Topic: Sigmarism in Talabheim

[Alexis]

Some friends and I are starting a roleplaying game based in the Empire, beginning in Talabheim. After a long conversation and a reading of several sources, such as Terror in Talabheim and Uniforms and Heraldry of the Empire, we couldn't agree on some minor points, so I thought I would see what you guys thought.

Obviously, Taal and Rhya are the main two dieties worshipped in Talabheim. Terror in Talabheim tells me Verena is next, due to it being law obsessed, with Sigmar a sorry 4th. (Apparently to the Emperor's dismay).

Why then are the uniforms in Heraldry of the Empire absalutely covered in comets and Sigmarite hammers? There is one banner with 'TAAL' on it, but surely this sort of underplays him? I have also read online that because a comet created Talabheim, they in some way feel close to Sigmar? It's all a bit wishy washy.

Just wondering what anyone thinks of this. Personally, I believe Sigmar worship plays a part in Talabheim, but in a minority way. I don't really think the state troops would be wearing Sigmar imagery over Taal.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The U&H give the story that the state banner carries a warrior maiden with the icon of thc Imperial Griffon and the Hammer of Sigmar, because such a maiden rescued the city in 1111. Perhaps she herself had some connectiuon with Sigmar, but I would link it with the prophesy of Sigmar, that Talabheim would never fall, and the Sigmarite symbols refer to that prophesy.

That said, fluff can change considerably between the editions. While Tall has always been the most important deity, the ranking of the other cults may not be that fixed. In any case, the fact that Talabheim is the seat of an Arch-Lector of the Sigmarite Church implies a certain level of importance.

[S.O.F]

Why then are the uniforms in Heraldry of the Empire absalutely covered in comets and Sigmarite hammers?

Alas because most of the U&H book is a phoned in paint bucket changes from whatever program they used to make it, Middenland and Middenheim also have shields bearing Twin-tailed comets and Hammers of Sigmar as well.

In general though as Fidelis has said it all depends on edition, though I would think putting Sigmar 4th in importance in the City State of Talabheim feels about right. It is interesting to note that we don't have much information on Talabheim from the Civil War years (GW never really wanted to name many of the Ottila's) but one would think that from 1340s' to the reconciliation of the Ulrican High Priests and the Grafs of Middenheim that there may not even have been a sitting Arch-Lector in Talabheim. Then up until the Imperial reunification of the Empire under Magnus it may still not have had one or perhaps one appointed by the Ottila's and counter to the sitting Grand Theogonist in Nuln or Altdorf (depending on date).

[Alexis]

Interesting points, especially the Arch-Lector.

So, do you feel that the comets and hammers on the generic state troop box are befitting for Talabheim state troops?

[FVC]

I think it's probably also worth remembering that this is a polytheistic society: you would expect most people to worship every deity depending on context, as appropriate. So where Taal might be seen as the special patron of Talabheim, or Ulric of Middenheim, this is not necessarily exclusionary.

What's the usual context for Sigmar-worship? Well, since Sigmar is the god of the Empire as an institution and one of the foremost gods of soldiery, surely it's plausible that soldiers in imperial sevice would invoke Sigmar for aid and protection? A Reikland hunter or farmer still calls upon Taal or Rhya. So too, then, is a Talabheim soldier likely to call upon Sigmar. He is the military god.

(Ulric and Myrmidia are also relevant military gods, of course, but I believe neither are very popular in Talabheim.)

Alas because most of the U&H book is a phoned in paint bucket changes from whatever program they used to make it, Middenland and Middenheim also have shields bearing Twin-tailed comets and Hammers of Sigmar as well.

Southern Middenland is Sigmarite. It's only Middenheim and its surrounds that are fanatical Ulricans.

[S.O.F]

Southern Middenland is Sigmarite. It's only Middenheim and its surrounds that are fanatical Ulricans.

Yes but state troops wouldn't be show up and 'you lot get to put whatever confession you are on your shields'. Regular units are still raised in the interest of and for the service to Graf Todbringer, an Ulrican. Sure local militia or troops in Carroburg livery I've no problem bearing Sigmarite insignia just doesn't fit on any state regulars

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As SOF indicates, the coat of arms of state troops is determined by the coat of arms of their lord. The coat of arms could always change according to the gusto of the ruler (if he had that authority - historically not all of them did).  Heraldic changes usually reflected dynastic and political changes, but heraldry could also be used to express ideological ideas or political statements (for a fictitious example: The History of Talabecland as reflected in its heraldry.)

Perhaps you could limit Sigmarite symbols to the Taalbaston guard. To refer again to the U&H, "Many of the Taalbaston Guard, the regiments that man the crater wall, bear the twintoiled comet symbol on their livery." Which, as I indicated above, one could take as a reference to Sigmar's prophesy that Talabheim will never fall. That said, you are stuck with the fact that the official coat of arms of Talabheim does contain the Imperial Griffon and Hammer, so they are not unlikely to appear on the livery of any Talabheim troops.

[Alexis]

Well, there's also the fact that the legitimacey of the term Emperor stems from Sigmar, am I right? I would also imagine the Sigmarite symbols on the Talabheim uniform would be because Taal is not a god of battle and Sigmar is.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As Sigmar founded the Empire, the Empire s closely linked to Sigmar. However, as SOF and I myself indicated, state troops bear the coat of arms of their liege, their immediate lord, which in the case of Talabheim is not the Emperor. Well, not since the collapse of the Ottilian Empire, which would not have used Sigmarian symbols. 

