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Author Topic: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council  (Read 8747 times)

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2014, 03:17:33 PM »
Either:

a. Pigeon bombs are a missile weapon.

b. Pigeon bombs are not a missile weapon.

If we accept a, then it follows: You can stand and shoot with a missile weapon.  Therefore you can stand and shoot with pigeon bombs.

If we accept b, then it follows: You can only stand and shoot with a missile weapon.  Therefore you cannot stand and shoot with Pigeon Bombs.

The problem with b. is that if you accept this interpretation, then a Master Engineer can never use Pigeon Bombs, even in the shooting phase, because an Engineer cannot choose to use them "instead of" another missile weapon (which he lacks).

Option b creates an absurd result that nullifies the rule.  The rules writers would not write rules that have no effect on the game.  We must conclude that b is wrong.

This leaves us with a as the correct answer.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2014, 03:31:12 PM »
Incorrect. The fact that something is a missile weapon does not mean it necessarly can stand and shoot.
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Offline Rein

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2014, 03:34:17 PM »
Incorrect. The fact that something is a missile weapon does not mean it necessarly can stand and shoot.

well it does

edit: unless specifically stated that it can not. (see warmachines)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 03:37:05 PM by Rein »

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2014, 03:49:43 PM »
Incorrect. The fact that something is a missile weapon does not mean it necessarly can stand and shoot.

well it does

edit: unless specifically stated that it can not. (see warmachines)

And it is specifically stated that a pigeon bomb is used "instead of firing a weapon in the Shooting phase." In addition, I refer to my earlier post: in a S&S reaction, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack. At least according to BRB p. 99, any template weapon is not a normal shooting attack.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2014, 04:06:26 PM »
C is completely unplayable. "The engineer may be armed with one of the following:"
Pigeon bombs are in the list with every other missile weapon, meaning it's only ever possible to have one missile weapon. Reading it in strict RAW, pigeon bombs, if taken, may never be used. Period.

Unless, of course, we ignore the FAQ - then it would work.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Rein

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2014, 04:16:25 PM »
In a S&S reaction, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack.

normal means: just like it would normally do (with all the rules)
out of sequence means: it is irrelevant that it is not the shooting phase.

leading to:

In a S&S reaction, the unit makes a shooting attack just as if it would be the shooting phase of that player. (this is the only reasonable interpretation)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2014, 04:29:17 PM »
It is not the only reasonable explanation, but it is the only one you can use for your interpretation. 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 04:37:12 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Rein

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #107 on: October 01, 2014, 05:02:46 PM »
1) Your definition is about 'Normal' shooting attacks, which is not the same as normal shooting attacks.
2) Also you can not use words like normal in definitions, because you want to be able to still use these words in context. (it is a small mistake, but GW makes them all the time)
3) If this would be a formal global definition then there would be no reason to give warmachine (except bolt throwers) the slow to fire special rule.
4) There would also be no need for an exception stated in the next part on page 99. The sentence would only need to say shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules.
5) A doom-rocket would not be able to S&S

It is not consistent within the rules framework, not because I want it to be something. The rules should be consistent!

Offline Rein

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #108 on: October 01, 2014, 05:14:29 PM »
I read the comment of zifnab0 and the FAQ clearly states the Pigeon Bomb as a missile weapon.

However the problem is better put into words like this:

a. Pigeon bombs use the normal rules for missile weapons. With the rules for range and target given by the rules in the AB

b. Pigeon bombs do not use the normal rules for missile weapons and only use the rules given in the AB.

If we accept a, then it follows: You can stand and shoot with a missile weapon.  Therefore you can stand and shoot with pigeon bombs.

If we accept b, then it follows: You cannot stand and shoot with Pigeon Bombs because the rules in the AB do not say you can. However you can shoot into combat, out of your forward arc and on non visible targets.

So the question is rather: Are the rules for normal shooting attacks added to the rules for Pigeon bombs (like in the case of other missiles weapons)
Or are they excluding the normal shooting rules and only use the rules written in the AB ?

I am happy with both of them, but I feel option A will lead to less problems with general rules than option B.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #109 on: October 01, 2014, 06:13:02 PM »
1) Your definition is about 'Normal' shooting attacks, which is not the same as normal shooting attacks.
2) Also you can not use words like normal in definitions, because you want to be able to still use these words in context. (it is a small mistake, but GW makes them all the time)
3) If this would be a formal global definition then there would be no reason to give warmachine (except bolt throwers) the slow to fire special rule.
4) There would also be no need for an exception stated in the next part on page 99. The sentence would only need to say shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules.
5) A doom-rocket would not be able to S&S

It is not consistent within the rules framework, not because I want it to be something. The rules should be consistent!

