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Author Topic: How does Empire counter suicide elves?  (Read 18550 times)

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2009, 01:22:05 PM »
So, Philly just say crap without having faced the army at all, and say his list is the best Empire can produce... :icon_wink:
Well, Philly, I think there are better ways by far. If he moves forward hell for leather, your Helstorms will soon risk shooting at your own troops. A standard tactics used throughout history, if your enemy got much better firepower than you, get up close as fast as you can.
Or like the Vietnamese put it. The americans had lots of firepower, so the safest place was to be up close and grab them by the belt.
A unit of Vanilla knight will not break through on their own. If you use all three and focus on one spot, yeah, but if you want the spread out to support all your units. Plus, you assume he will not care about deployment but just scatter his units randomly. He will set up his best anti-cavalry folks in front of your cavalry. He will have crossbows to soften up your knights. Your cannons will not hurt him that much because there are not that many good targets for cannons. The Helstorms will do well, but he will advance forward fast and you will not get that many vollies of before he is upon you and you will risk hitting your own units.

As I see it, the way to beat them is to play Cannae. He has higher quality infantry, and lots and lots of it. But since he leave his cavalry at home, we got better cavalry for once! He hates, so he must pursue. Use that to draw his center deep into your half while your firepower and artillery breaks through the flanks. Double envelopement.

Combined arms is the way against that one. But please, take the missile infantry aswell. They will do good work decimating those druchii morons as they charge forward. Have the Helstorms target crossbows, your missile infantry targets his CC infantry, and knights smash the flanks.
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Offline Shadowlord

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2009, 01:32:37 PM »
He will have crossbows to soften up your knights.

How?
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Offline McKnight

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2009, 01:48:05 PM »
Hah, great Innerwolf, I dont know how i missed that  :icon_lol:

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Offline Shadowwolf

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2009, 01:57:33 PM »
I'd simply play a refused flank.

Place some disposable units on one of the flank and watch him line up his army across the board. Then march everything over to one side while giving the units on that side hell to march through with artillery and march blocks. Suddenly he's using half his army to get to two or three units on the other side, while you have superiority on the other. Divide and conquer.

I'd like to see how he would counter castling dwarves...

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Offline innerwolf

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2009, 02:00:41 PM »
He will have crossbows to soften up your knights.

How?

I don't agrre with Mathi and I don't understand what Shadowlord is saying.

I only know their repeater crossbows do to our cavalry a lot less damage than to the rest of cavalries. Why? The armour piercing is worth nothing. 1+ -1=> 2+  Here you have your super special rule, damn druchiis!
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Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2009, 02:09:23 PM »
Ah, yes. True. I guess it is up to feeding the cavalry a block of disposable heroes to tie them up for a while then.
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Offline Shadowlord

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2009, 02:21:49 PM »
I don't understand what Shadowlord is saying.

Of course you do:

Quote
I only know their repeater crossbows do to our cavalry a lot less damage than to the rest of cavalries. Why? The armour piercing is worth nothing. 1+ -1=> 2+  Here you have your super special rule, damn druchiis!

Precisely why I wrote my mocking "How?" comment.
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Offline Atchman

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2009, 02:50:51 PM »
That army does intrigue me.  I just wish someone would line up and shoot and magic it into oblivion just one game. :)  The Reman Legions would have fun with it I think, but would have to play carefully. 

Is the Caldron unkillable? 

You can almost play against it like you play against Skaven where you hold back as long as possible for your shooting to work.  Mass all your Knights together on on flank, and all the infantry on the other and almost nothing in the middle. 

I do like it though and would enjoy a matchup against it.  It doesn't have a way to deal with a Steamtank, and I would also think the War Altar with some sort of character killing combo could go after the General and pin their lines in place. 
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Offline Folken

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2009, 03:03:28 PM »
Can still use detachments to screw up his battle line, you charge in, you lose, some survive in your detachment, they are forced to pursue from hatred.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2009, 03:29:03 PM »
Why would we want to just shot and magic an army that have one VERY big postivie thing going on about it? Namely that it celebrate the infantry. When I heard about the suicide elves I got truly happy and are dreaming about making my own Suicide elven army just because it is a large army with many units, lots of infantry and looks like... an army.
Just shooting the crap out of it in an attempt to discourage it will only reinforce the trend that he who has the most shooty and magic army wins.
Why are people so derogatory about the army and talking about how they would use our meanest units enmasse to destroy it, as if it is something unwanted? I for one dream of the day when warhammer armies that included infantry in a healthy amount and have them as their important core becomes the most solid armies, unlike today when infantry is a sideshow. Now some DE player decided enough was enough and went all out on infantry and then people just laugh and start thinking about how they will humiliate the list as much as possible.

After all complains about monsters and hydras and whatnot... Well, I guess this means people want to fight other armies containing lots of monsters, magic, shooting and superunits...

