points take ludwig swarzhelm. 18" bsb effect is unique to empire. we should be using this guy more! plus in a unit with karl you can sacrifice ludwig to save karl with a 2+ look out sir in close combat.

[mottdon]

I love Ludwig...and his beard.   

[emcdunna]

hahahah ludwig looks like a dwarf

but remember! he gets to give KF a look out sir in combat, thats pretty cool! watch the look on some blender lords face when he does 7 wounds to karl franz that ignore armor saves and he doesnt die! hahaha sure ludwig would die and you prob take like 2 wounds but still, you got one wound left so you can wack him in the face with ghal maraz and honestly show me any monster/character that can survive 4 attacks from karl with ghal maraz on average doing something like  6 wounds (without ward) on average killing any thing with 3 wounds even with a  1+ 4++ and any toughness

[Rein]

hahahah ludwig looks like a dwarf

but remember! he gets to give KF a look out sir in combat, thats pretty cool! watch the look on some blender lords face when he does 7 wounds to karl franz that ignore armor saves and he doesnt die! hahaha sure ludwig would die and you prob take like 2 wounds but still, you got one wound left so you can wack him in the face with ghal maraz and honestly show me any monster/character that can survive 4 attacks from karl with ghal maraz on average doing something like  6 wounds (without ward) on average killing any thing with 3 wounds even with a  1+ 4++ and any toughness

Is this based on math or on luck ?

[emcdunna]

math. ludwig essentially gives you 2 2+ ward saves for it to get allocated to him, them karl still has a healthy 2+ 4++ and dont forget MR3 for spell protection. so ludwig takes the first 2 wounds then your ward save can save you from most of the rest of the attacks most of the time.

[PeytonS]

math. ludwig essentially gives you 2 2+ ward saves for it to get allocated to him, them karl still has a healthy 2+ 4++ and dont forget MR3 for spell protection. so ludwig takes the first 2 wounds then your ward save can save you from most of the rest of the attacks most of the time.

Ludwig can only take one wound per turn for Karl, on average a blender lord will do one wound to Ludwig and two to Karl, survive Karl's attacks (with the ward that he absolutely has), then kill them both in the next round of combat.  Risky for both characters but on average the vamp walks away with almost 700 vps and your command in the toilet.

[PeytonS]

reiksguard in a unit of about 12 that are 3 wide with a warrior priest and karl franz is a great idea. or if you have enough points take ludwig swarzhelm. 18" bsb effect is unique to empire. we should be using this guy more! plus in a unit with karl you can sacrifice ludwig to save karl with a 2+ look out sir in close combat.

Just to clarify, any bsb on a large target grants an 18" leadership bubble as well. 

[emcdunna]

do you know how many large target BSBs are feasible? very few. you wanna put your noble BSB on a griffon? yeah that does not work.

oh okay, and i still think you got 4 attacks, 3 hits, auto wound, no armor, you get a 4++ but mathematically you fail 1.5 of them then you take 1.5*d3 wounds. so on average you do 3 wounds to a guy with a 4++ ward. so 60ish% of the time you kill the vamp in one round of combat, or you kill any 3 wound character in 1 round

[PeytonS]

do you know how many large target BSBs are feasible? very few. you wanna put your noble BSB on a griffon? yeah that does not work.

oh okay, and i still think you got 4 attacks, 3 hits, auto wound, no armor, you get a 4++ but mathematically you fail 1.5 of them then you take 1.5*d3 wounds. so on average you do 3 wounds to a guy with a 4++ ward. so 60ish% of the time you kill the vamp in one round of combat, or you kill any 3 wound character in 1 round

I didn't say it was feasable (though I do run a griffon bsb in my high elf army and don't think it's that bad.  How many games have you played with it?) I was simply pointing out that other armies have access to it.  Also one might argue that an expensive bsb with a 2+ save who has to take hits for Karl who is much better protected vs death snipes or rank and file isn't going to work that well.  Maybe that's why you rarely see Ludwig on the field. 

4 Attacks hitting on 4's is 2 hits, unless this is a perfect situation where a vamp lord has decided to charge into your knight unit with a hurricanum behind it.  Karl will also bash most things if he has Timewarp or Speed of Light or Savage Beasts.

[emcdunna]

i have played several although honestly they were all against cannons.

i think you dont see ludwig because he cant be on foot. if he could be on foot and simply hide in a bunker thenn youd be fine but on a horse you kind of feel obligated to charge in with him

a 3k empire list that wants to be all cav should probably try having karl and ludwig. because you are gonna put these guys in your big inner circle unit and charge in guns ablazing.

[PeytonS]

If the BSB on griffon is your only cannon target it's going to be tough, but if you take multiple monsters or just hide the bsb you should be able to kill the cannons quickly with high elf shooting or chaff and then get in the game.  Is it the best option?  No.  Is it possible to get an 18" bsb bubble with armies other than empire?  Yes.

Maybe you should include an infantry version of Ludwig in your revised Empire book.