Topic: The new knights... and the current ones?

[Irisado]

I thought the 6th ed knights came out in 2000? I'm sure they were, that's when the 6th ed Empire book was published, showcasing them. So yeah, 9 years old isn't 10, but it's close enough that his point stands. They're old.

Okay, that is longer ago than I thought it was, as I still feel like it should be 2004 in my mind not 2009.  Thank you for the correction.

That said, I don't don't feel that they look that old, so I don't understand why so many people don't like them.

Dannyfave: You wrongly attributed your response to Sig, when I was the one talking about the metal Knights, and let me assure you, they were truly evil to put together.  Yes, I was very young at the time, so that colours my view, but my dad took over and he has always been an excellent model maker and even he had major problems with them.

Perhaps the casting was improved later on, but in the early 1990s, they truly were ghastly to assemble.

On the subject of the Grand Masters, now they still are good models.  For a start they were cast whole, which was, and still is, a great advantage for them over the regular metal Knights, and they did look much more impressive (as they should) than the ordinary Knight models.

I will say that the metal Knights of the White Wolf still look better than their plastic counter parts in my view, however, they were no less difficult to assemble than the other metal Knights in two halves.

[Dannyfave]

Yeah the few that I have put together recently didn't give me much of a problem whatsoever.

[offroadfury88]

hmmm no? they still suck. I dont see how you can except them when so many awesomely detailed plastic cavalry models have come out for every other army, the cold one knights, knights of Chaos, Marauders the Pistoliers/Outriders etc... 

[innerwolf]

For me the problems with the knights are:
- Extremely long,out-of-proportion legs. If they dismounted from their horses they would stand a good head taller than the infantry. It make the horses look even smaller
-Goofy looking helemts.
-General lack of detail.
But the real issue are the horses. Again, poorly detailed, static and a bit on the small side. They are obviously dated.

[MrDWhitey]

The current edition Knight's Horses killed my parents.

This is why I dislike them.

I was raised in the wild by Outrider horses.

[Mathi Alfblut]

So McKnight, sounds like your group is a bit like gits about character. I would have you face the wrong side of my viking axe if you claimed your puny dagger was infact a greatsword when I crashed into the character, and your model would be in grave danger, I tell you.

You tell if a model is armed with an obvious weapon or other item that will be there.
If he gots a helm and you make it be helm of the Skavenslayer and don´t tell me, yes fine, the dude had a helmet. But if he was bareheaded and did not even have freaking helm hanging on his back, you might be in trouble. Just telling yaa....
No, you would not need to tell me it was the helm of the skaven slayer, but you´d better explain he has a helmet somewhere.

If it is not obvious the fellow is packing a greatweapon or a bow, and is supposed to have those, you ANNOUNCE that to your opponent before the game or you are a git.
If he got a hand weapon of some kind and you gave him a magical sword or whatever, no problem, as long as it counts as a hand weapon in the weapon rules. Now, if you would say the dude suddenly packs the Dragonbow and ain´t even got an arrowhead on him, boy... Don´t play with me.

Gem, parcels, magical shoelaces, whatever, sure, no need to tell cause they could be hidden everywhere, but when it comes to big stuff. If your opponent don´t have visible armour, at least say he is supposed to have armour. If he has a greatweapon and it is not represented on the model, please be so kind and tell me.

[Irisado]

hmmm no? they still suck. I dont see how you can except them when so many awesomely detailed plastic cavalry models have come out for every other army, the cold one knights, knights of Chaos, Marauders the Pistoliers/Outriders etc... 

You have a valid point when it comes to the Cold One Knights I grant you, but I don't think that the Pistoliers/Outriders are very good at all.  I feel that they look rather out of proportion, and look more like militia that properly trained soldiers (mind you that can be said of just about any seventh edition plastic model in the Empire army, they are just terrible in my opinion).

I would rather accept the Knights that we currently have, rather than risk GW giving us yet more atrocious Empire plastics.  If they were to produce high quality Knights, then fair enough, but judging by the seventh edition models that they have released in plastic up until now, I think that the results would be very unappealing.

[Shadowlord]

I would rather accept the Knights that we currently have, rather than risk GW giving us yet more atrocious Empire plastics. 

If they did, would the knights you own suddely vanish, melt/catch fire, or something?

[Irisado]

If they did, would the knights you own suddely vanish, melt/catch fire, or something?

Only if GW have invented door to door sales assistants who come equipped with their own Balrog costume with a flaming whip special feature.

I suppose this would be one way GW could get people to buy yet more Lord of the Rings models.....

[Shadowlord]

Only if GW have invented door to door sales assistants who come equipped with their own Balrog costume with a flaming whip special feature.

Then why do you even bother if your minis are unaffected by new knights?

[Irisado]

Then why do you even bother if your minis are unaffected by new knights?

I think you missed the humour behind my statement.