Heck, I would surely take the chance of getting to fight a proper battle for once! I have no doubt my asaris could deal with that force without resorting to cheesy stuff like treemens, just one big dude, rest is infantry and cavalry. Ah, what a beautiful battle it would be! I would surely be able to match his numbers with dryads and wardancer units, have one EG and a Treeman for holding a pair of units while the wardancers moves in, and have the rest of my army playing tag team with hating druchiis. But most of all, I could fight a good honest solid exiting battle using my 1 wound asrais and dryads, rather than monsters. Lovely...
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Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2009, 03:35:47 PM »
Is the Caldron unkillable? 

The cauldron itself is unkillable, but the crew is three elves with no armour and a 4+ ward. Although one of the elves has 2 wounds, its not exactly tough to take out.
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Offline Pyre

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2009, 03:40:08 PM »
Ok, it's interesting but I don't see it as being the next great DE build.  It gives up two of the army's greatest assets, speed and maneuverability, for the dubious gain of a lot of infantry.  It's good infantry, sorry past the Black Guard I don't think any of them are great infantry, but in the end they're all low armor save and toughness three.

A combined arms Empire army should do well against it as long as you stay calm and pick your targets.  Ignore the cauldron and burn down the Black Guard and the Witch Elves while march blocking the rest of the army with Pistoleers and/or archer detachments.  If the spearmen make it to your lines... meh, it'll be close to a straight up fight and that's not bad.  If you have a couple of strong cavalry units, mass them on a flank.  Even if he positions his more elite units to counter them, the cavalry is still doing it's job by keeping those units away from our Empire boys.  If the cavalry breaks through, then have 1-2 units of Vanilla Knights turn to threaten flanks.  Even one block turned away from you can screw up his attack plans badly.

Also, put your cannons on the flanks.  That would be soooooo many targets to bounce through.

One last note, the unit that I immediately noticed was the Shades.  They, in a sense, are pivotal to him.  They can get at the artillery and shooting units and take them out early.  Be aware of them.

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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2009, 05:51:52 PM »
2 mortars 2 helstorms no matter where the shots land you are killing T3 elves.
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Offline innerwolf

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2009, 05:58:31 PM »
2 mortars 2 helstorms no matter where the shots land you are killing T3 elves.

It's true, as it's true for fighting any horde army. But you won't run 2 mortars and 2 helstorms if your list is not tailored. So in tournaments, where you can't allow yourself the luxury of having such a specialized list, this would be impossible.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2009, 06:00:47 PM »
I was about to say the same thing, innerwolf.  One trick pony armies are deadly when you're not expecting to face it, but when you have time to prepare it's a different story.
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2009, 06:05:03 PM »
2 mortars 2 helstorms no matter where the shots land you are killing T3 elves.

It's true, as it's true for fighting any horde army. But you won't run 2 mortars and 2 helstorms if your list is not tailored. So in tournaments, where you can't allow yourself the luxury of having such a specialized list, this would be impossible.

I wouldn't take these items normaly... but the topic is on how to counter them thus I assumed that we were talking about tailoring lists for them.
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Offline Dihenydd

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2009, 06:54:35 PM »
Actually its not the blocks that make this an elven TVI is the suicide concept.  Remember the most important point of TVI.  Everything is expendible.  In fact I would have no qualms bout facing it with my usual "Dih's War of Attrition" style army.

I would set up using a Refused Flank and face off against half his army.  My high move units would use bait techiques to gum up the other side.  My heavy hitters (Giant or Rhinox) would work off the flank and just eat elves all day.  My Mortar would giggle in the target-rich enviroment and the cannon go for the elites to wear down ranks.  Even with so many units, if you use a RF you will only see a few at a time which should allow you to get some detachments in and static CR win.  I'd probably use the Captasus instead of the Casketasus however.

That cauldron will not protect the whole army so work on those flanks and create some panic. 

Personally I think it would be a fun game to play and would most likely be a draw against an experience TVI or possible Empire win.

How many points is that army anyways?
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Offline phillyt

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2009, 10:25:16 PM »
The same reasons Pyre pointed out are why I think the army is junk.  It cannot deal with plenty of the armies out there.  It might do alright against EMpire, but it is ripe with bad match ups.  Plenty of infantry armies have come and gone, and this sort of army is the thing I played around with when I first saw the DE PDF a month before release.  It is tempting given the cheap troops, but won't work significantly better than any other all infantry list, except that it has no real power unit except BG which are really good, but not a top shelf elite unit (to deal with other true elites).

It lacks shooting to deal with real threats (what could this list do to another DE list with plenty of terror models?).  My NG list would have some fun with it, since the two giants, 12 PD of magic, and 12 fanatics would have plenty of targets.  Add in the multiple BT and its a good game.

As has been said, this list isn't going anywhere in terms of GT or anything.  Nice to see something different though.

Mathi:  Lets not jump to conclusions.  I never implied anything about my own abilities, I pointed out that the list was flawed and one dimensional.