1. Possible - as I myself indicated. It could also mean "attacks following the normal rules for Shooting" - which does not apply to pigeon bombs either.
2. Not impossible, but unconvincing as an argument - there are plenty of other ways available to convey that.
3. Or, for once, GW tried to plug obvious loopholes. Not that it helps - as Predatory Fighter shows.
4. I do not know what you are trying to tell here.
5. The rules of the Doomrocket actually specify it can S&S. The rules for the pigeon bombs do not.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Rein

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #110 on: October 01, 2014, 06:31:08 PM »
5. No the rules do not. The FAQ does, however. But questions/answers are not rules (like you said).

4. "The only exceptions to this are shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules, specifically [..]". Why make an exception if it is already clear that these shooting attacks are not 'normal' shooting attacks?

This shows how (non)consistent the rules of GW are.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2014, 06:32:43 PM »
5. No the rules do not. The FAQ does, however. But questions/answers are not rules (like you said).

Yes, the rules do, because it is an Erratum and not an FAQ.

By the way, comparison of the wording is suggestive, although not conclusive.

"The Doomrocket may be fired in the Shooting phase, or as a stand and shoot charge reaction."
"A Master Engineer with Pigeon Bombs can use them instead of firing a weapon in the Shooting phase."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 06:38:21 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Rein

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2014, 06:52:49 PM »
The Doom rocket is not classified as a missile weapon. It is a Magic weapon. So actually it needs a rule to be able to S&S.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2014, 07:02:47 PM »
Yes - but the classification as a missile weapon does come from an FAQ. And without that FAQ, the paradox disappears - or at least has a good explanation.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2014, 07:15:34 PM »
"The only exceptions to this are shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules, specifically [..]". Why make an exception if it is already clear that these shooting attacks are not 'normal' shooting attacks?

The "definition" of "normal shooting attacks" only occurs in the section of how hits are allocated when characters are in a unit.  There is no indication that these rules are applicable outside of that section.

Offline Calisson

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2014, 07:24:38 PM »
Noting that the night had barely started, Scheherazade initiated a new story: the Pigeon Council. There it was.

As it was customary every Wednesday evening, the Caliph Harun al-Rashid was receiving all plaintiffs which could not come into an agreement with the help of the district's Cadi.
The weirdest ruling of that night started when the Caliph’s guards brought in two plaintiffs and a man of science, who was carrying a large cage with six white doves.

Ja’far the Vizir introduced the case. He explained that one of the plaintiffs, named Rein, claimed that the man of science should be authorized, in case a warrior declared a charge against him, to remain standing and also to throw at him one of the doves.
The Caliph was very surprised and asked how it could be possible.
The man named Rein bowed, and provided all kind of explanations along with many quotes from the Sunnah. He argued with the finest jurisprudence, and concluded that it proved his case. Many people in the audience made gestures of approval.
Harun al-Rashid nodded and told: “I understand. You are right.”

Then Ja’far objected: “But my Lord, how can you judge without hearing the other plaintiff?”
The Caliph listened to his Vizir and agreed to hear the opposing party.
The contender was Fidelis, a well known Ulama from the great Mosque of Baghdad. He was versed in both Hanafi and Shafi'i schools of Sharia, the Islamic law. He provided enlightened interpretations of several parts of the Hadith, with many references to God’s Will (GW). His knowledge was so admirable that the Caliph could only approve and reply: “Now I see. You are right, of course.”

This is when the Vizir Ja’far showed some signs of desperation. “But… my Lord, this man and that man cannot be both right simultaneously!”
Harun al-Rashid stared at Ja’far. Then he looked silently at each plaintiff, at the man of science and at his six doves. The whole audience was breathlessly waiting for the Caliph’s ultimate judgment.
Finally, the Caliph ruled: “Indeed, Ja’far. I say it solemnly, you too are right.”


« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 07:34:03 PM by Calisson »

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2014, 07:27:15 PM »
Indeed, Calisson, you too are right.  :smile2:
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Rein

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2014, 08:28:54 PM »
very nice Calisson!

Offline Mordenkai

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Re: Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
« Reply #118 on: October 02, 2014, 08:20:18 AM »

Well written, Calisson!  :eusa_clap: