Warhammer-Empire.com
The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: Zak on December 02, 2014, 04:29:11 AM
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Re: End Times: Skaven
So I recieved some information from a close friend of mine recently regarding the Skaven Release for the End-Times. Just to add some more clarity on the source...the information comes from marketing materials which have been developed/are being developed for the sales side of the house. Can't provide too much more info on that as I do not want to get my friend in hot water. I have known him since college and he would have no reason to lie to me. So this is the rundown he gave me:
Skaven background will focus on an invasion of Lustria and inlcude a lot of information on Lizardmen and “the plan” as well. While the book will be Skaven focused, it will still have a heavy Lizardmen flavor as the main plot lines focus around them. It will also discuss the “Great Ascendancy” which will include the horned rat and the rise of the Skaven to the surface to enslave all of mankind (or attempt to). The true roots of Skaven will also be discussed. It will also cover Skaven happenings around the warhammer world, including the Dwarfs, the Chaos Invasion and the return of Nagash and how the rats fit into the whole picture. The Skaven are not too keen on the whole end of times motif for the obvious negative effects it will have on their survival...so as usual they plot and scheme to ensure that their best interests are served in the end with others doing their dirty work. Not to play spoiler, but it sounds as though they will play a pivotal role in undoing the nefarious plans of the dark powers.
There will be new models accompanying the release to include:
New Vermin Lord (Horned Rat) BIG Kit....
Lord Skrolk
Lord Nurglitch
Grey Seer Thanquol and Bone Ripper
Grey Seer on Foot
Rat Ogres
Dual kit with Poisoned Wind Globadiers and Plague Censer Bearers
I will say that I was hesitant to post this at all as there seems to be a bit of aggression at times within these forums. However I love some Skaven and I do follow these forums closely and felt that I should share. Take it for what you will…
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End Times: Skaven
Hi Everyone.
So with Khaine out now (though mine's still in the mail), I thought we could start talking about the next book and maybe move away from that monster 70+ page thread. Please delete this one if it's not appropriate =)
As far as I know these are the skaven rumors that we've heard already:
•It seems to be accepted that the next book is End Times: Skaven though I guess this is still very much a rumor
•We've heard before (I think it was Hastings and/or Arthurius11) talking about a new Grey Seer Thanquol and new Vermin Lord models.
•Faeit said something about the schedule being accelerated and the next book coming out after Blood angels (which is these next couple of weeks). If true then we could still see it in December or early Jan. It's strange that we haven't heard any more details yet.
•People seem to expect Lizardmen to be included but I haven't seen anything more concrete than wish listing so far.
Sorry if you were expecting new info. I don't have any. I just wanted to start the discussion and do a bit of a summary of what we know so far.
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The true roots of Skaven will also be discussed.
Once upon a time, there was a town called Kavzar...
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That's very interesting news indeed! :::cheers:::
I play neither Skaven (blech :eusa_sick:) or lizardmen armies but the vermin will be an interesting read while the lizardmen parts make me really happy for their fans. I really felt sorry for lizardmen players since they were getting almost no mention but now they can finally get the attention they deserve. :smile2:
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Damn, I just sold my skaven army :icon_razz: I love skaven fluff though, this can be awesome :-D
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Maybe it will turn out that the Skaven where the misunderstood good guys all along that the Old Ones created to combat Chaos and Karl Franz will recognise them as the true Empire? :dry:
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Maybe it will turn out that the Skaven where the misunderstood good guys all along that the Old Ones created to combat Chaos and Karl Franz will recognise them as the true Empire? :dry:
::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic::
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Maybe they'll kill Nagash again.
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I'm sure they could if they built a Doomwheel made out of Fellblades.
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Re: End Times: Skaven
Quote Originally Posted by Azazyll View Post
Shouldn't we also get a new Skaven army book with minis?
Beastmen didn't get a new book. And the next armybook I'm aware of is Bretonia..... Darno ( warseer.com) he can be a jack-butt but pretty reliable rumor wise :::cheers:::
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That would be a huge release for Skaven indeed! A EoT book, AB, and new models!
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That would be a huge release for Skaven indeed! A EoT book, AB, and new models!
I hope their books won't be full of CHEESE he he he he. :biggriin:
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Full of plot holes big enough for a rat-man to crawl through!
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Skaven are known to be cheese eating surrender monkey's :dry: :dry: plus I hate them :icon_evil: :icon_evil:
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Skaven are known to be cheese eating surrender monkey's :dry: :dry: plus I hate them :icon_evil: :icon_evil:
Don't worry. I'm sure that the rate of attrition among their ranks will go through the roof. :-P
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We can always count on Thanquol to defeat the Skaven meance for us. Truly he is mankinds greatest ally in this struggle.
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Or Karl Franz, superstar will obliterate them with his eye vision.
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I LOVE SKAVEN, theme wise - but I would never play them.
A good skaven army of 2000+ points would have 200+ rat men.
And so many special rules... poison wind, censers, wheels of doom.
Too many dudes to paint (hope you like brown)
+ Games take tooooo long to play
Nonetheless;
I am glad the rat men found the lizard men.
I wish them many years of wedded bliss.
I wish them many years of hot Jungle Love.
Snakes (literally) eat rats for breakfast? How is this a fair fight?
Maybe both races will wipe each other out.
Sqeeek sqeek, Hiss hiss.
Oh what a relief it issssssss.
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Don't worry. I'm sure that the rat of attrition among their ranks will go through the roof. :-P
FTFY.
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Skaven are known to be cheese eating surrender monkey's :dry: :dry: plus I hate them :icon_evil: :icon_evil:
I don't know, they always seemed to be nazi race supremacists to m-wait a minute...
Maybe it will turn out that the Skaven where the misunderstood good guys all along that the Old Ones created to combat Chaos and Karl Franz will recognise them as the true Empire? :dry:
An empire supported by a god-like emperor...
Skaven are known to be cheese eating surrender monkey's :dry: :dry: plus I hate them :icon_evil: :icon_evil:
Don't worry. I'm sure that the rate of attrition among their ranks will go through the roof. :-P
Mass attrition rate by using swarm tactics and guns...
Imperial guard faction for warhammer fantasy confirmed!!
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Re: End Times: Skaven
Quote Originally Posted by tneva82 View Post
4th end times book late christmas/early january, brets on february/march. Gets end times off the plate and brets still come early 2015 as rumoured.
There is a fifth ET book coming warseer.com
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this actually sounds very exciting!
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So do we know if this Bret book will be an EoT book or AB?
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This sounds pretty cool. I like the ratmens lore. Never going to collect them. Too much Brown.
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So do we know if this Bret book will be an EoT book or AB?
Interested to know that too, though it seems highly unlikely they'd be getting an army book with everything that is going down.
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There is enough going on in Bretonnia to easily fill a EoT book or spice up an armybook, to wit:
1. King Gilles is leading Bretonnia and wants to crusade against all evils.
2. Bretonnia has just gotten over a brutal civil war where several dukes had taken up arms with Mallobaude.
3. Bordeleaux has been conquered by chaos.
4. The lands of Quenelles are devastated and ridden with plague.
5. The elves have all moved to Athel Loren with the dark elves hunting nearby Bretonnians for sport.
6. The Lady of the lake's identity as Lileath and using Bretonnian knight spirits to bodyguard her new world.
Definitely alot of plots to play with for either book.
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Well, either way I think we'll have our answer as to if they will be joining the Empire. I seriously doubt that GW would release a specific Bret book (EoT or AB) and then completely abandon the army they just invested in.
Of course, the Wood Elves haven't had their book very long...
I'm really think that I'm starting to see the edges of the restart button coming more and more into focus here.
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I haven't read the books or all the messages on here.
Why exactly do all the elves live in Athel Loren and not in Ulthuan?
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Because Ulthuan is Atlantis...
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Because Ulthuan is Atlantis...
Nicely put. :smile2:
Should have seen it coming really, what with high elves being based off Greeks and Atlantaens. Also, I wonder if future fluff will hint that the mer-people moved into it?
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Because Ulthuan is Atlantis...
Nicely put. :smile2:
Should have seen it coming really, what with high elves being based off Greeks and Atlantaens. Also, I wonder if future fluff will hint that the mer-people moved into it?
Lol! Yup. The Lizardmen are getting web-feet.
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I haven't read the books or all the messages on here.
Why exactly do all the elves live in Athel Loren and not in Ulthuan?
Basically put, Tyrion became a bad guy, Malekith became a good guy, and Teclis un-made the Vortex that was holding Ulthuan afloat. The Everqueen transported all elf survivors to the woods.
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and now they live happily ever after and everyone get's along just fine. right?
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5. The elves have all moved to Athel Loren with the dark elves hunting nearby Bretonnians for sport.
The Bretonnians probably aren't too happy about it.
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They're all in shock. One day soon an elf will sit up and "Wait. WHERE THE HELL ARE WE!!!" *Push the restart button here.*
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Maybe that's why they'll come join us and the Dwarves! Good honest honour and steel, none of this faery treachery!
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I hope it turns out that Thanquol is the true Phoenix King. Then the elves will fight for Skaven. Makes as much sense as Malekith being the true heir and the High Elves and Dark Elves fighting together...
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It will also turn out that he is the true reincarnation of Sigmar rather than Valten.
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Maybe that's why they'll come join us and the Dwarves! Good honest honour and steel, none of this faery treachery!
I would rather we all stay seperate but if we do combine I wouldn't mind if they use the same system they used with the elves.
King Gilles: Bretonnians and Empire with one or two dwarves units.
Emperor Karl Franz: Empire with a good portion of dwarves and Bretonnians.
Dwarf high king: Dwarves and Empire with one or two Bretonnian units.
Or something like that.
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I hope it turns out that Thanquol is the true Phoenix King.
It will also turn out that he is the true reincarnation of Sigmar rather than Valten.
Very close, but no cigar: it is Bonecrusher.
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I do wonder what ever became of Lurk from Skaven Slayer. Did Black Library just kill him?
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Hard to say about what happened to Lurk, however, I think he might be in Gotrek and Felix's novel "The city of the Damned". For one of the main antagonist is a monstrous skaven, easily the size of a rat ogre, and is covered in rags and bandages. He leads a large force of similarly ragged skaven for the daemon Belakor. He, along with his minions are cursed by the city and are eternally bound to Belakor. The brutish skaven is half mad and wants to die and be released from Belakor, you would too if every time you died your consciousness was ripped out of you and a version of you was taken from the past to act as a new vessel. Anyway, in his broken-minded phrases he keeps repeating his name, Hurlk.
Sounds alot like Lurk to me but that's just my thoughts about it. :smile2:
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It was mentioned somewhere that we find out the true origin of Skaven.
As in pre-Kavzar?
This tie to Belakor - when did this happen? What is Belakor's origin story? Is there a potential connection here?
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I truly doubt there's a connection to Belakor when concerning the Skaven. He was the comet that devastated Mordheim, banished by the chaos gods. He just enslaved the mutants and skaven that were in the city to his will to aid in his escape. The event happened way after Kavzar.
My guess about the Skaven's origin is that their creator, the horned rat, is some spawn of nurgle's. They have an abundance of similarities and the mixture of some humans being found to worship the horned rat (my jaw dropped when I saw that fact) and the signs of humans turning into skaven, reason of their moniker "rat-kin", make me believe when the horned rat came into being he used a fragment of nurgle's power to Infest early humans when the world was overwhelmed by a warp storm. The warp storm that preceded the coming of chaos where only the elves and dwarves could face them, with humans as only cave dwelling barbarians the horned rat probably saw an opportunity to make his own worshippers.
That's just my theory though. :smile2:
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Hard to say about what happened to Lurk, however, I think he might be in Gotrek and Felix's novel "The city of the Damned". For one of the main antagonist is a monstrous skaven, easily the size of a rat ogre, and is covered in rags and bandages. He leads a large force of similarly ragged skaven for the daemon Belakor. He, along with his minions are cursed by the city and are eternally bound to Belakor. The brutish skaven is half mad and wants to die and be released from Belakor, you would too if every time you died your consciousness was ripped out of you and a version of you was taken from the past to act as a new vessel. Anyway, in his broken-minded phrases he keeps repeating his name, Hurlk.
Sounds alot like Lurk to me but that's just my thoughts about it. :smile2:
A shame if they just discarded Lurk. He had some potential to become a great Skaven leader.
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A shame if they just discarded Lurk. He had some potential to become a great Skaven leader.
That's probably why they killed him off. :wink:
Though as I said, I only think that might be Lurk. He could be out there somewhere, plotting revenge...
...or he turned into a chaos spawn from all those mutations. :-P
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I LOVE SKAVEN, theme wise - but I would never play them.
A good skaven army of 2000+ points would have 200+ rat men.
And so many special rules... poison wind, censers, wheels of doom.
Too many dudes to paint (hope you like brown)
Actually Skaven is maybe the fastest army to paint, I was able to learn a wash painting technique through miniwargaming that allowed me to paint 20-30 decent looking ratmen in 1-2 hours with detail on eyes/bits and highlighting. They are a lot more fun to paint than 50 state troopers imo, though ofc I probably just havent found a good technique yet for empire.
+ Games take tooooo long to play
Oh yes, flipp through that army book boy! And you will wake up in the night screaming from trauma after rolling 1's :biggriin:
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I have found the 1s do not appear as often as one would like.
But they appear an awful lot on Knight armour saves,
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:dry: yes they do
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5. The elves have all moved to Athel Loren with the dark elves hunting nearby Bretonnians for sport.
The Bretonnians probably aren't too happy about it.
Burn the forest I say!
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5. The elves have all moved to Athel Loren with the dark elves hunting nearby Bretonnians for sport.
The Bretonnians probably aren't too happy about it.
Burn the forest I say!
Indeed, a knight on the Bretonnian round table suggested the same thing. He said they should put their fire arrows to work and turn the remainder of the forest into trebuchet materials. It's rather difficult not to agree with him. :wink:
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Speaking of Estalia and Tilea... how do you pronounce this?
Is it TIE-Leah? Est-Ah-Leah?
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No idea --- I usually go with TIL-ee-ah and E-stahl-ya but could be completely wrong.
Probably doesn't matter now that they're gone -- Probably go with whatever the Skaven rename them :ph34r:
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Stilton and Tintern?
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Speaking of Estalia and Tilea... how do you pronounce this?
Is it TIE-Leah? Est-Ah-Leah?
No after I get done conquering them they will be called "New Talabecland!"
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No after I get done conquering them they will be called "New Talabecland!"
You're just copying the Dutch. :dry:
https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/
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The Skaven probably will name them Poxdread(Tilea) and Screechlair (Estalia) or something sinister like that.
If our glorious Empire re-conquers them then we should rename them Uous (Tilea), pronounced u-o-us, and Bhegtime (Estalia). :biggriin:
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The Skaven probably will name them Poxdread(Tilea) and Screechlair (Estalia) or something sinister like that.
If our glorious Empire re-conquers them then we should rename them Uous (Tilea), pronounced u-o-us, and Bhegtime (Estalia). :biggriin:
exactly :closed-eyes:
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The Skaven probably will name them Poxdread(Tilea) and Screechlair (Estalia) or something sinister like that.