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Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2009, 11:40:30 PM »
It is tempting given the cheap troops, but won't work significantly better than any other all infantry list, except that it has no real power unit except BG which are really good, but not a top shelf elite unit (to deal with other true elites).

Actually, the executioners are the most deadly unit, once you put the ASF BSB with them and give them an extra attack from the cauldron. That will kill anything, up to and including dragons and greater demons.

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Offline McKnight

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2009, 11:47:20 PM »
It is tempting given the cheap troops, but won't work significantly better than any other all infantry list, except that it has no real power unit except BG which are really good, but not a top shelf elite unit (to deal with other true elites).

Actually, the executioners are the most deadly unit, once you put the ASF BSB with them and give them an extra attack from the cauldron. That will kill anything, up to and including dragons and greater demons.



Wouldnt that just be High elven sword masters with an additional Strenght?  :laugh:
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Offline Marwynn

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2009, 11:51:25 PM »
Well no, Sword Masters don't have Killing Blow anymore.

The Suicide Elves concept isn't about a balanced army. It isn't a hardcore WAAC list for sure. It has a simple concept about flooding the enemy with elves, with enough shooting to take care of some threats.

Besides even some WAAC lists can't beat all other armies out there. I think the success of the SE is due to Woodland Animal's generalship moreso than the list.

Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2009, 11:58:14 PM »
Appreciate not Empire related but touching on what PhillyTjust said fanatics would have a field day with this army. I can just picture the OnGplayer looking gleefully on:

I have how many T3 targets?  :icon_twisted:
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Offline Elden

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2009, 12:02:18 AM »
I toyed with the idea of a refused flank myself. But we are forgetting one thing. If we are fielding a combined arms Empire vs such an army, we will have LESS units to plonk down than he does. In a deployment phase, when he can plonk down 11 to 12 units. You are going to need to plonk down more than that before he puts down his last (and most powerful units).

I don't see that happening. Because he has so many units. He would probably end up putting down his last units after you do. (If you guys deploy based on a each one places one unit basis). Once this happens, your refused flank faces his weaker units. And your strong flank will face his toughess units.

He doesn't need tons of heroes. He is taking less than 4. His lord general was doing so badly (because it was a natural target) that he swopped it for a hero (master). The army really is based on TVI where by killing any unit, even the executioner unit doesn't mean end of the game for him. You could focus on one unit, then his cauldron will place a 5+ ward save on that unit. And he will then flank you can destroy you with all his rest. Read his battle reports. A lot of players thought his executioners were an easy target and charged them. But with cauldron and banner, its his strongest unit and it has faced off and killed very powerful units before.

About the cauldron. Only flyers would be able to get close, and normal weaker flyers might not be able to do the job because the cauldron is protected by a hero level hag. For us, it would be our pegasus captain. But note, the cauldron has terror. So, we have to pass that first before we try and charge it. Then our captain has to beat his hag on a one to one fight.

Through all his battle reports, he has rarely lost his cauldron. He has so many threats on the table the opponent doesn't have time to focus on his cauldron. He usually keeps his cauldron behind some terrain so that it still gives its power to the troops while its hard to charge it.

He has so much units he can field weaker ones in front of his stronger ones. His witch elves and spears are leading the charge with his black guard and executioners behind. So he has a missile screen. He faced a bret army with knights and all wizards plus the player had comet of cassandora, which he couldn't block! He still won that army.

I don't know about it being unfluffy. Its a really strong list, but in a fluffy way because he takes zero dispel scrolls, has like just 2 dispel dice for defense, and not a lot of shooting. and zero big monsters. How do you call such a list bent? Most people looking at it first hand would think they are facing a weak list, one which is weak for the sake of being "fluffy". But it works, in an extremely efficient way because it excels at one thing, killing!

I want to counter this type of army without having to take 4 mortars and 2 helstorms. Because we know how well that is going to fare against all other armies.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 12:11:38 AM by Elden »

Offline Finlay

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2009, 01:04:03 AM »
you don't know what "fluffy" means. It is unfluffy because there are not very many elves, so sacrificing them is stupid, and means they would just die out (even quicker than they are doing now)

*edited because I made the most useless post ever*
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Offline Elden

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Re: How does Empire counter suicide elves?
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2009, 01:22:24 AM »
You have to read the fluff for dark elves. I have their army book (I collect these!). Dark elves fear theri generals more than anything else, and their generals are absolutely mercilous and have no qualms about sacrificing tons of troops (even dark elves) as long as they get what they want.

There is a darf elf champion Kouran who is leader of the black guard. It was written in his fluff that he once sacrificed half of his own troops and he didn't even blink.  So, the idea behind a bunch of blood crazed dark elves charging forward is not really so at odds with their fluff. After all, they worship Khaine, god of murder, so they delight in getting in close and bloody!  :-)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 01:24:37 AM by Elden »