That said, in the HRE, the Reichsstädte (free imperal cities) used the Imperial Crown above the shield to indicate that they were only subordinate to the Holy Roman Emperor. However, that would not usually show up in the livery or banners of their troops, and (depending on the edition), Talabheim is an Electoral Grand Duchy, anyway.

[S.O.F]

I would also imagine the Sigmarite symbols on the Talabheim uniform would be because Taal is not a god of battle and Sigmar is.

While on a general level Taal is linked to nature and the hunt and Sigmar the Empire and battle, these are not hard demarcations of influence particularly when it comes to martial matters. All major cults, aside Ranald and Shallya, have martial aspects and military orders, though the latter has varying degrees on scope, size, and integration into the cult proper depending on the deity. Taal is the patron god of Talabheim and Talabecland, the land is named for him and the people who inhabit it are his people. Taal thus plays an important role in the symbols used by the City State and Province in that they are defending Taal's land, his gift to his mortal followers.

[Alexis]

I would also imagine the Sigmarite symbols on the Talabheim uniform would be because Taal is not a god of battle and Sigmar is.

While on a general level Taal is linked to nature and the hunt and Sigmar the Empire and battle, these are not hard demarcations of influence particularly when it comes to martial matters. All major cults, aside Ranald and Shallya, have martial aspects and military orders, though the latter has varying degrees on scope, size, and integration into the cult proper depending on the deity. Taal is the patron god of Talabheim and Talabecland, the land is named for him and the people who inhabit it are his people. Taal thus plays an important role in the symbols used by the City State and Province in that they are defending Taal's land, his gift to his mortal followers.

Sums it up perfectly - which is why I find all the images of the GW studio painted Talabheim state troops with twin tailed comets on their banners in the 8th edition rulebook annoying. Being massively OCD about it, it's bothering me that there are so many models with KF and comets all over them. 

[S.O.F]

Being massively OCD about it, it's bothering me that there are so many models with KF and comets all over them. 

It is worse than the models really, the Uniforms and Heraldry book despite having a blurb telling that KF appearing on the arms of Hochland is a seemingly unique dispensation by the Emperor in gratitude for saving his royal person it appears on about half the other provinces heraldry as well.

[GamesPoet]

Perhaps it is better than skulls.

[Alexis]

Perhaps it is better than skulls.

What about comets that upon closer inspection reveal themselves to be comet shaped skulls?

[Padre]

Or indeed skulls that on closer inspection reveal themselves to be skull shaped comets.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Never understimate GW skullptors...

[GamesPoet]

Paint trees!

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Like this one?

[GamesPoet]

Here are some samples ...

http://www.familytreesandcrests.com/heraldry-symbols-examples/heraldry-tree.htm

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Or perhaps you could paint the cross on the shields in such a way that it looks like a totem of Taal:
http://daarken.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Em_Taal_Totem_05_Daarken.jpg

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

To give another example of fluff changes or lack of coordination: according to the WFB Old World Armoury, the Griffon only became a symbol of the Empire/Emperor with Magnus the Pious, more than 1.000 years after 1111, when the Griffon is said to have become part of the Talabheim coat of arms.

[Alexis]

To give another example of fluff changes or lack of coordination: according to the WFB Old World Armoury, the Griffon only became a symbol of the Empire/Emperor with Magnus the Pious, more than 1.000 years after 1111, when the Griffon is said to have become part of the Talabheim coat of arms.

Sometimes I see the Talabheim heraldry with the griffon, sometimes not. Barring Uniforms and Heraldry of the Empire, is it stated officially anywhere?

I'm sort of at the conclusion that with polytheistic nature of the Empire, Sigmarite (or even Ulrician) symbols, especially on military, would be fine as long as there is some reference to Taal there aswell. (Obviously this means for the most part, I am sure not everyone in Talabheim is a Taal adherent.)

As a side note, having looked into it, there is almost zero information on the Arch-Lector of Talabheim. Infact, on a number of sources there seems to be a degree of confusion over whether it's actually Kaslain or Aglim.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

In an old WD (146 of 1992), the Talabheim coat of arms is a maiden in blue, standing on a skeleton, with the caption "None shall pass" (similar to an example in the U&H).

In the WFRP 2 Rulebook (2005), the Talabheim coat of arms is a comet (with skull) and hammer on a black field (similar to an example in the U&H - except for the skull).
In the WFRP 2 Old Armoury section on Coins, it is stated that "The city's location in the crater of a comet confirms the connection between the people of Talabheim and the symbol of Sigmar, the twin-tailed comet. To celebrate the vaunted status, they mark their Crowns with the image of the twin tailed Comet."

In WFRP 1 (1986), the Arch-Lector of Talabheim is named as Aglim [and Kaslain for Nuln]. In WFRP 2 "Sigmar's Heirs" (2005) the name is Thorgad IV, [but this is set after the Storm of Chaos.] The confusion stems probably from the 7th edition WFB Empire AB (2007), [which is set before SoC, and] where Aglim and Kaslain are again named as Arch-Lectors but without specifying the diocese.  Otherwise, there does indeed seem to be very little information, except perhaps in the novels (which I do not have). 

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

For the sake of completeness:  WFRP 3  (2009-) contains generally less details than the previous editions. The rulebook and the Tome of Blessings mention arch lectors, but, as far as I can see, none is named, nor are any dioceses of the Sigmarite Church presented. I could not find any heraldic indications for Talabheim either.

[Alexis]

Thanks for chasing those sources up, they were very useful. Quite a surprise the Tomeof Blessings has little to no information.