To answer your question though, if the new models were good then I might be tempted to buy them, but I just don't think that they will be, and I am increasingly fed up with GW creating miniatures, only to decide that 'well actually they weren't really that good, or this, this and that was missing, so let's do them again'.  I just don't think it's right in principal to go around doing this sort of thing on such a regular basis and expect every customer to just acquiesce to GW's every whim.

When I was younger, I used to buy all the new models, but the older I get, the less trusting I become when it comes to GW, so I hope you'll forgive me if I am very underwhelmed by the clamouring for new Knight models, when the chances are, they will end up looking like those ghastly seventh edition plastics that we have already been subjected to.

[innerwolf]

Only if GW have invented door to door sales assistants who come equipped with their own Balrog costume with a flaming whip special feature.

I suppose this would be one way GW could get people to buy yet more Lord of the Rings models.....

You whimp, would you be intimidated by that? I keep my grey cloak and wig just in case. Grab a mop stick and remember him he shall not pass! 

[Shadowlord]

I think you missed the humour behind my statement.

No. I was hoping to piss you off and best you like I usually do when I have a winning argument. That's all.

When I was younger, I used to buy all the new models, but the older I get, the less trusting I become when it comes to GW, so I hope you'll forgive me if I am very underwhelmed by the clamouring for new Knight models, when the chances are, they will end up looking like those ghastly seventh edition plastics that we have already been subjected to.

Except your opinion is just one of so many. Do not make the mistake that this forum is the main consumers of Empire models.

Most of them are like you say, younger folks much like you once were.

[Dihenydd]

I'm pondering pimping up my knight horses with some weapons of their own and removing the lance from the knight altogether.  If I can get them rearing up but holding an axe in each forehoof then I can claim WYSIWYG that the horses get two attacks and the knight is just using a dagger.

Like everyone else, my knights are only to give the horse an armour save as my horse does 3x the wounds as the knight.

Horses with two attacks is just super scary.

[Nicholas Bies]

I'm pondering pimping up my knight horses with some weapons of their own and removing the lance from the knight altogether.  If I can get them rearing up but holding an axe in each forehoof then I can claim WYSIWYG that the horses get two attacks and the knight is just using a dagger.

Like everyone else, my knights are only to give the horse an armour save as my horse does 3x the wounds as the knight.

Horses with two attacks is just super scary.

See I think you do the same thing as me which is attack with the Knights first. Today I did that and got no wounds while the horses got 1 kill (against chaos knights so pretty good for a horse).

Another charge (against warriors) and I did the horses 1st with no hits then the Knights and got 3 kills!

It's like calling an artillery die a misfire die- it's jinkzing yourself!

[McKnight]

So McKnight, sounds like your group is a bit like gits about character. I would have you face the wrong side of my viking axe if you claimed your puny dagger was infact a greatsword when I crashed into the character, and your model would be in grave danger, I tell you.

You tell if a model is armed with an obvious weapon or other item that will be there.
If he gots a helm and you make it be helm of the Skavenslayer and don´t tell me, yes fine, the dude had a helmet. But if he was bareheaded and did not even have freaking helm hanging on his back, you might be in trouble. Just telling yaa....
No, you would not need to tell me it was the helm of the skaven slayer, but you´d better explain he has a helmet somewhere.

If it is not obvious the fellow is packing a greatweapon or a bow, and is supposed to have those, you ANNOUNCE that to your opponent before the game or you are a git.
If he got a hand weapon of some kind and you gave him a magical sword or whatever, no problem, as long as it counts as a hand weapon in the weapon rules. Now, if you would say the dude suddenly packs the Dragonbow and ain´t even got an arrowhead on him, boy... Don´t play with me.

Gem, parcels, magical shoelaces, whatever, sure, no need to tell cause they could be hidden everywhere, but when it comes to big stuff. If your opponent don´t have visible armour, at least say he is supposed to have armour. If he has a greatweapon and it is not represented on the model, please be so kind and tell me.

Why?

Skaven night runner models clearly have as much armour as Clan rats do but still they have none, ruleswise.

If I used a bright wizard model but he knew the lore of heavens would you not like that either?
Again with the bright wizard, if the model was armed with the sword of ruin, he would indeed have the sword all of the time in your mind?... or be forced to cast that spell each and every turn?...

If you put a character inside a unit of 5+ rank and file models you cannot target him. What makes you think you can see his equipment then?

I will only tell the armoursave value if someone attacks my character and gets to wound him.

I started out playing like you do Mathi and it was very restrictive.. Proxying has made my life easier... and more economically sustainable. Not everyone has the cash to buy 5 heroes of the empire boxes and make various heroes to serve as your eyecandy. Not all use magnets or similar to change weapons. We get by with what we have

Of course i put him on a horse if he is on one!

[Mathi Alfblut]

Still, there is a bloody pig difference between a greatsword and a dagger, for example. When I see only a dagger and nothing else, I will assume the model only have a hand weapon. Items that are pretty small, fine. Items that are to big, not fine.

