Topic: Karl Franz led lists

[emcdunna]

infantry ludwig and infantry balthasar gelt would both be very welcome in the competitive field. maybe i will! you know eltharion can choose not to ride a griffin, so can karl franz. why not these two?

[PeytonS]

Let us know how he goes, for tournament players it's not going to be an option unless gw changes it in the next book!

[emcdunna]

i think empires regular characters are not good enough compared to every other army, yes they are cheap, but maybe special characters can give you what you need.

[Mortim]

Hmm... I dont even think they are cheap lol..

60 pts Captain vs 70 pts DE Master? 10 pts for reroll everything + strike first vs cold blooded....

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Yes, Empire characters are not really cheap.

[emcdunna]

yeah captains arent cheap but warrior priests are. itd be more balanced if all of our characters were 20 pts cheaper each but still, what i meant by cheap is that they dont do much combat wise.

elf nobles compared to our captains is a joke. just as greatswords vs white lions is a joke

[Rein]

warrior priest are cheap?? What? they are only 5 pts cheaper than captains and have ofcourse less attacks. So you mean it is cheap to give hatred to a unit?

Like free for elves and it cost us about (60-80)/number of models ? that is not cheap!

[BBorN]

Blender vamp with ASF red fury all the goodies and +2 S sword vs KF:

Vamp gets 5 attacks, hits 4.44 times with reroll. Wounds on 2s doing 3.7 wounds. Karl has 6+ armor and 4+ ward, so takes 1.54 wounds. Round up to 2 wounds ( barely) gives 2 more attacks doing 1.47 wounds. KF takes .62 wounds.

KF has a very very slim chance of being killed first.

If he lives he does 2 wounds, one gets through and you have a 33% chance of killing the vamp

The point isn't that KF WILL kill any character it's that he has a very good chance of rollif high on that d3. Do you want to take the chance your whole army will crumble after that?

[emcdunna]

Another thing I noticed with empire is that people fear certain units more than they should and others less than they should. They fear charging a greatsword horde or a flagellant horde, they don't fear halberdiers. Most people aren't used to seeing what 50 halberdiers with hatred wagons prayers and buff magic a"l do when combined together at the same time and charge in and get wrecked.

[Dosiere]

i wish I played your opponents.  Mine clearly see Greatswords for the T3 4+ armor save, strikes last points sink they really are.  Granted, my last time using them was against HE, and their elite infantry laugh at them.

[emcdunna]

Seriously, greatswords cost as much as an elf with less stats and less crazy awesome special rules. Its getting to a point where even if a luminark gave you +1 T and a hurricanum gave you +1 S we'd still be behind the elites for what it costs to field an empire infantry force.

[Rommel44]

I only used Karl Franz in one way when I played my Empire (looking to rebuild it from scratch). I simply stuck him on a Barded Warhorse w/Ghal Marz and stuck him with a unit of either 12x IC Knights w/Lances, Shields, and a Mounted WP, or one of my personal favorites, I stick him with a unit of 28x IC Knights w/Lances, Shields and a WP as well in a 10x3 Horde Cavalry formation =D. Both are good options as it gives me a hard hitting unit, as I feel that Greatswords are a waste of points as they die to easily and just aren't worth it.

[emcdunna]

Greatswords were made to be super expensive because they said oh no we can't hand out that much stubborn to detachments!
But seriously because empire came out early in 8th before the elf books all came out. If they redid empire tomorrow i'm completely sure that all our infantry would be cheaper or get like a massive boost to special rules.

[Waywatcher]

I ran Karl Franz once, during a 3-player-per-side mega battle along two tables.

36" radius of Ld10 was awesome.

[emcdunna]

KF on deathclaw would totally work in a 5k game. you could decently protect him. that or put him on a horse in a knight bunker.

[Jomppexx]

KF on deathclaw would totally work in a 5k game. you could decently protect him. that or put him on a horse in a knight bunker.

Or allow us to purchase armour for our griffons...
The model clearly has armor on the chest, but has no kind of save.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The armour is ceremonial - just like the armour of the war horses dragging the War Altar/wand wagons. 

[Jomppexx]

The armour is ceremonial - just like the armour of the war horses dragging the War Altar/wand wagons. 

War altar and the wagons have a 5+ armour save, representing the horses and "barding", albeit its not marked on the profile.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

BRB p. 86:
Chariots have a fixed armour save, as detailed in their army list entry. Such an armour save takes into account the hardiness of the chariot, the armour worn by the crew and any barding on the mounts (but barding still slows the model down).


The WA/wand wagon mounts do not have any barding. Note that, as a result, the WA and wand wagon do not suffer -1 to Movement either.

[Jomppexx]

That is why I wrote "barding", because I imagine that's how the 5+ armour is justified.

But anyway, giving armour to the griffon would make it actually playable, maybe 6+ scaly skin and an option to purchase fullplate armour?

[emcdunna]

if the griffin could get a 3+ or 4+ armor save cheaply then thatd be nice but it wouldnt help vs cannons.

[Jomppexx]

Nothing, expect wards help against cannons. I understand why a griffon wont have a ward save, but I don't understand why it can't be given armour.

[emcdunna]

I think its stupid that there are things in the warhammer world with S10 but nothing with T10. literally 99% of things are T6 or less and there are tons of units who can get S6 to deal with all of the toughest shiit in the world.

griffins should be T7. Dragons T9. stuff like that.

[Waywatcher]

I think its stupid that there are things in the warhammer world with S10 but nothing with T10. literally 99% of things are T6 or less and there are tons of units who can get S6 to deal with all of the toughest shiit in the world.

griffins should be T7. Dragons T9. stuff like that.

Well, the casket of souls has T10 but I get the idea. They should have more and different toughness monsters. T7 or T8 Giants with more wounds might actually be worthwhile.

Oh, and with all the dragon armor, Dragonhelm, etc. 2+ ward saves v flaming, a dragon should have a ward against flaming too.

[Jomppexx]

I think its stupid that there are things in the warhammer world with S10 but nothing with T10. literally 99% of things are T6 or less and there are tons of units who can get S6 to deal with all of the toughest shiit in the world.

griffins should be T7. Dragons T9. stuff like that.

Well, the casket of souls has T10 but I get the idea. They should have more and different toughness monsters. T7 or T8 Giants with more wounds might actually be worthwhile.

Oh, and with all the dragon armor, Dragonhelm, etc. 2+ ward saves v flaming, a dragon should have a ward against flaming too.

Ohhhooh yes please!
I always thought black dragons should have a 2+ ward or be immune to fire completely.
And monsters should be way stronger, dragons should be like S8, T9. In the current world, it appears daemon princes are the fiercest of beasts, as they have the toughness of a griffon and the strength of a dragon, also armour and wards.
 "Monster" should mean something else than "point your cannon at me and win".
I wish I had played during 7th ed. not wounding everything on 6's seems logical. How would a spear break a tank?