If our glorious Empire re-conquers them then we should rename them Uous (Tilea), pronounced u-o-us, and Bhegtime (Estalia). :biggriin:
Glorious conquest incoming. :biggriin:
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Listen, for I have word from the oracle birdy.
Next ET book is focussing on Skaven, release on 10th of January (advance order up on the 2nd). Thanquol and Boneripper will be a big kit, a new Vermin Lord, some kind of new unit (no details here sadly) and two clampack characters.
How big is the new Boneripper? O_O
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Maybe Boneripper got the Beasts wind, haha.
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Listen, for I have word from the oracle birdy.
Next ET book is focussing on Skaven, release on 10th of January (advance order up on the 2nd). Thanquol and Boneripper will be a big kit, a new Vermin Lord, some kind of new unit (no details here sadly) and two clampack characters.
How big is the new Boneripper? O_O
Maybe Thanquol will think any new boneripper he gets will be sabotaged by the treacherous backstabbers in Skavenblight (who no doubt already sabotaged his previous bonerippers, for how else could they always find themselves destroyed? Certainly not due to Thanquol's flawless plans.). So in response, Thanquol will have all the previous bonerippers stitched together.
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Perfect opportunity for an Estalian Reconquista.
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So in response, Thanquol will have all the previous bonerippers stitched together.
Oh my goodness... I hope not. ::heretic::
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So in response, Thanquol will have all the previous bonerippers stitched together.
Oh my goodness... I hope not. ::heretic::
You've got to admit it would fit his theme and it would certainly draw the eye. Just more in a "Mother of heaven what the hell is that?!" kind of way than in a "Hey neat model!" kind of way. :-P
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So in response, Thanquol will have all the previous bonerippers stitched together.
Oh my goodness... I hope not. ::heretic::
You've got to admit it would fit his theme and it would certainly draw the eye. Just more in a "Mother of heaven what the hell is that?!" kind of way than in a "Hey neat model!" kind of way. :-P
Given how f*** up the Hellpit Abomination looks, that'd be pretty awesome. Based Blanche could sketch the concept art. Anyway I hope that ET: Skaven will put the End Times back on tracks once again. Here's hoping!
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Given how f*** up the Hellpit Abomination looks, that'd be pretty awesome. Based Blanche could sketch the concept art.
If anyone could do It justice then it would be him, Blanche's artwork really captures the horror of the warhammer world but also shows how awesome it is as well.
Anyway I hope that ET: Skaven will put the End Times baclk on tracks once again. Here's hoping!
Here's hoping. :::cheers:::
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Blanche has zero talent.
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Eh, he's got one style that works for some armies but really fails for others. He does Daemons very well, for example, and can do pretty interesting things with certain units scattered across other armies, but for the most part he's a bit of a one-trick pony.
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I like Blanche but I don't like Blanche in everything. His best stuff is really his paintings but for some reason GW keeps using his drawings.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/A1Px%2B6kKjGL._SL1500_.jpg)
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I like Blanche but I don't like Blanche in everything. His best stuff is really his paintings but for some reason GW keeps using his drawings.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/A1Px%2B6kKjGL._SL1500_.jpg)
I agree, something's are fine but not for the majority :::cheers:::
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Darnok ( warseer.com)
Re: End Times: Skaven
Listen, for I have word from the oracle birdy.
Next ET book is focussing on Skaven, release on 10th of January (advance order up on the 2nd). Thanquol and Boneripper will be a big kit, a new Vermin Lord, some kind of new unit (no details here sadly) and two clampack characters.
who cares about nasty old rats anyway :dry:
oops
Re: End Times: Skaven
I have no info on the nature of this new unit yet. I also got a correction concerning the release date: it is a week later than I have posted originally. I have already corrected the OP.
:::cheers:::
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No doubt Dwarves, Night Goblins and Skaven will have to learn to love eachother to fight Chaos with the power of friendship.
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No doubt Dwarves, Night Goblins and Skaven will have to learn to love eachother to fight Chaos with the power of friendship.
And then, their high king dead upon the field of battle, the dwarves did tear their beards in grief and woe, for they were leaderless and without guidance.
Then did Skarsnik, fell leader of the goblin hordes, approach, and in full sight of all the dwarven hosts, did tear off his false chin and reveal the thick, dark beard beneath.
"Fear not, friends," he explained, "for I will lead you, for I am in fact half-dwarf myself! My mother's tribe were the most lovely and comely of goblins, but they were at the mercy of the fierce dwarf raiding parties, and I was sired by the leader of the greatest of dwarf conquerors. I am of the true blood of Grimnir, and of Mork (or possibly Gork)!"
Thus were the great forces of the dwarves and the countless tides of the goblins united under a single banner. And the Skaven, seeing the united force of their enemies and knowing that victory was now beyond their reach, did offer their alliance, for reasons of their own, which, being Skaven, they promptly forgot but would whisper about anyway for many generations to come.
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(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/giphy_zpscach3vys.gif) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/giphy_zpscach3vys.gif.html)
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No doubt Dwarves, Night Goblins and Skaven will have to learn to love eachother to fight Chaos with the power of friendship.
And then, their high king dead upon the field of battle, the dwarves did tear their beards in grief and woe, for they were leaderless and without guidance.
Then did Skarsnik, fell leader of the goblin hordes, approach, and in full sight of all the dwarven hosts, did tear off his false chin and reveal the thick, dark beard beneath.
"Fear not, friends," he explained, "for I will lead you, for I am in fact half-dwarf myself! My mother's tribe were the most lovely and comely of goblins, but they were at the mercy of the fierce dwarf raiding parties, and I was sired by the leader of the greatest of dwarf conquerors. I am of the true blood of Grimnir, and of Mork (or possibly Gork)!"
Thus were the great forces of the dwarves and the countless tides of the goblins united under a single banner. And the Skaven, seeing the united force of their enemies and knowing that victory was now beyond their reach, did offer their alliance, for reasons of their own, which, being Skaven, they promptly forgot but would whisper about anyway for many generations to come.
That sounds frightfully likely. Will Grimgor Ironhide finally reveal that he was never angry for real but he was rather an ambassador of peace that wanted to show everyone how meaningless war and hate is?
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Lol, yeah, he never actually intended to head-butt Archaeon, he was just going to pick up the talisman he dropped for him. Oops. Grimgor got embarrassed by everyone looking at him and left. So misunderstood.
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Perhaps Grimgor did want to give head to Archaon's butt, because he knew the latter's proclivities...
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And then, their high king dead upon the field of battle, the dwarves did tear their beards in grief and woe, for they were leaderless and without guidance.
Then did Skarsnik, fell leader of the goblin hordes, approach, and in full sight of all the dwarven hosts, did tear off his false chin and reveal the thick, dark beard beneath.
"Fear not, friends," he explained, "for I will lead you, for I am in fact half-dwarf myself! My mother's tribe were the most lovely and comely of goblins, but they were at the mercy of the fierce dwarf raiding parties, and I was sired by the leader of the greatest of dwarf conquerors. I am of the true blood of Grimnir, and of Mork (or possibly Gork)!"
Thus were the great forces of the dwarves and the countless tides of the goblins united under a single banner. And the Skaven, seeing the united force of their enemies and knowing that victory was now beyond their reach, did offer their alliance, for reasons of their own, which, being Skaven, they promptly forgot but would whisper about anyway for many generations to come.
:eusa_clap:
The problem is, the way things are going, you might as well be right...
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Speaking of Estalia and Tilea... how do you pronounce this?
Is it TIE-Leah? Est-Ah-Leah?
Wa-ste-land
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Speaking of Estalia and Tilea... how do you pronounce this?
Is it TIE-Leah? Est-Ah-Leah?
Wa-ste-land
:eusa_clap:
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Four Riders of the Apocalypse :
Death : Nagash
Pestilence : Glottkin
War : Khaine
Famine : Skaven
One Lord of the End Times needs a book...
And then we get 9th edition.....
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Four Riders of the Apocalypse :
Death : Nagash
Pestilence : Glottkin
War : Khaine
Famine : Skaven
One Lord of the End Times needs a book...
And then we get 9th edition.....
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/wfb-breaking-end-times-4-latest.html
Do we? It seems that at least one ET book will come after 9th.
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Well reading the rumour it's unclear if the 5th End times book is before or after "9th".
Although given that rumours I've heard 9th won't be 9th but wrahammer 2.0 1st edition 1000 years later steampunk in a new IP protected world, on round bases. or square bases, or new clip together bases or none of the above is true, end times carries on up to 8 books. Bretonnians early 2015, Chaos vs "Humans" in the starter, humans in quotes but chaos not. But other rumours say Empire vs Orcs with Empire knights in the box. specualtion but not rumour says ALL armies will definitely be combined with another army, whether it makes any sense or not. that the end times is based on the four horsemen, depite NO evidence for that whatsoever.
There's so much bull$hit and speculation amid rumours, GW have been managin gto keep the cards close with rumour and leaks. At this point, the only thing I'm prepared to believe is genuine is End Times: Horned Rat in January.
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Future world Warhammer sounds kinda terrible.
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Future world Warhammer sounds kinda terrible.
I agree, 40K is pretty bad ATM. :-P
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The question is, do we really need 40K the Fantasy version?
Maybe they'll morph into one game!!!! :unsure:
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It will be 40K: the Prequel.
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It will be 40K: the Prequel.
God, please no. :ph34r:
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Maybe I should just make my own setting and later turn that into a wargame?
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nah, the future of Warhammer looks exciting :closed-eyes:
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If you say so. :unsure:
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nah, the future of Warhammer looks exciting :closed-eyes:
(http://i.imgur.com/agJIP.gif)
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nah, the future of Warhammer looks exciting :closed-eyes:
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/giphy%201_zpsnztgxikg.gif) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/giphy%201_zpsnztgxikg.gif.html)
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Anybody post this yet?
(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10525626_10204756683733171_8107721907682712491_n.jpg?oh=67a5a92e43f5d63f73cd905b043269aa&oe=553D6230)
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Hmmm that mini looks to have promise...though the GW painters really need to lay off the purple
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That does look pretty cool.
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I'm not a fan of the giant horns.
Then again, I also hated Nagash's giant hat and I have never really liked any model with huge headgears or horns.
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I love the horns, because it's on a savage creature. Hated Nagash's hat.
This looks great, with a bit of work that would make an amazing Beastman giant creature. Horns are perfect.
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It does look rather nice, if you like that kind of thing.
However; with all these very large and specialized models coming out (in plastic, no less) one has to wonder . . . is there REALLY going to be an abandonment of the Warhammer brand look and feel? The whole notion of saying they need to make something that is copyrightable, or can't be duplicated by others, or isn't "historical" etc. - this End Times thing doesn't look like that. They are investing a lot of money in plastic miniatures that need to make many sales in order to recoup the costs.
I am coming increasingly around to the point of view that Fantasy is, when the End Times is over, going to look much the same as it does now.
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I think the copyright shift is more related to names than design. This model is apparently called a Warpseer rather than a Verminlord.
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This looks great, with a bit of work that would make an amazing Beastman giant creature. Horns are perfect.
Loose the middle set and a bone style paint job then I say yes. Purple is too much on this and the extra set is dumb, the old Verminlord and even the Forge World one I think were at two sets.
Unless of course to up sales GW decided the make the End Times hornier....
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Agreed on the purple. GW love to put clown paint on their minis.
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I love the horns, because it's on a savage creature. Hated Nagash's hat.
This looks great, with a bit of work that would make an amazing Beastman giant creature. Horns are perfect.
I thought the same thing myself. Could easily see that looking amazing in a beast army...
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I'll throw in another agreement. The purple is a bit much but the model itself looks pretty awesome.
I like the pose as well. Leaning against his weapon with a fierce look.
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It does look rather nice, if you like that kind of thing.
However; with all these very large and specialized models coming out (in plastic, no less) one has to wonder . . . is there REALLY going to be an abandonment of the Warhammer brand look and feel? The whole notion of saying they need to make something that is copyrightable, or can't be duplicated by others, or isn't "historical" etc. - this End Times thing doesn't look like that. They are investing a lot of money in plastic miniatures that need to make many sales in order to recoup the costs.
I am coming increasingly around to the point of view that Fantasy is, when the End Times is over, going to look much the same as it does now.
I hope this is the case.
Just for argument's sake, as far as the investment, they're making mostly big models and I could see those transitioning over to a new HeroHammer system while still phasing out regiments and then replacing them with new skirmish units. Not saying it will happen, but that's one possibility.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many Vermin Lords they'd have to sell in order to make them profitable? I've heard that it costs $50,000 to make a plastics mold, but don't quote me on that and then you've got labor and materials, etc. to factor in.
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I've only been following the EoT thing online, and haven't bought any books. But (sorry) Skaven are my first WFB love, and this thread had me thinking about actually getting this book. But then I saw that Verminlord and started losing faith... :eusa_sick:
(Actually, the book still sounds interesting to me, and from what I can tell they're doing a decent job with this EoT production... ::heretic:: )
Maybe I should just make my own setting and later turn that into a wargame?
The thing I miss most about oldschool WFB is the willingness of players to do whatever they want with the fluff, house rules, etc. Keeping the things you & your friends like about WFB and changing the things you don't is actually an option. :wink:
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Apparently that's only one of 5 (five) different Verminlords you can make from the kit, so you may like the other variants when we eventually get pics
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Maybe I should just make my own setting and later turn that into a wargame?
The thing I miss most about oldschool WFB is the willingness of players to do whatever they want with the fluff, house rules, etc. Keeping the things you & your friends like about WFB and changing the things you don't is actually an option. :wink:
Yeah, I used to enjoy making things up on my own but my friends that I played with never seemed to care for anything that wasn't published. So then I lost interest.
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Luckily my friends are the opposite. We long ago stopped worrying about official canon and worked on our own kingdoms and continents instead. Made everything much more interesting and fluffier.
Also led to a variety of way's to weave the End Times stuff into our own.
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End Times: Thanquol
Quote Originally Posted by Birdy
10th (preorders Fri 2nd) is a blood angels army box with perhaps a new clam pack character in called the sanguine strike force for 105 GBP don't know contents though plus the new vermin lord.
17th Thanquol end times book and mini
24th new unit, armoured rat ogres called stormfiends plus clam pack warlord and grey seer and re release of old I think in metal oddly warlock engineers
Quote Originally Posted by Another Birdy
Seen white dwarf for 2 weeks time and
..stupid Skaven who cares..... :closed-eyes:
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Re: End Times: Thanquol
Oh, I just got another message!
Quote Originally Posted by Another Birdy
Seen white dwarf for 2 weeks time and it had the vermin lord in there, it is the same size as Nagash, leaping up off the base, and has 5 different variants, one for each of the clans, eshin, pestilence etc. looks absolutely amazing!
This sounds pretty good to me. If this is accurate, I guess a lot of Skaven players will be parted with their money soon.
