Topic: Fast Cavalry Question

[mottdon]

Are fast cavalry that carry shields still considered fast cav.?  I have a friend that said they (Wolf Riders with shields) weren't.

[Waywatcher]

Carrying shields is irrelevant to fast cav status.

Some army books (like Empire) will allow a fast cav unit to take an option that erases its fast cav status. (Outriders and barding in our case)

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

What Waywatcher says - and there is no such restriction in the O&G AB.

[mottdon]

Okay, so Wild Riders can carry shields without giving up their fast cav status.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Yes, there is no such restriction for Wild Riders either.
Note the only restriction in the BRB (p.68): "If a Fast Cavalry unit is joined by a character without the Fast Cavalry rule, the unit loses the rule until the character leaves."

[Syn Ace]

Haven't run my fast cav in quite some time, but I know in earlier editions at least, Fast Cav used to have an armor save restriction -- you couldn't have an armor save better than a 5+ so giving shields to certain cav units would cancel out the Fast Cav abilities for them. Maybe that's where he's getting it?

[mottdon]

I think it is.  He's been playing for 20+ years, so sometimes old rules like that creep in.  I keep saying, "I don't remember ever reading anything like that."  That's why I ask you guys.  Good neutral third party.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

There are many undead rules haunting Warhammer.

[psychichobo]

Curiously, Marauder Horsemen still have the restriction. Not sure why specifically.

[wilsonthenarc]

Where's the All-Marauder-Horsemen army?

[Vauln]

Yeah, Marauder Horsemen can take shields but if you give them light armor they lose Fast Calvary.

I have been slowly building up a Chaos Warriors army, my theme is 'Marauder Beastmaster'. Marauder Horsemen, Core Chariots, Dogs, Gorebeast Chariot, Helstriders, Chimera, etc. Basically no infantry, and no actual Chaos Warriors, even the chariot crew have been replaced with marauders. The overall look of the army is very cool. 

[wilsonthenarc]

I have been slowly building up a Chaos Warriors army, my theme is 'Marauder Beastmaster'. Marauder Horsemen, Core Chariots, Dogs, Gorebeast Chariot, Helstriders, Chimera, etc. Basically no infantry, and no actual Chaos Warriors, even the chariot crew have been replaced with marauders. The overall look of the army is very cool.

I like a lot. Got pics?

[zifnab0]

no infantry, and no actual Chaos Warriors

Sounds like every Warriors of Chaos army I've played against in 8th edition.   

[Waywatcher]

no infantry, and no actual Chaos Warriors

Sounds like every Warriors of Chaos army I've played against in 8th edition.   

A local WOC player runs a horde of Khorne Halberdier Warriors to fill out his core. That many WS5 S5 I5 attacks (51A typically) really make a dent in something that touches it.

[wilsonthenarc]

How are you getting 51? (just wondering, I assume 5 frontage, 3 deep)

[Waywatcher]

How are you getting 51? (just wondering, I assume 5 frontage, 3 deep)

Horde. 10 wide; 2 base attacks +1 for frenzy. 31 for the front rank (champion) plus 10 for the subsequent two ranks.

Naturally, if the enemy is less than a horde there are fewer incoming attacks; but even a 5x20mm unit will receive 31 attacks--nothing to sneeze at.

[wilsonthenarc]

Horde. 10 wide; 2 base attacks +1 for frenzy. 31 for the front rank (champion) plus 10 for the subsequent two ranks.
Naturally, if the enemy is less than a horde there are fewer incoming attacks; but even a 5x20mm unit will receive 31 attacks--nothing to sneeze at.

Gotcha!'

It wasn't even that. I am a dumb dumb. I was assuming extra hand weapons. You obviously said Halberds.

[Noght]

A local WOC player runs a horde of Khorne Halberdier Warriors to fill out his core. That many WS5 S5 I5 attacks (51A typically) really make a dent in something that touches it.

Khorne Warriors you say?  Frenzied Khorne Warriors?  The ones that have to overrun?  Those guys?  Perfect.  Frenzy bait for the win.....

no infantry, and no actual Chaos Warriors

Sounds like every Warriors of Chaos army I've played against in 8th edition.   

Well, we do see the TZ Warriors with a 5+ Parry save. 

[Waywatcher]

A local WOC player runs a horde of Khorne Halberdier Warriors to fill out his core. That many WS5 S5 I5 attacks (51A typically) really make a dent in something that touches it.

Khorne Warriors you say?  Frenzied Khorne Warriors?  The ones that have to overrun?  Those guys?  Perfect.  Frenzy bait for the win.....

no infantry, and no actual Chaos Warriors

Sounds like every Warriors of Chaos army I've played against in 8th edition.   

Well, we do see the TZ Warriors with a 5+ Parry save. 

Yeah, except he puts a BSB with the crown of command in there too. Even on their flank they fight hard, will stick, and promptly turn to face.

5+ parry TZ guys are ripe for a stank. S4 and not many attacks so they won't ever hurt it much.

[Noght]

Yeah, except he puts a BSB with the crown of command in there too. Even on their flank they fight hard, will stick, and promptly turn to face.

Huh?  Frenzied troops must overrun.  You treat it like a 40 wound K'Daii, you don't fight it, you send it away from your stuff.  Or you could hit the now out of position Warriors in flanks x2 or flank/rear and prevent the "turn to face".  I'd be inclined to walk it off the board.

5+ parry TZ guys are ripe for a stank. S4 and not many attacks so they won't ever hurt it much.

Spoken for truth.

[Waywatcher]

Huh?  Frenzied troops must overrun.  You treat it like a 40 wound K'Daii, you don't fight it, you send it away from your stuff.  Or you could hit the now out of position Warriors in flanks x2 or flank/rear and prevent the "turn to face".  I'd be inclined to walk it off the board.

It's not unstoppable. The BSB does basically make the unit un-baitable though. But avoiding it for the game will not result in a large margin of victory, if even victory can be achieved elsewhere. It's a lot like a SOBU horde.

Theres a difference between playing to avoid losing, and playing to win. I used to play to avoid losing. Now I play to win. I found that playing to avoid losing was stressful and didn't win as much as just playing to win. I'm not saying you are or aren't, that's just what I found.

[Noght]

I'm missing something.  How is it un-baitable? 

[Syn Ace]

Well i guess he's saying unbaitable from the standpoint of being able to make a leadership check to not frenzy charge. Once it's in combat, that's moot since it will have to pursue or overrun.

[Waywatcher]

I'm missing something.  How is it un-baitable?

Ld9 with a reroll. There's less than a 3% chance of failing; making it un-baitable in practice.

[Noght]

Well i guess he's saying unbaitable from the standpoint of being able to make a leadership check to not frenzy charge. Once it's in combat, that's moot since it will have to pursue or overrun.

Ah.  But if you have your 100 point Pistolier unit parked in front of it, he has to do something.  And because you will lose combat there has to be a pursuit or overrun, as you say.

Ld9 with a reroll. There's less than a 3% chance of failing; making it un-baitable in practice.

I'm assuming it has to charge something at some point otherwise it's pinned.