I have NOTHING against proxying, but you better tell me what you are proxying and what he carries visually. My life is made easier by not having to remember what everything is supposed to represent, and that stuff is pretty in line with the rules. I would NEVER field a shield and sword hero as a fellow with an huge axe fluffwise. That just feels silly and removes the charm from the game. As for heroes and eyecandy, yeah right!
I don´t have all that money to buy every hero, but I make them if I need to! Plastic models are great for that, you know.

If you see my priest with a shield and a hammer, you can be dead sure he IS packing a shield and a handweapon at least, though wether the handweapon is magical or not is a different story. But I sure as hell would never dream of giving him a great weapon secretly and that laugh when I reveal it to my perplexed opponent.

[Irisado]

No. I was hoping to piss you off and best you like I usually do when I have a winning argument. That's all.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't have enough recent experience with the Empire to get particularly wound up about anything that others say  .

As for having a winning argument, I can't possibly comment on that, so I will leave that for other members of this forum to decide.  Still, your personal text and signature are quite informative, but given that I don't know you very well, I shall leave it at that  .

Except your opinion is just one of so many. Do not make the mistake that this forum is the main consumers of Empire models.

Oh, there is no way that this forum represents the common denominator when it comes to consumers of GW's products  .

That said, there have been a lot of opinions expressed on the internet where players have complained about the appearance and style of the seventh edition Empire plastics, so I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't like them.

If GW were to make decent new plastic Knights, then I would be all for it, but what I am saying is that their recent form when it comes to designing Empire plastics suggests that they will not be very good models, so I feel that it's not worth making new figures unless they really are going to be an improvement on that which is already available.

 

[Toro_Blanco]

I am pretty understanding with my opponents, and understand that sometimes you want to try something out and may not have the model representing it accurately; in such a case, I just need to be told up front what you have that may not be visible.  I'm reasonable about it...though personally, I try to make sure my figures are WYSIWYG, mostly for fluff (I want them to look like what they are).

I only have one unit that defies this: my empire general.  I was not aware there was a rule against having both a lance and a magical hand weapon, so my General has a lance in one arm and a standard in the other (I was modeling him to look cool).  So, now I find myself with a single non WYSIWYG piece, but I do explain when I field him that no, he is not carrying a standard (or a lance, grumble), and instead has a hand weapon and shield, or whatever.

However, whether its magical or not is my business until we're in combat.  In such events, I keep a written army list handy so my opponent can't cry foul (my army list also notes the lore my wizard uses, for similar reasons).

EDIT: I'm with those who are leery of new empire knights; I think the old ones are a bit dated and boring, but I do -not- want new knights that resemble the new state troops.  The new greatswords aren't bad (I preferred the metal ones, but the flexibility of plastic earns them some bonus points), but it's more evidence that I don't think 7th edition GW knights will be any good.  At least wait until I buy up a few boxes in case they do suck, before they release new ones.

[Dihenydd]

I think most of the W-E players in particular and Empire players in general would very open to the idea of new knights.  The difference of opinion arises when we look at the general body of work from GW recently.

The new plastic design system allows for a lot of very funky design and GW have been experimenting with these new tricks.  So we can expect to have a lot of clutter on the knights so 'to make them look cool' or some nonsense.  Lots of skulls, glyphs, scrolls, and other 'gothic' bits hanging from them.

But what most of the W-E crowd are really saying is "keep our current knights, just give us better horse heads and some more variety in poses for both the knights and the horses.  Some new armoured heads etc"  So expect to be disappointed in the new knights being of different stature, size and theme.  Oh, and they won't fit with the old ones very well.

But at least they will be new!

[Shadowlord]

I think most of the W-E players in particular and Empire players in general would very open to the idea of new knights. 

As with most internet whine, people mistake a vocal few to be this norm of the forum.

I'll bet if all members could vote, the majority would still like the new ones.

Grognards don't rule, and never will.

[offroadfury88]

Yeah and I bet a majority will vote for new knights!

[vesrian]

That said, there have been a lot of opinions expressed on the internet where players have complained about the appearance and style of the seventh edition Empire plastics, so I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't like them.

You're not. I don't like them either. Maybe we could form a support group: "7th ed. Empire plastics haters anonymous"

I also agree with your point about not redoing the knights unless they'll look good. While it's true that the older models won't magically disappear if GW puts out crappy looking new knights, we will be stuck with crappy looking new knights and no prospects of getting decent knights for many years. There's a potential to make a plastic kit that works with the theme of the different knightly orders of the empire. It could have parts to make knights from a variety of different orders and i think it would work really well and add a tremendous amount of character to the army. But based on the current empire stuff, I'm not sure GW is a point where they could/would do that. I'd rather they wait and do something that looks great instead of putting out something in line with the current plastics.
EDIT: Of course that view is coloured by my dislike of some of the current plastics.

[Shadowlord]

Here is hoping for lots of Cherubs and skulls...

[patsy02]

You're not. I don't like them either. Maybe we could form a support group: "7th ed. Empire plastics haters anonymous"

Fuck, I'll make my name public any day!
Edit: I can't bowdlerize. I just can't.