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the idea of 5 options, 1 for each clan is DUPERcool
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One option for each Clan does sound very cool although i'm wondering what they'll do for the sneaky Eshin Skaven. I can hardly imagine a 30 foot ninja trying to move about stealthily.
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I can hardly imagine a 30 foot ninja trying to move about stealthily.
Maybe he'll just cause one hell of a distraction while they sneak up
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It's two Verminlords in a coat trying to disguise as something else?
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One option for each Clan does sound very cool although i'm wondering what they'll do for the sneaky Eshin Skaven. I can hardly imagine a 30 foot ninja trying to move about stealthily.
He wears a hood?
Sneaky looking curved blades?
Blades with dripping goo / blood / poison?
Maybe a giant cloak?
The idea of a giant ninja is funny....
I want a giant sized ninja now.
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Well, if they got a special rule that allowed them to use the Shadow Lore attribute with infantry despite the different unit type, that could get pretty ninja like. One minute you think you're facing an ordinary skaven assassin, next it's a Verminlord.
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Well, if they got a special rule that allowed them to use the Shadow Lore attribute with infantry despite the different unit type, that could get pretty ninja like. One minute you think you're facing an ordinary skaven assassin, next it's a Verminlord.
'Aha! What you thought was an ordinary assassin, foolish State Troops, was in actual fact a dread VERMINLORD!'
'I'll be honest here, we probably should've suspected something about that the one giant Clanrat in the centre the size of a house.'
'Hey, everyone has off days.'
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the idea of 5 options, 1 for each clan is DUPERcool
I agree and this new mini looks awesome. I'm really hyped for the Rats now, they seem to be getting the best toys. I mean, 5 different Uber-Vermin Lords, a new Grey Seer AND new Rat Ogres? Talk about late Christmas. :blush:
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http://youtu.be/rlzx9pH4kqc
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Re: End Times: Thanquol
What have the titles been so far?
1. Death rises (Nagash returns)
2. Empires rot (Glottkin wrecks half the empire.
3. Gods perish?(Elven gods die, and elves join forces)
4. Kingdoms Fall? Think it'll be the dwarves, or the Bretonnians, or both?
:::cheers:::
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Seeing as Naggaroth and Ulthuan has already fallen I figure it's Bretonnia and the dwarves are the only kingdoms left. I guess the dwarves will be forced to the surface and together with Bretonnia they also get rolled up into one faction.
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im sure it has something to do with Bretonnia, ushering in the new book that reflects the 9th edition new structuring style etc. :::cheers:::
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Wow, yeah, that had Skaven all over it.
My guess is that it'll be Dwarfs. They have a long a bitter hatred with Skaven and as much as I hate to even consider it, they will probably be swarmed out of their holds. This might actually lead to a combining the Empire with Dwarfs. I don't know how GW would fix the Dwarfs magic phase, but I suspect that it'll appear in this book. Dwarfs will get some shiny new toy as will Skaven and it'll ultimately come down to Kraz-a-Krak finally falling. (All the major Capitols seem to be getting destroyed.)
All of these books seem to be pushing toward re-drawing the map.
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If you combine Dwarfs with Empire, you don't need to fix their magic phase, just saying...
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All of these books seem to be pushing toward re-drawing the map.
That is what the last page of Khaine book says, yes. Just change map to world.
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So do you think that they'll change how the fluff in the history portions of the ABs are written? I always enjoy looking over the maps. That could be interesting. Maybe include one pre-End of Times map and one post-End of Times map? Would be neat to compare the two.
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Sorry guys , me again , with no time to read the string....!
Are we talking about a new Skaven book ?!
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So do you think that they'll change how the fluff in the history portions of the ABs are written? I always enjoy looking over the maps. That could be interesting. Maybe include one pre-End of Times map and one post-End of Times map? Would be neat to compare the two.
It'd make for some very interesting reading, I have to say. I can imagine apt use of the prefix 'New' when describing Post-End Times provinces. New Talabecland, for example, or New Ostermark.
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Shame that Nordland and Middenland will no doubt become some kind of wasteland.
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NO! Not Middenland! Well, at least not Middenheim. There still needs to be at least ONE Empire bastion left!
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I seem to recall that Middenheim already fell in Nagash.
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Sorry guys , me again , with no time to read the string....!
Are we talking about a new Skaven book ?!
New End Times book featuring Skaven. Not a new Skaven Army Book, which is overdue, (but not as overdue as Bretonnians.).
But there are new Skaven miniatures coming as well.
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Middenheim hasn't fallen yet, nor Nuln or anything south of the Talabec, with the exception of Sylvania, and the fortress of Heldenhame.
Marienburg, Carroburg, Alderfen, Heffengen and Talabheim have fallen.
Altdorf has been hit hard, but barely survives.
The Nagash book did mention Middenheim had plague, but that was all that was mentioned.
In the latest White Dwarf it features a new fluff piece about Malagor casting a spell that turns cattle, and livestock across The Empire into batsmen, and they attack the farmers, hundreds of villages and towns are lost.
Also Khazrak the One-Eye leads the gathered host, but Graf Boris has gathered an army to go against him, and it sounds like it comes after the events of Glottkin.
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Middenheim hasn't fallen yet, nor Nuln or anything south of the Talabec, with the exception of Sylvania, and the fortress of Heldenhame.
Marienburg, Carroburg, Alderfen, Heffengen and Talabheim have fallen.
I believe Talabheim was only flooded in pus by the Glottkin brothers, with Taal's recovery the city had been cleansed with little loss of life.
The Nagash book did mention Middenheim had plague, but that was all that was mentioned.
Indeed, along with Nuln suffering a zealot rebellion. These internal problems probably accounted for why the Glottkin brothers made such head-way into the Empire.
In the latest White Dwarf it features a new fluff piece about Malagor casting a spell that turns cattle, and livestock across The Empire into batsmen, and they attack the farmers, hundreds of villages and towns are lost.
As a ranch worker, that is some prime nightmare fuel. Though not as bad as the Shamanslayer novel's approach, apparently beastmen aren't biased in using beasts or men as recruits. Bloody horned freaks...
Also Khazrak the One-Eye leads the gathered host, but Graf Boris has gathered an army to go against him, and it sounds like it comes after the events of Glottkin.
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Good for the Graf, about time he settled that blood-rivalry. Hope to see that chaos scum mounted as a trophy above his fireplace. :-D
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In the latest White Dwarf it features a new fluff piece about Malagor casting a spell that turns cattle, and livestock across The Empire into batsmen, and they attack the farmers, hundreds of villages and towns are lost.
Though not as bad as the Shamanslayer novel's approach, apparently beastmen aren't biased in using beasts or men as recruits. Bloody horned freaks...
[/quote]
How was it not as bad, isn't it worse. Shamanslayer was a terrible book and super evil doom stone macguffin was perhaps the dumbest evil thing in the Slayer series (though of course deadly continent destroying bow in Elfslayer is right up there as well). The idiotic plot device was at least localized in Shamanslayer and need some ritual and than only men under the trees for the big evil doom thing. Now a spell that goes everywhere from a Beastman Shaman to change livestock...lovely....leave the killer livestock for hidden levels in Diablo....
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In my saying "isn't as bad" I meant nightmare fuel-wise where as I believe you are talking about plot wise. If you meant nightmare fuel, as I was talking about, having your cattle and goats mutating and killing you isn't as bad as turning into a bloodthirsty beast freak just because you wanted some shade and walked under a tree. At least the killer livestock let you die as a man. Plot-wise, well you are entitled to your opinion.
Also, I believe it was a harp not a bow in "Elfslayer" which I also enjoyed for showing dark elf slave catching tactics, slave conditions, how human ships compare to those of the dark elves, Gotrek's engineering past and how powerful and threatening Thanquol can truly be when not being paranoid.
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http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=204970&d=1419932182
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=204971&d=1419932182
:::cheers:::
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So do you think that they'll change how the fluff in the history portions of the ABs are written?
What history? There will be no history, this world will come to an end and a new one will be born. As saying, that is what last page of Khaine book is implying.
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Well, exactly. That's my point. Will they keep the current history the way it is written in our AB now and then have a big red line representing the EoT events and say "Now from this point on..." or will they completely white-wash all fluff up to this point as if it never existed at all?
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There is only speculation at this point. We really don't know whether 9th or whatever comes next is going to be in a new world, a massively altered world, or a slightly altered world.
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Or if we just stay in this world and go in different timeline (past). :)
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Whatever the next step is... 9th Edition, or something else, GW is making it clear that we must love large models.
LOVE THEM! SOOOOOOO BIG, whoa.
Each Army is trending towards having their own 6in-8in tall thing.
This new Skaven thing reminds me of the new(ish) Wood Elf Treeman.
Undead got Nagash and the Mortarchs. They're just a larger scale vaguely humanoid thing.
Not impressed.
IMHO, these large 6in tall models only look cool when placed next to 100 to 200 28mm scale rank and file dudes.
Otherwise, the Treeman just looks like a slightly out of place big dryad.
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So do you think that they'll change how the fluff in the history portions of the ABs are written?
What history? There will be no history, this world will come to an end and a new one will be born. As saying, that is what last page of Khaine book is implying.
Myself and my group of friends have officially decided that ET hasn't happened, (with regard to what we do, obviously, I can't save you all!). So far it is working well, my general's house in Talabheim is free of knee high blood and my good pal in Altdorf has managed to keep his inn open. No more apocalypse, no more Karl Jesus Franz and no more of my game being ruined by skaven, undead, chaos and all other such malarky.
#Reclaim your history!
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Whatever the next step is... 9th Edition, or something else, GW is making it clear that we must love large models.
LOVE THEM! SOOOOOOO BIG, whoa.
Each Army is trending towards having their own 6in-8in tall thing.
This new Skaven thing reminds me of the new(ish) Wood Elf Treeman.
Undead got Nagash and the Mortarchs. They're just a larger scale vaguely humanoid thing.
Not impressed.
IMHO, these large 6in tall models only look cool when placed next to 100 to 200 28mm scale rank and file dudes.
Otherwise, the Treeman just looks like a slightly out of place big dryad.
Yeah, I don't like the trend towards action figures instead of miniatures. I'm ok with big monsters, but not gigantic monsters. They could have them at 2/3 or even half the size and they'd still be impressive.
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If they had finished the last 3 army books before doing End Times, then they could have had 8th as the last version of Warhammer, and the End Times is literally the end of that Warhammer setting. People can still play 8th and they keep stock on shelves or mail order for as long as it sells enough, but slowly let it die like Specialist Games. And then 9th is entirely new, with a new setting, new look for all the armies, of which there may be fewer, and the game may have significant changes, may share the barest minimum of fluff.
Or it doesn't go much beyond having all the races moved to the old world, maybe change the map, but have a reason why any race could battle any other more easily, in a War For Territory. And maybe squat or merge stuff that doesn't sell well.
There have been lots of wild rumours suggesting or speculating any of those directions. Since it's difficult to discern any truth in rumours, beyond the next couple of weeks releases, all we can really do is wait and see
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Whatever the next step is... 9th Edition, or something else, GW is making it clear that we must love large models.
LOVE THEM! SOOOOOOO BIG, whoa.
Each Army is trending towards having their own 6in-8in tall thing.
This new Skaven thing reminds me of the new(ish) Wood Elf Treeman.
Undead got Nagash and the Mortarchs. They're just a larger scale vaguely humanoid thing.
Not impressed.
IMHO, these large 6in tall models only look cool when placed next to 100 to 200 28mm scale rank and file dudes.
Otherwise, the Treeman just looks like a slightly out of place big dryad.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/TreemanvsDwarfs02_zps4e05dbfb.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/TreemanvsDwarfs02_zps4e05dbfb.jpg.html)
I think they look pretty cool up against one another.
I don't mind that they come out with the big monsters. That's part of the reason I got into Fantasy; the idea of a unit of knights charging down a big, scary Dragon! But what I don't want is for those monsters to become so powerful that a big unit of foot soldiers can't take it down! There really needs to be a constant balance between the two.
My poor Dwarfs...they'll always get the short end of the stick...eh, eh? :biggriin:
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I think Dwarves have nothing to worry about. Apart from Warmachines Lord with Rune of Might + Smiting is obligatory now and takes care of everything infantry can't.
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Well, I was referring to them not having a big monster themselves. Nothing big in fact.
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If Forgeworld had continued with their Warhammer Forge line you could've gotten a Shard Dragon, perhaps. It's pretty much the only monster that is even vaguely related to Dwarves.
So, there'll be more Beastmen involved in this book huh? Well, it'll be interesting to see what happens to Khaz. I always liked him as a character for some reason. Perhaps it's because he didn't get hit with the nerf bat quite as hard in the current Beastman book (poor, poor Morghour...)
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Well, exactly. That's my point. Will they keep the current history the way it is written in our AB now and then have a big red line representing the EoT events and say "Now from this point on..." or will they completely white-wash all fluff up to this point as if it never existed at all?
Its pretty much a "new aera" in history for warhammer world. Just like when we switched from B.C. To A.D.
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Speaking of Beastmen, is it just me, or does that new Skaven model look like a slimmed-down version of a Ghorgon?
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looks like we have the various forms the Vermin Lord can take ............
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205012&d=1419985908
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205014&d=1419985933
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205015&d=1419985941
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205016&d=1419985948
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205013&d=1419985925
here he is next to Nagash
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205011&d=1419985871
:::cheers:::
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looks like we have the various forms the Vermin Lord can take ............
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205012&d=1419985908
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205014&d=1419985933
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205015&d=1419985941
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205016&d=1419985948
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205013&d=1419985925
Those are actually pretty damn good. If I played Skaven, I'd probably get one.
here he is next to Nagash
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205011&d=1419985871
:::cheers:::
I'm reminded of those old TOHO Godzilla movies I loved when I was a kid.
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Well....We're going to need more cannons...Expected one to appear a bit more plague-like also, but I honestly quite like it! Big and awesome, though I wonder what the rules on it will be like...Also, three way fight between Nagash, Giant Vermin Lord and our Karl Franz :P
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mottdon,
Your picture above perfectly shows how an "Action Figure" sized monster can look OK.
You need "Normal" sized Dwarfs to make an "Action Figure" sized monster really pop on the battlefield.
Also,
Dwarfs with big axes chopping down trees is always cool.
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I rather like it a lot. It's good looking and not as pompous and overdesigned looking as the Nagash model.
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(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205016&d=1419985948)
It is, in fact, a ninja the size of a house. Well-played, GW, well-played.
"Ah-so! Stealthy ninja throwing star!"
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You could use spare parts to make it look like he's disguised as a house so he will be more stealthy and get two Verminlords.
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I'd prefer to see this with elves. Not being a mouse of course. (Though it looks like Magic the Gathering 3D)
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Or you can simply have quite the impressive trophy room with all of those heads mounted on your wall!
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You could use spare parts to make it look like he's disguised as a house so he will be more stealthy and get two Verminlords.
You are my new favorite person.
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What is that giant Rat ?
Surely it won't be in any mainstream rulebook/army book lol
only in this silly end times thing no one is bothering with
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The Verminlord has been in many a Skaven AB before - just not this big.
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He was once smaller than an Ogre (well, a 2014/15 Ogre, anyway)
(http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b565/wilsonthenarc/HornedRat_zps29a9706a.jpg) (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/wilsonthenarc/media/HornedRat_zps29a9706a.jpg.html)
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You could use spare parts to make it look like he's disguised as a house so he will be more stealthy and get two Verminlords.
You are my new favorite person.
Why thank you. :happy:
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You do know what happens to the favourite persons of dark knights, don't you? :engel:
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Only good things? :mellow:
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So far as I am aware, that is the case.
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You do know what happens to the favourite persons of dark knights, don't you? :engel:
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/934043e036f277efbdaf737fe5749088/tumblr_muni7f7XFH1s13iszo1_500.gif)
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: End Times: Thanquol
Quote Originally Posted by Archibald_TK View Post
Some info that may interest you:
- The Verminlords are the big model release, Boneripper is big but not that big. It is cheaper (in real money) as well.
- It's the thirteenth and most powerful Boneripper ever created.
- Boneripper has two weapon options. First one is a set of 4 Flamers looking a lot like the drawing on the GW blog.
- Second option is a CC one and it's four of these ball smoke plague dispenser thingies that skavens use, you know like on the alternative build of the Screaming Bell kit?
:::cheers:::
Re: End Times: Thanquol
Quote Originally Posted by Archibald_TK View Post
Some info that may interest you:
In term of fluff:
- Apparently Ikkit successfully manage to poison the halls of that Dwarf Slayer City.
- A massive Skaven army is laying siege to Karaz-a-Karak
- Skavens activate some kind of machine, causing a meteoric rain to annihilate Itza. It is said that the Slaans start the Exodus at that point.
- A massive fleet is spotted from the North. Archaon is finally making his move.
Man seems bleak for the good guys but they will come back in a great way :closed-eyes:
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Man seems bleak for the good guys but they will come back in a great way :closed-eyes:
I want to share your enthusiasm but I feel it's the end game for the good gus. Apparently WFB recieves the 40K treatment I.E. everything goes to shit. :unsure:
As for the Vermin Lord models: I love them! Altough the huge ninja Vermin Lord is just silly. How the hell can this thing be stealthy at all? :-P
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As for the Vermin Lord models: I love them! Altough the huge ninja Vermin Lord is just silly. How the hell can this thing be stealthy at all? :-P
Positive thinking--or if that doesn't work, then...
"This is not the Vermin Lord you're looking for."
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_akLHpeO7qyA/TK4pg4Xrw1I/AAAAAAAACts/9BFVb8lv2Y8/s1600/did%2Bhe%2Bsee%2Bme.jpg)
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Thanquil and Bone ripper
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205292
dang!! four possible flamers :unsure:
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so, cribs notes, how fucked are dwarfs?
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It's almost a guarantee that the southern holds will be gone. Krak Ankor is now filled with poison by Ikit Claw, so they probably won't be going back in there for quite some time. The way I see it, all the Dwarfs will be forced to Kraz-a-Krak where they will have to make a last stand against a sea of Skaven. They will survive by the skin of their teeth, winning the battle for their capital, but ultimately lose the war and have to rebuild.
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I like the new Boneripper model. It reminds me of Mortal Kombat.
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I actually like it too. I think it will look more believable on the table top than the Vermin Lord model. It comes with alternate hand options other than the flamers, doesn't it?
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It's almost a guarantee that the southern holds will be gone. Krak Ankor is now filled with poison by Ikit Claw, so they probably won't be going back in there for quite some time. The way I see it, all the Dwarfs will be forced to Kraz-a-Krak where they will have to make a last stand against a sea of Skaven. They will survive by the skin of their teeth, winning the battle for their capital, but ultimately lose the war and have to rebuild.
with the dwindling dwarf population, that's a mortal blow.
whens the next piece of shit I mean endtimes book due out?
I do like these round of releases though.
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More pics.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/Boneripper01_zps3020a679.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/Boneripper01_zps3020a679.jpg.html)
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/Boneripper02_zpsd2d77b5f.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/Boneripper02_zpsd2d77b5f.jpg.html)
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/Boneripper03_zps910699a2.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/Boneripper03_zps910699a2.jpg.html)
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/WarpstoneDice_zpsb8534914.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/WarpstoneDice_zpsb8534914.jpg.html)
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Not fond of the robo leg, and Boneripper's head could be a little bigger, but other than those little nitpicks, I really like this kit! Both versions. I'd love to see Boneripper painted with a more sickly pallor.
I think I'm increasingly sold on the Verminlord kit, too, but not with the GW painting, and not with the set of horns shown on the "default" version pic.
Would love to take a shot both of these kits, but I've been priced out of GW's market.
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Thanquil and Bone ripper
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205292
dang!! four possible flamers :unsure:
Steampunk & Lazerfists & Warpstone Shootas'
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I remember when I betted on a new boneripper that would be made from other bonerippers all stitched together, looks like I wasn't too far off the mark. :-D
Anyway, I like the new models and I'm sure the dwarves are going to make a great last-stand against the skaven. Also, does anyone else think boneripper's threatening appearance is lessend by Thanquol's presence? His incompetence makes me see them more as pinky and the brain than as harbringers of the Horned Rat. :-P
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Much want. Need to get other things painted first though :(
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I remember when I betted on a new boneripper that would be made from other bonerippers all stitched together, looks like I wasn't too far off the mark. :-D
Anyway, I like the new models and I'm sure the dwarves are going to make a great last-stand against the skaven. Also, does anyone else think boneripper's threatening appearance is lessend by Thanquol's presence? His incompetence makes me see them more as pinky and the brain than as harbringers of the Horned Rat. :-P
Thanquol is easily my favourite Warhammer villain simply because you know he's going to accidentally change everything via one bizarre and surreal mistake.
Anyways, way I see it, the Dwarves will be driven out of the majority of their holds, and will be forced to march to the Empire for assistance! And then they'll help us build THE BIGGEST STEAM TANK YOU'VE EVER SEE-
*is dragged away, giggling maniacally*
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Really like it. Could lose the mechanical leg though.
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Steampunk & Lazerfists & Warpstone Shootas'
Fits with the flavor of the Skaven army, though. :::cheers:::
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don't know how good a picture this will be ...rules for Thanquil and bone ripper
https://mobile.twitter.com/Rhellion/media/grid?idx=0
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Great.
Now we have power fists and heavy flamers in fantasy, why not just melt this in to one big game with 40K...
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Referring to this thread http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=50040.0 and the themes therein;
I will repeat what I have said elsewhere; I cannot believe GW would be so utterly fiscally irresponsible to spend the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands? Best part of a million?) to create all these huge new End Times models and promote the heck out of them so people buy them if the whole setting is going to change so much.
Either the models become obsolete (and you wasted the dev costs) or the models become obsolete (and people are really hacked off they bought them).
For a whole bunch of reasons, unless GW are just utterly stupid when it comes to financial decisions, Warhammer has to remain (in some form - even if legacy "barely supported") pretty much as it is now. It makes no sense for them to abandon everything - they would slice out a large share of their income.
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Well, you also notice that they aren't making these new models for every army. What did Empire get? The same model with a new stat line. What about Malekith? That's not even a new model!
I think that they will have some models that translate over to the new game but not nearly all. Eventually, with this new release schedule, they will replace all of the models with new ones that they can copyright.
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I could see these new models from the EoT being incorporated into the New Hammer game -- sort of bridging the two versions and then they scrap most everything else.
Not saying that will happen, but I can see it. I mean, the destruction in the lore and the massive kill off of special characters to me is a huge signal of massive change.
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GW are just utterly stupid when it comes to financial decisions,
take nothing off the table, DN
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Referring to this thread http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=50040.0 and the themes therein;
I will repeat what I have said elsewhere; I cannot believe GW would be so utterly fiscally irresponsible to spend the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands? Best part of a million?) to create all these huge new End Times models and promote the heck out of them so people buy them if the whole setting is going to change so much.
Either the models become obsolete (and you wasted the dev costs) or the models become obsolete (and people are really hacked off they bought them).
For a whole bunch of reasons, unless GW are just utterly stupid when it comes to financial decisions, Warhammer has to remain (in some form - even if legacy "barely supported") pretty much as it is now. It makes no sense for them to abandon everything - they would slice out a large share of their income.
This is what I thought as I was reading the latest rumours.
Why release multiple books of fluff and a bunch of new models just to have them be obsolete in max. 1 year?
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This is what I thought as I was reading the latest rumours.
Why release multiple books of fluff and a bunch of new models just to have them be obsolete in max. 1 year?
Didn't they do that with Vampire Counts 5th edition?
As long as someone makes a nice fantasy battle game with square bases, I think it's fine.
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Didn't they do that with Vampire Counts 5th edition?
No models were made obsolete though the book itself had a very short life as it came out only like 18 months before being Ravening Horded
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The "square base" thing isn't a serious issue - the idea is to put the round bases on movement trays like the LOTR games (probably identical bases). For us, with 20mm squares, we can just arrange them appropriately on movement trays (in the middle of the 25mm circle). It's a fudge, but it won't require rebasing.
Of course, that presumes the models we have can even find a place in the "warriors of order" or whatever.
I must admit; I am growing a little more excited by the "warriors of order" prospect - but that is just my army fluff. We are a goddess-fearing bunch of Chaos fighters devoted to kicking mutated ass. It is a simple piece of fluff upgrade to say "and then the army ascended!"
I think I will - if the models are nice and this limited release garbage isn't too annoying - make an "ascended" version of the army; angels and super warriors and whatnot.
Didn't Mantic do some big human angels?
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Didn't Mantic do some big human angels?
Yes (http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/basilea/product/basilean-elohi-3-figures.html) but that whole line is entirely too Heroes of Might and Magic Humans for me.
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Didn't Mantic do some big human angels?
Yes (http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/basilea/product/basilean-elohi-3-figures.html) but that whole 9th edition of warhammer is entirely too Heroes of Might and Magic Humans for me.
I fear I may have fixed that for you :(
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Didn't Mantic do some big human angels?
Yes (http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/basilea/product/basilean-elohi-3-figures.html) but that whole line is entirely too Heroes of Might and Magic Humans for me.
god, those are awful. mantic sux
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I did think of getting some of their basilean panther knights to have just the panthers, didn't think much of the riders, and mix them in with my knights panthers, but decided against it. I bought a metal "warrior priest" guy, and found it's a smaller miniature than warhammer, more like LotR height, but not with the realistic body proportions. Either that, or he's half-dwarf. I think he ended up in my bitz box, as it's not useable in warhammer.
Most of their other humans look pretty bad though. The undead stuff doesn't look too bad though, but then Zombies and skeletons don't really need to, but it would be nice to see a size comparison
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Most of their other humans look pretty bad though. The undead stuff doesn't look too bad though, but then Zombies and skeletons don't really need to, but it would be nice to see a size comparison
I'd actually rate the Undead in the good range, the ghouls are quite good really. All their other ranges are pretty bad.
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Most of their other humans look pretty bad though. The undead stuff doesn't look too bad though, but then Zombies and skeletons don't really need to, but it would be nice to see a size comparison
I'd actually rate the Undead in the good range, the ghouls are quite good really. All their other ranges are pretty bad.
So Mantic should rename themselves Necro-mantic? :-P
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Those angels are ridiculously bad.
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So Mantic should rename themselves Necro-mantic? :-P
You go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.
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So Mantic should rename themselves Necro-mantic? :-P
Someone buy a beer for this guy! Put it on Midaski's tab! :::cheers:::
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Someone buy a bier for this guy! Put it on Midaski's tab! :::cheers:::
FTFY Spelling, spelling! :engel:
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So you guys want me to sit in a corner while drinking a beer and with a bier? :icon_neutral:
OK! :biggriin:
(http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah64/baronn1991/Mobile%20Uploads/1420673214573_zpsf991316b.jpg) (http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/baronn1991/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1420673214573_zpsf991316b.jpg.html)
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:::cheers:::
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Referring to this thread http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=50040.0 and the themes therein;
I will repeat what I have said elsewhere; I cannot believe GW would be so utterly fiscally irresponsible to spend the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands? Best part of a million?) to create all these huge new End Times models and promote the heck out of them so people buy them if the whole setting is going to change so much.
Either the models become obsolete (and you wasted the dev costs) or the models become obsolete (and people are really hacked off they bought them).
For a whole bunch of reasons, unless GW are just utterly stupid when it comes to financial decisions, Warhammer has to remain (in some form - even if legacy "barely supported") pretty much as it is now. It makes no sense for them to abandon everything - they would slice out a large share of their income.
Because they're clinically insane. Also WFB is kill now. I hope you enjoyed the ride guys. "Bubbles of reality" await us all. :dry:
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Was just looking in the GW online store.... what is the difference between Thanquol and Rise of the Horned Rat?
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Different text and price for me...
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Salutations all, I was just over at the noble Round table of Bretonnia. In it's rumor topic one good fellow by the name of Kaleb posted the White Dwarf's current End Times timeline. Some very interesting stuff in there. :wink:
Also, between that timeline and some rumors, it looks like the fifth End Times book will be called "The blood of Sigmar" and will have Valten defending Middenheim.
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Reading the timeline from BOLS I saw a few things :
Nuln apparently gets destroyed by Thanqol and Skreetch.Yet another Empire city gets destroyed.
Hans Leitdorf fights in the Eltharion battle so is likely dead.
Then Middenheim gets assaulted again and it's defence is led by Valten in what will be a decisive battle against the forces of chaos.(sound familiar =) )
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Was just looking in the GW online store.... what is the difference between Thanquol and Rise of the Horned Rat?
Thanquol is the fluff and rules campaign book. Rise of the Horned Rat is the time in novel from Black Library
Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk
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Thanquol is the fluff and rules campaign book. Rise of the Horned Rat is the time in novel from Black Library
Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk
:::cheers::: Thanks.
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It looks the rats got the power armor first. Steampunk is the new black or so it seems. :mrgreen:
(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205552&d=1420838864)
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But in this case, that is so awesome. Warpstone nipple and all.
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I'll send 20 spearmen to take care of that guy :closed-eyes:
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I felt this was appropriate:
(http://www.cargad.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/nuevas-ratas-ogro-acorazadas.jpg)
My theory is that to combat all of this skaven steam and warp tech, the dwarfs will abandon their long tradition against change, and team up with the engineers of nuln to make some of their own magical "Steam Machines" in the end which helps them survive.
And thus, 9th edition shall be called Steamhammer. Or maybe Warmachine, wait.. shit... :icon_lol:
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Those stormfiends look like they'd fit in awfully well with 40k stuff, just saying...
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The look of their armor kind of reminds me of the pseudo-futuristic look of the dwarf gyropcopters.
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Also, between that timeline and some rumors, it looks like the fifth End Times book will be called "The blood of Sigmar" and will have Valten defending Middenheim.
The Blood of Sigmar, hm?
That's not a title that could ever be confusing (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer/sigmars-blood.html), oh no.
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And thus, 9th edition shall be called Steamhammer. Or maybe Warmachine, wait.. shit... :icon_lol:
Steambubble
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Also, between that timeline and some rumors, it looks like the fifth End Times book will be called "The blood of Sigmar" and will have Valten defending Middenheim.
The Blood of Sigmar, hm?
That's not a title that could ever be confusing (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer/sigmars-blood.html), oh no.
Agreed, let's hope they use something more original than what the rumors are saying.
Those stormfiends look like they'd fit in awfully well with 40k stuff, just saying...
Well it's been stated GW is trying to attract the 40k players into playing fantasy, what better way than using aesthetics they are used to? As long as it doesn't end up looking like a warmahordes doppelganger I'll be alright with it.
My theory is that to combat all of this skaven steam and warp tech, the dwarfs will abandon their long tradition against change, and team up with the engineers of nuln to make some of their own magical "Steam Machines" in the end which helps them survive.
And thus, 9th edition shall be called Steamhammer. Or maybe Warmachine, wait.. shit... :icon_lol:
That's quite doubtful as Nuln is now under Skaven control, Nuln's technology is probably how the Skaven made these brutes.
Though, with the speculation of the Empire, Bretonnia and dwarves combining, we might see some interesting units in the future.
Also, any bets on where those last errant winds, beast and metal, are going? Since the good guys got so many of the winds I'm betting chaos and Skaven get them.
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I'm starting to think it's more than just aestethics, I think they're going full warmahordes.
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Also, between that timeline and some rumors, it looks like the fifth End Times book will be called "The blood of Sigmar" and will have Valten defending Middenheim.
The Blood of Sigmar, hm?
That's not a title that could ever be confusing (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer/sigmars-blood.html), oh no.
All of them have been named after the main villain. It look set up to be End Times: Archaon
Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk
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End Times : Disappointing Headbutt
I think we might see the Empire / Brets / Ogres / Dwarfs faction of "Good Warriors of Light and Order" being a lot more 'classic' to contrast with the steampunk Skaven etc. Lots more magical, supernatural stuff - the kind of thing the Brets did well. Monsters and magic and mystery.
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those skave marines are the most fucking ridicously piss poor pieces of shit I have ever EVVEEERRRRRRR seen in my entire life.
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details on the new models: http://www.thefieldsofblood.com/2015/01/stormfiends-white-dwarf-cover.html
Armored giant rats with miniguns? Please Archaon, come, and destroy this world so we can go back to axes, bows, dragons and magic ...
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All I can think of when I see those stormfiends
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICRlZ_H42Xw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICRlZ_H42Xw)
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those skave marines are the most fucking ridicously piss poor pieces of shit I have ever EVVEEERRRRRRR seen in my entire life.
I find it encouraging GW can continue one-up themselves in your estimation :)
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for the most part, I like the ET models.
I really like the verminlord.
those skave marines are just a joke.
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I think I will continue to take the Empire smallfolk published stance of:
"The ratmen just don't exist!"
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I saw a rumour that the warp or some bollocks will come down and create pockets of reality or some bollocks over sections of the world.
It sounds bloody abysmal and frankly a bit ridiculous.
You like low fantasy? Screw you! Now we have magic walls and demi gods and pockets of reality that float or bollocks.
I haven't touched any warhammer since these books started to come out.
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I saw a rumour that the warp or some bollocks will come down and create pockets of reality or some bollocks over sections of the world.
It sounds bloody abysmal and frankly a bit ridiculous.
You like low fantasy? Screw you! Now we have magic walls and demi gods and pockets of reality that float or bollocks.
I haven't touched any warhammer since these books started to come out.
Well I'm curious, what would a low-fantasy apocalypse that involves daemons and magic look like?
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Warhammer was low fantasy when I began. There's one wizard in Kislev who actually has real power. The background books talk about the people of the nations not the superman character no one gives to shits about. The entire region of Tilea has fractured and good characters who don't have AWESOME powers constantly, they're just people.
Read the original Gotrex and Felix stuff then read the new Gotrex and Felix stuff. They went from killing local slightly mutated but still human characters to fighting piles of shit characters who can wipe out continents with a magical bow.
The new GW writers can't write better than the worst fan fiction writers can and have their hands permanently set to SUPER WOW.
Sure it's not super low fantasy. But it's not absolute wank like it is now. They've taken everything vaguely relate able and turned it into a comic book.
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Also does anyone know the fluff yet? I want to see how they've ruined Tilea properly now.
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Also does anyone know the fluff yet? I want to see how they've ruined Tilea properly now.
There are some summaries on Warseer mainly how many Dwarfs are getting killed:
Gobbla killed by a Moulder beastmaster
Belegar killed by Queek
Queek killed by Thorgrim
Thorgrim killed by Snikch
Tilea and Estalia aren't only overrun, they're completely destroyed.
-Zhufbar holds,Burlok & son,Malakai and the engineering guild just put so much stuff into it that the keep survives
-Todbringer finaly manages to kill khazrak (written at random because curse beastmen names),Middenheim holds.All the remaining forces of the north empire join there,and they hire ogres to help.Also,they finally get around to burning a vast part of the forest surrounding the city
-Many empire citizens fleeing the Reikland end into the dwarves' keep of the grey mountains (Norn/Izor/Hirn),and those holds ally themselves with the empire
-The Nameless is indeed Constant von Drachenfels,and the guy that saved the countess of Nuln in nagash is actually another of the characters from Genevieve,as suspected
-Vlad and Karl Franz retreat to Sylvania and Averland
-Nagash keeps marching north and clashes with orcs/ogres,his fleet fights with the dwarves of Barakk Varr and traitors from the inside
- It seems the wind of metal did not imbue itself in Thorgrim, but rather in the Throne of power. The wind left when the throne and rune of Azamar were broken (I don't know which caused which. The rune breaking causing the wind to leave, or the reverse. I'll check for some more details)
- Apparently Barak Varr, Karak Kadrin, and the holds in the grey mountains are sacked/destroyed. Karak Azul as well.
- Clan Mors assaults Karaz-A-Karak, is beaten, and almost entirely destroyed as a result. Queek and Ikit claw die. Several other clans are underground, waiting to skitterleap inside Karaz-A-Karak. The dwarfs go through the dead and collect so many runic weapons and items practically the whole army is equipped with them.
- kragg the grimm died in the undermines of Karaz-A-Karak.
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Very interesting indeed, it sounds like a real slug-fest went down. Many thanks for the update S.O.F! :::cheers:::
Also, good for Todbringer, he finally took that beastmen down. Good to know Middenheim remains in imperial hands as well, things are grim but hope is not lost.
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I'm sad to discover that Queek Headtaker was slain and that Clan Mors was devastated. However, in light of the recent 9th Edition rumors, I suppose it matters little.
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Warhammer was low fantasy when I began. There's one wizard in Kislev who actually has real power. The background books talk about the people of the nations not the superman character no one gives to shits about. The entire region of Tilea has fractured and good characters who don't have AWESOME powers constantly, they're just people.
Read the original Gotrex and Felix stuff then read the new Gotrex and Felix stuff. They went from killing local slightly mutated but still human characters to fighting piles of shit characters who can wipe out continents with a magical bow.
The new GW writers can't write better than the worst fan fiction writers can and have their hands permanently set to SUPER WOW.
Sure it's not super low fantasy. But it's not absolute wank like it is now. They've taken everything vaguely relate able and turned it into a comic book.
A hundred times this. What they're doing now is cringe, it has no literary worth.
I'm sad to discover that Queek Headtaker was slain and that Clan Mors was devastated. However, in light of the recent 9th Edition rumors, I suppose it matters little.
Well, he didn't have a plastic model, did he?
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Hottest news :
GW releases new models, Rat Ogre Terminators!
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(http://www.cargad.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/nuevas-ratas-ogro-acorazadas.jpg)
What. The. Fuck. Is. That.
Rat terminators? I've been pretty much out of WHFB for a few months, partly due to the Endtime stuff not interesting me at all and partly due to a high workload. But it was a few months. How did this happen all of a sudden?
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I can't wait to use these guys against my WFRP group next time they want to afford boots.
Seriously though, when did we move from this:
(http://i.imgur.com/vsYgD4v.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/2jzcHPt.jpg)
To this:
(http://i.imgur.com/STDW1uD.jpg)
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Also does anyone know the fluff yet? I want to see how they've ruined Tilea properly now.
Tilea and Estalia have been killed off-screen. No build up, no tension, just BAM! They're gone. Yes, I'm pissed.
Also I agree with you Mogsam, this whole EoT stuff is one, huge, bad fanfic. "Khaine" showed us the truth of it. I'll never get over Malekith being the good guy.
Also fuck those reality bubbles. WFB was always about mundane world in which magic was treated as a dangerous, last resort. Now we'll have a Holy Empire in 9th, which, if the rumours are to be belived, will be populated by Ascendant Humans, like our good, old KF on steroids.
Also Nuln is gone and I haven't even begun to paint my army. So demotivated it actually hurts. :(
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What. The. Fuck. Is. That.
Rat terminators?
Space Ratines? Technocrats?
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I can't wait to use these guys against my WFRP group next time they want to afford boots.
Seriously though, when did we move from this:
(http://i.imgur.com/vsYgD4v.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/2jzcHPt.jpg)
To this:
(http://i.imgur.com/STDW1uD.jpg)
I agree with this. I really want to play 40K, but nobody here plays it or seems to be interested in starting with me so I guess I'll have to play Fantasy with SWORDS AND BOWS, not power armour and machine guns. :cry:
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This is all so completely ridiculous. I knew it was coming, but I still HATE that the Ratmen have virtually destroyed the Dwarfs. Even with one of the Winds of Magic supporting them! No way they're that tough.
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To be fair, the Skaven basically overwhelmed the dwarves with pure numbers. For a brighter point, for the good guys, the clans Moulder and Pestilence are completely decimated by the assualts. Those clans combined easily had to be in the millions, probably nearing billion, and credit has to be given to the dwarves for dealing such a blow to the enemy.
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Nuln is destroyed?
No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This End Times thing could have been a fun and cool way to shake up the world. Sadly they are just destroying everything because its clear that they view WHFB as a failure. Really sad. I've played since 1996.
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Nuln is destroyed?
It has been annulned.
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Bonsoir,
some pics found on the Warfo :
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/18/77/91/11/110.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/18/77/91/11/210.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/18/77/91/11/310.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/18/77/91/11/411.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/18/77/91/11/510.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/18/77/91/11/610.jpg)
And the site where they are taken from : http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?20736-End-Times-4-Rumor-Roundup (http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?20736-End-Times-4-Rumor-Roundup)
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Really doesn't look like Archaon is getting a new model looking at that! Love the artwork.
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First off, many thanks toubotouneuk for the pictures. :::cheers:::
Secondly, those stormfiends look much better in red. It makes them appear less like 40k knock-offs, the blue color was obviously for ultramarine fans.
Really doesn't look like Archaon is getting a new model looking at that! Love the artwork.
The rumors I've heard put him and Van Horst on dragons, so one can certainly expect something.
Nuln is destroyed?
It has been annulned.
Good one Fidelis. :icon_wink:
On the subject of Nuln, it kind of always had a target sign painted on it. Isn't the common joke "You're not anyone unless you've sacked Nuln"?
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WHOLY CRAP I HATE THOSE 40k SKAVEN ................thanks for the pictures though :closed-eyes:
seriously, they look great for a model in 40k but good grief this is WAY to much for even a fan-boy like me ...Skaven BOOOOO!!!
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(( Baron von Klatz,
As a bit of a peeve of mine... you're using "decimated" incorrectly.
Decimated means 1 in 10 were eliminated. It's from the Latin "Decem" meaning "10"
For a brighter point, for the good guys, the clans Moulder and Pestilence are completely decimated by the assaults. Those clans combined easily had to be in the millions, probably nearing billion, and credit has to be given to the dwarves for dealing such a blow to the enemy.
So... given that "Decimated" means "one-in-ten"... and if Moulder had a population equal to 1 Billion. It means that the dwarves killed all of 100 million Moulder. Not bad... but not really "heroic" either. More... a statistic. Given how the rats feel life if cheap... not much of a blow. EDIT: Fixed my own math typing. Previously had 100,000,000 million... which would have been freaking huge. But, anyway.
"Today on the Dwarf News Network, Dwarves slay over 100 million rats in sewers. On a lighter note, Barbara, the price of Squeemish Huscarl's Bar-Be-Que Meat-Stuff has dropped to 13 cents per pound."
Anyway, I think you mean either a "Cadre" remained... or that Moulder was annihilated.
Double-anyway, I guess if nothing else, you could use the new Super-Spikey-Space-Marine-Vermin as like... Melee Ogryn or something? Overall, though, I'm... not really impressed with the Stormfiends. Weirdly, for me, I've always liked the dirty-tech look of Skaven. The new tech looks too... clean. And functional.))
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40k Skaven? More like Warmahordes (http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Cygnar-Stormwall-Comparison.jpg).
I think you'll notice the similarities. :-)
On another note, this all is just "I don't even" material.
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40k Skaven? More like Warmahordes (http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Cygnar-Stormwall-Comparison.jpg).
Except the Warmachine models are interesting, thematic, and cool.
The new Skaven models have no relevance to the setting, and don't even make sense. If the Skaven have machine guns, why would you strap 3 of them to a Frankensteinian rat?
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Did you notice how careful they were not to get the bases of the Screaming Bell or the Plague Furnace in any of the pics?
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Did you notice how careful they were not to get the bases of the Screaming Bell or the Plague Furnace in any of the pics?
I guess im not getting what you mean ???
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With all of the rumors that have been floating around, there was a lot of buzz when a picture was released from WD #50 that showed the new Boneripper model with a Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace in the background and both of them were on round bases. Nobody really knows what to make of it. Is that an indication of round bases in our future? You can't see the bases in any of these pics. :unsure:
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Something else is that people have been wondering how the Bell would be used since it is normally pushed into combat by ranked up Skaven on either side. If the Bell is now on a round base, how would that work? From the pic with the new general and Rat Terminators on either side, it dosen't appear to me that there are any infantry on either side of it - ?
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The incriminating picture is from the ebook version of White Dwarf. The same picture is on the inside of the front cover of the physical copy, but cropped so you can't see the bases
Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk
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(( Baron von Klatz,
As a bit of a peeve of mine... you're using "decimated" incorrectly.
Decimated means 1 in 10 were eliminated. It's from the Latin "Decem" meaning "10"
For a brighter point, for the good guys, the clans Moulder and Pestilence are completely decimated by the assaults. Those clans combined easily had to be in the millions, probably nearing billion, and credit has to be given to the dwarves for dealing such a blow to the enemy.
So... given that "Decimated" means "one-in-ten"... and if Moulder had a population equal to 1 Billion. It means that the dwarves killed all of 100 million Moulder. Not bad... but not really "heroic" either. More... a statistic. Given how the rats feel life if cheap... not much of a blow. EDIT: Fixed my own math typing. Previously had 100,000,000 million... which would have been freaking huge. But, anyway.
"Today on the Dwarf News Network, Dwarves slay over 100 million rats in sewers. On a lighter note, Barbara, the price of Squeemish Huscarl's Bar-Be-Que Meat-Stuff has dropped to 13 cents per pound."
Anyway, I think you mean either a "Cadre" remained... or that Moulder was annihilated.
Double-anyway, I guess if nothing else, you could use the new Super-Spikey-Space-Marine-Vermin as like... Melee Ogryn or something? Overall, though, I'm... not really impressed with the Stormfiends. Weirdly, for me, I've always liked the dirty-tech look of Skaven. The new tech looks too... clean. And functional.))
Haha, good catch. I didn't think anyone would have a problem with me using that term in the sense of a clan nearly being wiped out. If anything the reverse of it is true as 9/10 of those clans fell to the dwarves. Next time I will be more accurate in my terminology with words like: obliterated, annihilated or exterminated.
Concerning the round bases, probably just some showcase models that weren't meant to mean anything.
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Also I agree with you Mogsam, this whole EoT stuff is one, huge, bad fanfic.
To be fair, Black Library has been writing bad fanfic now for almost a decade in the 30k universe and nobody seems to mind...in general gaming fluff tends to be phoned in, whether it's in supllements or novels.
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As a bit of a peeve of mine... you're using "decimated" incorrectly.
Decimated means 1 in 10 were eliminated. It's from the Latin "Decem" meaning "10"
Well, he's not using it incorrectly, unless you're discussing it in the context of Roman history. That is the original meaning and it can still refer to that, but in modern English it now has additional accepted definitions such as to drastically reduce in number or cause significant destruction.
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As a bit of a peeve of mine... you're using "decimated" incorrectly.
Decimated means 1 in 10 were eliminated. It's from the Latin "Decem" meaning "10"
Well, he's not using it incorrectly, unless you're discussing it in the context of Roman history. That is the original meaning and it can still refer to that, but in modern English it now has additional accepted definitions such as to drastically reduce in number or cause significant destruction.
Perhaps heximated, septimated, or octimated would have been more accurate.
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Has anyone actually read the book? Maybe decimated (in the original sense) is quite accurate? :engel:
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By that reasoning, WHFB is getting monomated.
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Hello everybody.
The Stormfiends are led by a tiny deformed skaven, with a big brain, it seems to be on their back :
(http://teamtoutseul.free.fr/wordpress/wp-content/img_20150112_130924-1.jpg)
They really remind me Dark Eldars (and in blue, they remind me Bullgryns).
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Good find. :-)
That would corroborate the 40k merger theory.
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Meh, there was a similar set-up with the mutants in "Manslayer". Except in that the carried around giant brain midget was a powerful Warlock, these skaven controllers are probably the reason the stormfiends are said to have a hideous intellect.
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Hello everybody.
The Stormfiends are led by a tiny deformed skaven, with a big brain, it seems to be on their back :
(http://teamtoutseul.free.fr/wordpress/wp-content/img_20150112_130924-1.jpg)
They really remind me Dark Eldars (and in blue, they remind me Bullgryns).
(http://s24.postimg.org/cz6lr3ilh/hmmmm.jpg)
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Oh my, I completely missed the storm fiend pics... Those models are truly awful.... They really are abandoning the whfb aesthetic in favour of the 40k one...
Bleh
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WHOLY CRAP I HATE THOSE 40k SKAVEN ................thanks for the pictures though :closed-eyes:
seriously, they look great for a model in 40k but good grief this is WAY to much for even a fan-boy like me ...Skaven BOOOOO!!!
I can certainly see them as some form of AdMech monstrosities in 40K, but I think that they do quite good in WFB. Skaven were always all about the Steampunk.
To be fair, Black Library has been writing bad fanfic now for almost a decade in the 30k universe and nobody seems to mind...in general gaming fluff tends to be phoned in, whether it's in supllements or novels.
True, but there WERE good books. Early G&F, Witchhunter, Brunner, The Empire Army novels... These were written well and really captured the spirit of the game. Nowdays we have "Warhammer by Michael Bay" edition.
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True, but there WERE good books. Early G&F, Witchhunter, Brunner, The Empire Army novels... These were written well and really captured the spirit of the game. Nowdays we have "Warhammer by Michael Bay" edition.
I recall some of the early stuff as being decent, yes. Drachenfels and the 40k Inquisitor books, for example.
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Honestly? I thought the first G&F was utterly mediocre, and it put me off reading any more.
The Inquisitor books were ok, but felt like comic books forced into a novel format. I'd read comics written by Dan Abnett, for sure, but not really sold on his novels.
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Honestly? I thought the first G&F was utterly mediocre, and it put me off reading any more.
The Inquisitor books were ok, but felt like comic books forced into a novel format. I'd read comics written by Dan Abnett, for sure, but not really sold on his novels.
What I liked about the early G&F was the fact that they had to fight against mundane enemies. Now they seem to plow through Greater Daemons on a daily basis. Inquisitor novels and Drachenfels didn't really aged well IMO but they're ok. I highly recommend anything by C L Werner. The man's a genius when it comes to WFB.
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I completely agree, C L Werner's novel "Runefang" was the first warhammer novel I read and was what got me hooked into the franchise in the first place. :-)
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Honestly? I thought the first G&F was utterly mediocre, and it put me off reading any more.
Trollslayer was pretty scattershot, you're right, but I'd recommend Skavenslayer. It was silly, but fun.
Daemonslayer lost me on the series, though. I found it utterly forgettable and it caused me to give up on Gotrek and Felix.
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lol at those skaven space marines with little skaven fetuses driving them
so
fucking
shit.
the wizard looks cool, with a better paintjob. (his face is too pale, looks crap)
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the models themselves look fine. They are designed well and look tough bla bla ...HOWEVER they do not look like they fit in the fantasy universe they should be hooked up with 40k as ratmen in space :mellow:
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Those Verminators certainly are one of the ugliest things things I've ever seen.
The End Times and the rumours of Bubblehammer reminds me of Achilles dragging the body of Hector in front of Priam.
It's not enough for GW to kill that which I love, they have to mock me in the process.
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the models themselves look fine. They are designed well and look tough bla bla ...HOWEVER they do not look like they fit in the fantasy universe they should be hooked up with 40k as ratmen in space :mellow:
^This. I like the quality and attention to detail that these new models have, but they fit about as well in Fantasy as does the Soul Grinder.
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the models themselves look fine. They are designed well and look tough bla bla ...HOWEVER they do not look like they fit in the fantasy universe they should be hooked up with 40k as ratmen in space :mellow:
^This. I like the quality and attention to detail that these new models have, but they fit about as well in Fantasy as does the Soul Grinder.
You have it all wrong gents, maybe they don't fit in the current fantasy hodgepodge, but they probably fit very well in the future bubbleworld, which we don't know anything about but the devs mmost probably do.
In the future, we can probably expect the new approach to the empire fashion: everything is on steam or some other goofy technology. :::cheers:::
Steam knights on robohorses, charge!
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you are probably right :unsure:
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The Inquisitor books were ok, but felt like comic books forced into a novel format. I'd read comics written by Dan Abnett, for sure, but not really sold on his novels.
I was thinking of the weird old ones by Ian Watson, the ones that end in a cliffhanger and where the shapeshifting assassin chick infiltrate genestealer cults that are infiltrating hive city leadership, not Abnett's books. Abnett is, as you said, better off writing comics.
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the models themselves look fine. They are designed well and look tough bla bla ...HOWEVER they do not look like they fit in the fantasy universe they should be hooked up with 40k as ratmen in space :mellow:
^This. I like the quality and attention to detail that these new models have, but they fit about as well in Fantasy as does the Soul Grinder.
You have it all wrong gents, maybe they don't fit in the current fantasy hodgepodge, but they probably fit very well in the future bubbleworld, which we don't know anything about but the devs mmost probably do.
In the future, we can probably expect the new approach to the empire fashion: everything is on steam or some other goofy technology. :::cheers:::
Steam knights on robohorses, charge!
Oh, crap. I hope not. That would indeed be a completely new game.
There is a petition going around right now that makes several really good points in it. I found it over on Bugman's. There are over 12,000 signatures right now. It addresses GW company policies and their stance on being a model company without consideration for the game. Good read.
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I just saw this over on Warseer. I thought it was interesting.
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/DwarfLeak_zps9d5c4ba9.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/DwarfLeak_zps9d5c4ba9.jpg.html)
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hmmmmm :::cheers:::
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Ungrim stats :
(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205860&d=1421327926)
Not bad... Unfortunately, still the old miniature.
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m3, 425 pts.
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Is that I 3 or 5?
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5
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That's pretty expensive for a model that will never see combat.
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he also only has 5 attacks, so hits what, 3 on average?
Pretty crap really
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He'll have hatred so probably better than 3. Also, not sure what all the slayer rules do but will they help in combat? And he has a breath weapon and if he is taking his time to get into combat a mid level fireball. He is probably reasonably costed, where some of the recent stuff seems a bit too well valued so by comparison maybe looks worse.
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They talked about him over at Bugman's, one fellow had him and his wife test out Ungrim's fighting prowess. He did pretty well against the other End Times heroes such as taking Nagash down one-outta-three times. There's also the fact he's the only hero thus far to fit into a regiment.
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so
fucking
shit.
I could not have put it any better. I was never a big fan of Skavens, but this is just awful. It's not that they are bad models per se, but if that's a taste of what Warhammer will become, then count me out.
All this feels like they are turning Warhammer into a 90s kids cartoon show: First the strange hybrid (Fantasy/40k) Chaos machines, then the modern Dwarf aircrafts (Gyrocopter) and now this - I actually wouldn't be surprised anymore, if they turned Lizardmen into something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI__EW_fPJs
Oh .. and these are the new Tomb Kings!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c__dFYbErxg
Anything goes, apparently.
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There really isn't that much of a difference between this new version and the old one. He gained +1 to S, W and A characteristics. Other than that, all he got was Fireball and a breath weapon. All for 100 additional points. The Slayer rule says that he will always wound on a 4+, unless lower can do it. The Dragon Slayer lets him do D3 wounds to monsters, and the Deamon Slayer rule forces his opponents to re-roll any successful ward saves.
No bad, but he's no Karl Franz Ascended.
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Doesn't matter apparently, one lad at Bugman's just saw information hinting Ungrim's going to go down fighting. Kind of saw that coming from the combination of him being a slayer and his description saying he's the incarnate of fire, for now. Dropping like flies aren't they? :-D
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No kidding! So who would that leave to lead the Dwarfs? Joseph Bugman? Come on... :icon_rolleyes:
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Just wait, we'll only be left with Markus Wulfhart to be the Emperor.
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Just wait, we'll only be left with Markus Wulfhart to be the Emperor.
Or possibly Ludwig, Valten or Luthor Huss.
Some of the Bugmen members speculate the white dwarf himself might step in, can't wait to see his interaction with the "new" Malekith. :biggriin:
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I'd prefer any of those over Markus.
I don't know if I believe the whole so-and-so is going to return bit. The books have shown no indication that anyone is coming back for a fourth-quarter save. It would be totally out of left field. Not saying that they will not do it, but it just seems unlikely to me. We do have Valten though... :unsure:
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The only thing I really expect to come out of left field is Teclis. He was infused with light, has his brother and Ulthuan, though sunken, houses a cornucopia of dragons. He's probably in that cave with them using his powers to hold back the sea and awaken the ancient beasts. Wouldn't be surprised if he and his brother fuse together to create the ultimate hero along with an army of dragons at his back, pretty epic though. :-P
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Yeah, it'd be just like elves to use men and dwarfs as meat-shields.
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Yeah about Valten... this was posted on warseen, to be taken with a TRUCKLOAD of salt.
SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
[from warseer]More fluff spoiler from people that are supposed to have gotten hold of copies in advance
Take with heavy amount of salt at the moment
Middenheim falls to a combined skaven/Archaon siege
Valten is killed by a verminlord while duelling Archaon (shurken to the neck from the deceiver=>off with his head)
Teclis is alive and he does something with the flame of Ulric (he steals it).He's (one of) the reason the city falls
Madzamundi ends on a french plate while deflecting the shards of Morrslieb
Martak is killed but he banishes Kairos first
Todbringer is killed in an ambush after killing Kazrak
Kroak comes back from the dead and shields in energy bubbles parts of Lustria (i guess cities).He's the only Slann surviving at first but he ends going down from the effort of mantaining the bubbles (that then start flying away,safe "into the void")
The prophet of Sotek goes down
[/from warseer]
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No kidding! So who would that leave to lead the Dwarfs? Joseph Bugman? Come on... :icon_rolleyes:
Perhaps some Dwarf current hero will be reincarnated as Grimnir or Grombrindal will come back.
Middenheim falls to a combined skaven/Archaon siege
Astonishing ! Does GW realize that ET is incredibly boring and dull since Nagash ? No ? That was forseeable. Archaon is a big quiche. Unable to conquer with his 50 000 0000 soldiers an Empire devastated by only some thousand Nurgle Cultists...
Valten is killed by a verminlord while duelling Archaon (shurken to the neck from the deceiver=>off with his head)
Once again... predictable.
Teclis is alive and he does something with the flame of Ulric (he steals it).He's (one of) the reason the city falls
Hollywood blockbuster rule : when a guy is said "dead" but his corpse isn't recovered, he's not dead. In Warhammer too...
Madzamundi ends on a french plate while deflecting the shards of Morrslieb
"on a french plate " ? It's a joke with frogs' legs ?
Martak is killed but he banishes Kairos first
So did Louen with Ku'Gath.
Todbringer is killed in an ambush after killing Kazrak
He was hopeless and useless... No matters.
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Or maybe there is no need for such a hero, as Dwarfs will be just auxiliaries to the "Forces of Good" in the next edition....
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Just wait, we'll only be left with Markus Wulfhart to be the Emperor.
Or possibly Ludwig, Valten or Luthor Huss.
None of the above, they're all Finecast models.
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I'm somewhat wary of these, as the previous three books didn't kill anywhere near as many characters off. Seriously, you go and count the character deaths for each army and a lot of people do get to stick around. I can't think of any army in particular that lost more than three special characters, thinking about it.
In fact, let's just do a quick death tally of special characters:
Empire:
Volkmar
Kurt Helbolg
Brettonia:
Louen
Fay Enchantress
Tomb Kings:
Nekaph
Khatep
POSSIBLY Ramhotep
High Elves:
Tyrion
Korhil
Eltharion
Dark Elves:
Kouran
Tullaris
Morathi
Malus Darkblade
Wood Elves:
Orion
Vampire Counts:
Heinrich Kemmler
Dwarves:
Thorek Ironbrow
Kraggi
Beastmen:
Taurox
Daemons (debatable due to Daemonic nature):
Ku'Gath
Epidemus
Skarbrand
Chaos Warriors:
Vardek Crom
Glottkin (sorta)
Festus
It's a high tally, but as far as playable special characters go, this Skaven book promises to add a helluva lot. So I am somewhat wary of believing everything. I double checked 1D4chan for some of these deaths, and they've only added in some Skaven and Dwarf ones, so it's possible we might not see the complete wiping out of the Slann just yet.
Then again, there's not a lot of reason for these rumours to be that made up. Who knows, we'll see soon enough.
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First off, thank you Locke for the rumors and good job Psychichobo on making that tally. :::cheers:::
Now then, I've been giving the allied armies list, between Empire, Bretonnia and dwarves, and have come up with a neat idea to balance it if GW hasn't already. Though this is only if the armies are combined and is overpowered like everyone fears.
Empire- middle of the road army, uses all it's units regularly and with the detachment system. Cannot use detachment system with allied armies.
Bretonnia- Heavy cavalry army, with the Lady's waning power she has given the last of her power with her brave knights of Bretonnia (no need to pray before battle for the blessing). The knights fervor has been strengthened by this new power but it has also reacted with their shared noble disdain of cowardly tactics creating what is known as, the curse of the Lady.
-curse of the Lady, if 25% of your army is Bretonnian then your range units suffer -1 BS, if it is 50% of your army then range units and artillery units suffer -2 BS, if it's 75%< then your units combine the BS penalties with having to re-roll on the misfire chart if you land a one or two result.
Dwarves- heavy infantry and artillery, the dwarves have suffered much and their want for vengeance knows no bounds, all units have hatred. Their gods have heard their anger and bestowed the dwarves a greater resilience against foul magic so they can enact their revenge, +4 ward against enemy magic. Allies spellcasters have been seen driven to madness or exhaustion by being to close to a dwarf throng as their hatred echos through the winds of magic.
-Echoes of vengeance, if your army is 25% dwarf then suffer -2 to casting, if 50% then your wizards do not gain additional power or dispel dice and 75%< makes you re-roll on the miscast table if you roll a 1-2 result.
What do you lads think, would that be balanced?
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Wow, and I though the Gyrofishes were bad. Skaven Terminators... I don't really know what to say..., other than that the background for my armies is going to remain in pre-end-times nonsense stasis, and that I really can't see me ever playing 9th edition is that is the aesthetic. There's a reason I don't play 40k, it's because the background and the models just don't do anything for me. At least they can't take Mordheim away from me.
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he also only has 5 attacks, so hits what, 3 on average?
Pretty crap really
He sucks more than Krell from EoT.
Also: Dwarf who's been an incarnation of a WIND OF MAGIC. Fuuuuuuuuuu!!!! ::heretic::
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Must have been a small wind.
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Oh calm down everyone, there's been no mark about Orcs so far, that I know of at least.
I'm sure Grimgor or someone is gonna just come and beat the crap out of everyone, saving the Old World and preventing the world from breaking apart. After that the orcish warband heads up north and crushes chaos once and for all, bringing the Ascended (the guys who have winds of magic bound to them) with them and they will close the Eye of Terror. (That is a part of WFB fluff right? The thing the demons come out of?)
After that the orcs beat all the ascended with their overpowering army and everyone becomes slaves to them because nobody can stop them anymore.
THE END.
This ending also solves all problems of the overpowered race that is Chaos, because they will no longer be an army you are allowed to play.
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Bonjour, bonjour comrades.
Some rumors. Be careful, they are sometimes conflicting.
From the Warfo (Where is the spoiler tag ?). I will ask him more détails. I will modify my post then.
Pour les news , je vous confirme le tout , il n'y a plus de slann ( mais j'avoue être passé rapidement sur les chapitre sur les lézards) , et le nombre de mort pour les nains est assez énorme : belegart est tombé face à queek suite à une traitrise de Golfag, , il n'y a plus de karaz ankor
Karak aux 8 pics est tombée définitivement, karak azul est tombée face aux skavens, le fort de karak azgal est évacué , zufbar est emmurée , barak var est en flamme, karak kadrin entièrement gazée , les forteresses des montagnes noires, grises et des voutes sont attaquées de toutes parts.
La capitale ne tient que part miracle , part contre azamar la rune d'éternité n'est plus , et le haut roi meurt assassiné par cette !§%¨^ de sneeks . La seul "bonne " nouvelle est la mort de queek de la main même du haut roi .
Pour l'Empire ça s'arrange pas Nuln n'est plus, et middenheim aussi et la flamme d'ulric n'a peu que retarder l'inévitable via l'intervention de Teclis (lui faut m'expliquer à quoi il joue".
Bref a la fin du livre , nous avons une victoire écrasante des force du mal et les "force du bien" sont réduites à tellement peut que je me demande ce qu'il en reste .
La seul lueur qui reste aux nains est Ungrim qui méne ce qui reste des force armée naines à la chasse aux ennemis , bref ça sent le sapin ce "dark hammer"
Translation :
- He confirms all the rumors.
- No more slann (but he says he read quickly the chapter about Lizardmen).
- Belegar is dead. Golfag betrays Dwarves for Skarsnik.
- Karak Eight Peaks is lost, Karak Azul fells to Skavens. Karak Kadrin is gazed. Barak Var is in flames. Karak Azgal is evacuated. Dwarves in Zufbar immure temselves. Fortress in the Worlds' Edge Mountains, Grey Mountains are attacked (Fortress of the Black Mountains and Vaults too according to him, but he is not really sure).
- Azamar is distroyed. Thorgrim is dead, killed by "Sneek" (? Perhaps Snitch, he must have mistaken), but he slayed Queek.
-Nuln is overrun and Middenheim is under siege (he didn't saiy anything about characters). Teclis stole the flame of Ulric.
- Ungrim leads dwarves against foes.
And some other news about Middenheim by a guy who says he read the book :
The battle of middenheim is going badly for the forces of the empire, but ungrim and the dwarfs show up and turn the tide momentarily. Valten duels archaon, and valten has the upper hand for a bit until the skaven attempt to assassinate him mid-battle. The empire and dwarf forces retreat with the wounded valten with chaos and skaven on their tails. it looks like they will be surrounded and destroyed, but suddenly a great chorus of roars- dragon roars- can be heard from the western horizon. The elves have arrived. A great rumbling from the east tells of the arrival of the ogre kingdoms, while the tip of a black pyramid cresting over the horizon can be seen to the south. The stage is set, the final battle is about to begin. thats how end times thanquol ends.
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...while the tip of a black pyramid cresting over the horizon can be seen to the south.
Holy shit, it's the Necrons! :ph34r:
:dry:
Thanks for the update. Be interesting to see how this final showdown plays out.
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...while the tip of a black pyramid cresting over the horizon can be seen to the south.
Holy shit, it's the Necrons! :ph34r:
:dry:
Thanks for the update. Be interesting to see how this final showdown plays out.
Necrons?
Ok we can all agree that this is where fantasy ends. Nobody is gonna be able to harm them and their guns tear everyone apart in the flash of an eye.
(And yes, I know how Necrons work in 40K)
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Just wait, we'll only be left with Markus Wulfhart to be the Emperor.
Nah, it will be the Elder of the Moot.
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Lol, the unlikeliest of heroes!
Maybe their LOTR contract makes them write this ending for anything fantasy!
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I would guess when the Hobbit stuff is finally finished, GW will release a new Moot update :engel:
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A giant hotpot sailing through the warp amidst the other bubbles of reality? That will not help them to smooth things over.
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Seriously crap, i thought forces of order would turn it around with some awesome new kit releases but no, looks like gw are intent on destroying the setting they have spent decades fleshing out to the point people created awesome themed armies based on obscure references like the stir river patrol. All that enthusiasm demolished and i doubt that gw can possibly produce something better. Skaven with nipple guns wtf gw, wtf.
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Seriously crap, i thought forces of order would turn it around with some awesome new kit releases but no, looks like gw are intent on destroying the setting they have spent decades fleshing out to the point people created awesome themed armies based on obscure references like the stir river patrol. All that enthusiasm demolished and i doubt that gw can possibly produce something better. Skaven with nipple guns wtf gw, wtf.
No kidding. There is no way in Hell that GW could ever come up with a new setting anywhere close to the quality of the one that has existed for thirty years, and has been supported by countless books and supplements. No way in Hell. This is especially true with the "modern" approach to the fantasy genre.
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You guys are being shortsighted. The Stir Bubble Patrol anyone? :engel:
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Stir bubble patrol can go f#ck themselves with a cheesecake. I like my shoeless pirates!
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If it makes you feel any better, I doubt their situation will have improved enough to where they have acquired shoes. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if things are so bad they don't have pants.
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You guys are being shortsighted. The Stir Bubble Patrol anyone? :engel:
Great thinking. I'm going to start referring to my Marienburg army as Marienbubble!
If it makes you feel any better, I doubt their situation will have improved enough to where they have acquired shoes. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if things are so bad they don't have pants.
End of Times: Archaon Stole Our Pants
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Eh, from what I can gather there's plenty of Lizard skins to go round.
At least as Empire there's no chance of being squatted *shudders*
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The guy on the warfo answered me, so :
Prophet of Sotek is dead.
Todbringer is killed by Kazrak herd in an ambush, but he slayed Kazrak before.
Valten is dead, killed by a Verminlord.
The flame of Ulric helps Empire by freezing besiegers before Teclis steals it (that's why the city fells).
Kairos is bannished by Martak, but he is killed by Archaon (he finally did something...).
A link to the Thanquol subject on Warseer, many revelations :
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403583-End-Times-Thanquol/page116 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403583-End-Times-Thanquol/page116)
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The guy on the warfo answered me, so :
Prophet of Sotek is dead.
Todbringer is killed by Kazrak herd in an ambush, but he slayed Kazrak before.
Valten is dead, killed by a Verminlord.
The flame of Ulric helps Empire by freezing besiegers before Teclis steals it (that's why the city fells).
Kairos is bannished by Martak, but he is killed by Archaon (he finally did something...).
A link to the Thanquol subject on Warseer, many revelations :
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403583-End-Times-Thanquol/page116 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?403583-End-Times-Thanquol/page116)
Indeed, those are what I've been hearing around around forums. Poor Todbringer, finally got his revenge just to be brought down by the rest of the beasts.
Also, remind me, who are Kairos and Martak again?
You guys are being shortsighted. The Stir Bubble Patrol anyone? :engel:
Great thinking. I'm going to start referring to my Marienburg army as Marienbubble!
If it makes you feel any better, I doubt their situation will have improved enough to where they have acquired shoes. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if things are so bad they don't have pants.
End of Times: Archaon Stole Our Pants
Oh just our pants, that's fine, I'm sure a tailor coul-SWEET SIGMAR! A horde of Slaanesh worshippers incoming! Guard your nethers! ::heretic::
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Also, remind me, who are Kairos and Martak again?
Kairos is a daemon, a very powerful Lord of Change. Martak is an amber wizard lord (the current model mounted on two-headed griffon), he appears in Glottkin.
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Ah, thanks. Nice to know our wizards are kicking in some face. :happy:
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Martak is also leader of the colleges of magic after Balthazar Gelt went rogue.
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I'm getting refunds on what I can. Had just about enough of this, if the Skaven Rat Ogres are anything to go by the style is changing for the worse and the lore which has always been the biggest draw for me has been destroyed. GW have a lot of answering to do.
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Have the book, can confirm. Hammer of Sigmar in the possession of Archaon. Game over for most of the Empire.
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Have the book, can confirm. Hammer of Sigmar in the possession of Archaon. Game over for most of the Empire.
Ouch, that's a harsh blow indeed. It's up to Emperor Karl Franz now.
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Ulric is dead, probably obvious but yes actually dead.
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What? How? Details, please.
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Invested the last of his power in Gregor Martak, the Supreme Patriarch. Martak got decapitated by Archaon, and Ulric's flame got taken. I've only skimmed bits so I don't know if Teclis took the flame like the rumours said, but regardless Archaon's throne is now on top of the altar where Ulric's flame was, and his throne has two hands at the top which are grasping Ghal Maraz.
Arkhan the Black tells Nagash that Middenheim has fallen, and Nagash replies that he knows, and that the Winter God is dead, and now beyond his reach.
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Beyond his reach... what does that even mean? He was planning to get in there and drain him like with Valaya? Thanks for the details, btw.
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Nagash ate the Tomb Kings god of the underworld, and plans to eat all the other gods too. He wants to be utterly alone, surrounded by only mindless dead.
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Sounds like the HR policy of GW. :engel:
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Well, then sounds like Archaon just did his work for him. Dont see how he'd still need to reach for Ulric.
The whole thing is pretty distressing, I think. There are people out there who went for a Cult of Ulric theme with their armies. What are they supposed to do now if they wanna play post ET?
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I'm pretty sure the entire world is really ending. All the current gods are dying or dead, except Sigmar and maybe some dwarfs. Morrsleib has crashed into the world, destroying Lustria. Lord Kroak prevented it from destroying the Old World. He has now died for good, and it was said that he would see the end of the world, so this must be it as he will see no more.
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Ulric got crushed - he was weak. Hail to the conqueror!
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I think need to accept something here.
The GW "fluff" (background, setting, whatever) was something we all enjoyed because we "played in the sandbox". We got to take the setting and, basically, write fanfiction within it. But we also got to play games with the stories we wrote - it was a very immersive fanfic. The ownership of the fandom was GW's, but we played.
Now, they have done what many people (authors) have done - written the story they wanted to write. Think about George Lucas, for example - many people had invested a lot of time and effort (maybe not for games, but for fanfic and art etc.) into the "Heir to the Empire" storyline . . . which is now no more.
That doesn't invalidate that art, of course - I am sure that the interest in Zahn's books and Thrawn fanfic will remain just as high.
GW's actions are similar - and we should try to view them as the same. Yes, there has been an "end of the world" but all worlds end. The fact that, before Jackson shot a single frame of LotR, Aragorn's death had been written didn't change the fact he appeared in the movie.
So, we should try to view this as the same thing - we need to continue to write our fanfic, play our games in the setting we like. "Oldhammer" is a good name for it.
But it will be harder - much harder - than writing fanfic set earlier in a series of novels, because we want to play games with other people and they will be encouraged to play in the modern setting.
So; the timeline has moved on, the fictional world has ended. It is going to take a lot of effort to keep Oldhammer alive - and we should try to put that effort in.
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This is nowhere near the same. It's not the story someone wanted to write because of artistic need. It reeks of coorporate directive. It's nobody's lovechild.
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Motivations are irrelevant when considering effects.
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It's nobody's lovechild.
Mammon's?
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"Oldhammer" is already in use by people playing '80s/'90s Warhammer, usually using old lead GW figures & scenario driven games (like Lichemaster, McDeath, etc.) Might get confusing using the same term...
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Ulric is dead, probably obvious but yes actually dead.
Monotheistic worship of a divine God-Emperor here we come...wait that all sounds familiar...
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"Oldhammer" is already in use by people playing '80s/'90s Warhammer, usually using old lead GW figures & scenario driven games (like Lichemaster, McDeath, etc.) Might get confusing using the same term...
Post-Oldhammer? Pre-Bubblehammer?
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8THammer?
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Man end times sucks ass
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Ulric is dead, probably obvious but yes actually dead.
Monotheistic worship of a divine God-Emperor here we come...wait that all sounds familiar...
That's assuming that either Karl Franz or even Sigmar are still standing when the dust settles.
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Ulric is dead, probably obvious but yes actually dead.
Monotheistic worship of a divine God-Emperor here we come...wait that all sounds familiar...
That's assuming that either Karl Franz or even Sigmar are still standing when the dust settles.
Rumors about V9 spoke about "Light Knights", like KF, who would be the counterparts of Chaos Warriors. I wonder if KF might not sacrifice himself against some Chaos villain, and perhaps this sacrifice will spare his power between his boldest knights...
'Reminds me "Les Chroniques de la Lune Noire", and Parsifal.
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Maybe Karl Franz will get into an epic battle with Archaon, and will be mortally wounded. But the priests of sigmar will secret away the dying body and use some sort of dwarven/skaven contraption to keep him alive. It will be made of gold.
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But the priests of sigmar will secret away the dying body.
:? While performing ablutions?
:icon_wink:
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And the armour will have a baby carrier with a halfling in it that feeds him a nutritional soup and polishes the warp lazer nipples, he'll also have helblAsters for arms and we shall call it the Storm Karl fiend assended. Just cause end times :eusa_wall:
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When the new aarmy book came out I bought...
9 Demi-Gryphs
War Altar
Hurricanum
Witch Hunter
New Warrior priest
Box of Knights
Two Steam Tanks
Griffon
I bought all of this to add to my already alrge collection because I figured the game would change from edition to edition but roughly stay the same. Instead they decide to basically make it a whole new game.
F you GW! (Empire player since 1996)
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Yeah, I started in the early 90s. Depressing.
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The issue isn't just the rumors, but how the (from reliable sources) rumors mesh with End Times.
1. The Gods are dying (see Ulric, Morr and Asuryan)
2. Whole Kingsdoms are being whiped out
3. Characters are dying left and right
4. Elves merged
5. Chaos merged
6. Undead merged
It seems the 6 armies rumor is correct and that we are moving to Super Powered Space Marine humans in a fantasy setting.
This is NOT Warhammer Fantasy Battle this is just 40K part 2. Laaaaaaame!
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That's assuming that either Karl Franz or even Sigmar are still standing when the dust settles.
So long as at least one Empire halberdier rolls an attack die in Sigmar's name against 9th Edition opponents, the Empire and Sigmar will never truly die.
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That's assuming that either Karl Franz or even Sigmar are still standing when the dust settles.
So long as at least one Empire halberdier rolls an attack die in Sigmar's name against 9th Edition opponents, the Empire and Sigmar will never truly die.
Hear hear, well said! :::cheers:::
Long live the Empire and Sigmar!
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Sigmar's still doing pretty well so far, actually. Right up until he was killed Valten was surrounded by a golden halo, and the heavens appeared to part and light streamed down upon him. It's not like the other weak old gods, who have had to invest their power fully into a champion. Sigmar is still in his heaven.
When the Celestial wind was guided into Karl Franz, Teclis briefly felt the mind of Sigmar, and was filled with wonder.
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That's assuming that either Karl Franz or even Sigmar are still standing when the dust settles.
So long as at least one Empire halberdier rolls an attack die in Sigmar's name against 9th Edition opponents, the Empire and Sigmar will never truly die.
Hear hear, well said! :::cheers:::
Long live the Empire and Sigmar!
(http://s12.postimg.org/b02ski6gt/index.jpg)
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"Oldhammer" is already in use by people playing '80s/'90s Warhammer, usually using old lead GW figures & scenario driven games (like Lichemaster, McDeath, etc.) Might get confusing using the same term...
Actually Oldhammer can be and is played with every edition, up to and including 8th. The general consensus seems to be that Oldhammer is more about the spirit you bring to the game than it is about the rules set. As for the figures, yes a lot of guys have lead fever, but the thing I like about it is that you can play with figures from any manufacturer from any period. I personally love plastic and with Werewolf, White Knight, Raging Heroes, warlord, Lead Adventure, and Shieldwolf all making Empire style miniatures I intend to take full advantage of not being limited to GW.
I think the best way to preserve Warhammer as we know it is to embrace Oldhammer.
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Ah, ok. I stand corrected. I only remember a few bits & pieces from when I was regularly blogging & following other gaming blogs.
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Ah, ok. I stand corrected. I only remember a few bits & pieces from when I was regularly blogging & following other gaming blogs.
Not trying to bust your chops, I just like to spread the good word. :smile2:
If bubblehammer becomes reality I think the moderators should change the name of this forum to
Oldhammer-Empire.
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No problem, I would rather be corrected than state the wrong thing. :::cheers:::
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Maybe Karl Franz will get into an epic battle with Archaon, and will be mortally wounded. But the priests of sigmar will secret away the dying body and use some sort of dwarven/skaven contraption to keep him alive. It will be made of gold.
And for convenience sake it will be in the shape of some sort of chair.
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Maybe Karl Franz will get into an epic battle with Archaon, and will be mortally wounded. But the priests of sigmar will secret away the dying body and use some sort of dwarven/skaven contraption to keep him alive. It will be made of gold.
And for convenience sake it will be in the shape of some sort of chair.
Hmmm...
Somehow that sounds familiar.
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Those new Skaven.... things went a little bit too far. It's certainly been the trend for years now, but still this seems over the top. The models are so well done, but just don't fit what I consider to be the warhammer aesthetic. They seem to belong to a different game, and not the fantasy setting I have built up in my head.
But since these are indeed Warhammer miniatures, I must be wrong. I am trying to wrap my head around the new Warhammer stuff since I have loved and played the game for almost two decades now, and I am hoping against hope that the next edition is a game I will want to play when it comes out.
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Just for the record, ratling canons (the Gatling/assault canon spoof) aren't as such a new concept, are they?
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I've said elsewhere but they look like Skaven Ogryns now, the whole armour style and the way they painted them made them look wrong, they didn't look grity enough as if they've been cobbled to together.
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I don't think they were cobbled together. Since the Skaven conquered Nuln they probably had a lot of new toys to use to create those things. Regardless, theycould have been given a grittier paint-style but are obviously made to encourage 40k players fo get into fantasy.
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I don't think they were cobbled together. Since the Skaven conquered Nuln they probably had a lot of new toys to use to create those things. Regardless, theycould have been given a grittier paint-style but are obviously made to encourage 40k players fo get into fantasy.
Yeah I meant they should look more like traditional skaven technology and not so clean and precise.
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I don't think they were cobbled together. Since the Skaven conquered Nuln they probably had a lot of new toys to use to create those things. Regardless, theycould have been given a grittier paint-style but are obviously made to encourage 40k players fo get into fantasy.
Yeah I meant they should look more like traditional technology and not so clean and precise.
Could be GW's "take that" to the warmachine franchise by showing their fans they can make models like that too. You would be surprised how quickly a "my fantasy is better that yours" debate declines into "look how better my models are" or " well, my game has more impressive looking tech so curbstomps yours". Lot of competition today for GW to put up with, I'm still rooting for them though. :-)
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That's assuming that either Karl Franz or even Sigmar are still standing when the dust settles.
So long as at least one Empire halberdier rolls an attack die in Sigmar's name against 9th Edition opponents, the Empire and Sigmar will never truly die.
Hear hear, well said! :::cheers:::
Long live the Empire and Sigmar!
(http://s12.postimg.org/b02ski6gt/index.jpg)
(http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah64/baronn1991/Mobile%20Uploads/1421619948677_zps4b3bc3e3.jpg) (http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/baronn1991/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1421619948677_zps4b3bc3e3.jpg.html)
Ah, ok. I stand corrected. I only remember a few bits & pieces from when I was regularly blogging & following other gaming blogs.
Not trying to bust your chops, I just like to spread the good word. :smile2:
If bubblehammer becomes reality I think the moderators should change the name of this forum to
Oldhammer-Empire.
If the rumors are true about a new combined human faction then they may make a new name for it, probably something like bestellen bastion. So we can probably keep the site name as is.
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Archaon has Ghal Maraz? Pff. Well done Valten, you useless sack of nothing.
I'm really not happy about the quick squatting of Lizardmen though. And I'm kind of worried as to what'll happen to the Ogres too, being the other 'outlier' race...
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(http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah64/baronn1991/Mobile%20Uploads/1421619948677_zps4b3bc3e3.jpg) (http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/baronn1991/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1421619948677_zps4b3bc3e3.jpg.html)
hahaha :::cheers::: *Wight King von Klatz :eusa_clap: the hero of Sylvania
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(http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah64/baronn1991/Mobile%20Uploads/1421619948677_zps4b3bc3e3.jpg) (http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/baronn1991/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1421619948677_zps4b3bc3e3.jpg.html)
hahaha :::cheers::: *Wight King von Klatz :eusa_clap: the hero of Sylvania
I like the sound of that. :::cheers:::
Now I'm going to have to make a undead version of my general and make some house rules for the End Times. "Whenever Baron von Klatz falls in battle, have him and the regiment he's with replaced with Wight king von Klatz and undead units with a similar strength to the lost regiment. (Example: swordsmen-zombies, greatswords-grave guard)
Archaon has Ghal Maraz? Pff. Well done Valten, you useless sack of nothing.
I'm really not happy about the quick squatting of Lizardmen though. And I'm kind of worried as to what'll happen to the Ogres too, being the other 'outlier' race...
Could be symbolic as well actually, in that warhammer is in the hands of chaos. I'm kind of hoping that 9th editions ends up pitting a world controlled by chaos against a world controlled by order. It would definitely be a big change to the setting with lots of warring opportunities, the worlds first at war within themselves to see who gets what lands and early battles of stragglers within the chaos world trying to etch out a living.
Icing on the cake of this being if GW made tournaments where players could decide who got what lands in the new worlds, we'd be responsible for the setting of a new warhammer world. :-D
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Ulric is dead, probably obvious but yes actually dead.
Monotheistic worship of a divine God-Emperor here we come...wait that all sounds familiar...
Whatever gave you that idea?
(http://s28.postimg.org/4hux6z4uh/4216292_0347549082_The_E.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4hux6z4uh/)
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Ulric is dead, probably obvious but yes actually dead.
Monotheistic worship of a divine God-Emperor here we come...wait that all sounds familiar...
Whatever gave you that idea?
(http://s28.postimg.org/4hux6z4uh/4216292_0347549082_The_E.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4hux6z4uh/)
That's clearly a griffon sculpted on his left shoulder. I had always thought those were eagles, so this is a revelation.
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Yeah, I've stopped even trying to keep up with what's going on in EoT. It's all utter rediculousness. I don't know of a single player (Order or Destruction) who likes what is happening. Everyone I know says that they'll see what happens to 9th, and unless GW absolutely completely surprises everyone and bucks the trend of EoT to create an amazing 9th edition where all our current armies are still available, then they will simply continue to play 8th as if none of this ever happened.
If I, as a business, saw my customer base saying and doing that, I would fire the entire staff that took my company in that direction and do whatever it took to hire back the origional creators and immediately produce an 11th edition that returned to the previous world, rules and armies with a very humble apology letter tacked to the opening page of my website.
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The fact that there is so much (anecdotal) evidence of the rejection of 9th and adherence to 8th, and that (very accurate) psychology, suggests one of a number of things;
1) GW have snails in their brains (as much as we might like to say this, I don't think this is entirely likely)
2) GW know all this 9th-ed-hate is just blowing smoke and means nothing - people will play.
3) GW know those saying "8th-for-life, yo" represent a financially insignificant group
4) GW know 9th ed is actually going to be awesome and people are going to be shocked.
GW's relative silence on the subject suggests . . . I dunno what it suggests. It's hard to read silence. But I think it is unlikely GW is unaware of the unabashed levels of hated, disappointment, disillusionment and so forth.
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Oh, I totally agree. If nothing else, I'm sure someone at GW HQ is getting tons of hate-mail. Something's up. I'm holding onto a microscopic glimmer of hope that 9th will actually be very good and we won't really lose anything but special characters. That I could live with. Even a very few armies merging who are already very similar would be acceptable, though hard to swallow. But this... I don't see any possible way that they could say that this isn't a completely new game. I just don't think that it's possible anymore. They've gone too far down this EoT path.
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arent the actual sales of ET books and so on high though? Just because us old fart grumbles dont like it..
dunno.
I still think 9th might be good. I just feel sorry for lizardmen as it does seem they've been squatted. (I can also see fluff easily written to let them back in. "zomg the old ones summoned a vestige of power and created the lizards their own bubble" "zomg one slann escaped and used his power to create one bubble"
remember in previous editions there were 25% allowed allies, and empire used to have ogres, dwarvs and ogres.
so a mixed empire/dwarf/someone else army would have been common back in the day.
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That's the slim glimmer of hope I'm holding onto, but with all of this talk about reducing the number of armies for play, it doesn't look very good for the Lizardmen. On the other hand, I just bought a very large Lizardmen army off eBay for about $120. If you wanted to start their army, now's a great time to do it!
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The "gathering together into factions" things has been discussed a lot; did we ever see factions?
Chaos
Greenskins
Undead
Order
Skaven
Elves
??
The people who get hosed here are Ogre and Dwarf players (because their stuff is just part of the "order" faction - unless one can JUST take Dwarfs / Ogres), Lizards (because they have gone the way of the dodo) but particularly Bretonnians.
If you are a player of either undead, or any flavor of undead or chaos, you can probably play much the same style of army (especially in appearance) in the new game. Maybe some more options - being to have Vampires in Tomb Kings might be fun! And beasts combined with warriors etc. etc. is fun. Ancestral hated aside, the mixed elves give an option to field a truly "fae" army hammering the "they are of one kind, we are of another" home like a jackhammer. I am actually REALLY tempted by that - if the 9th ed encourages such things I am likely to do Titania's Summer Court.
But the Bretonnians are getting absolutely hosed - because (and this is key); Bretonnians are NOT simply human knights. Empire would be getting hosed - but the description seems to be that handgunners, halberds and knights will form the core of the human faction - which is Empire! But the Bretonnians aren't just a particular look-and-feel of knights, they are a whole ethos and idea.
I understand they are getting the shaft because the design studio doesn't like 'em, but that seems very sad.
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I have no basis for this other than my own personal wishlist, but I've been hoping that they would allow the Lizardmen to become some sort of "Bubble Space Police", floating around in their pyramids and intervening when needed.
Kinda like these Judoon off Doc Who:
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af209/mottdon/DocWhoSpacepolice_zps667bbc85.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mottdon/media/DocWhoSpacepolice_zps667bbc85.jpg.html)
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None of the rumours for 9th say Lizardmen are getting squatted. Or any other army specifically.
The rumours did say there would be 6 factions, and even that was contested saying wasn't sure if that was right.
Because of there only being 6 rumoured factions, speculators have decided that means Lizards are out, based on some of the 'Exodus' stuff in the End Times fluff.
I would speculate 6 may be a starting number of factions, as they build Warhammer 2.0 (a.k.a Bubblehammer), and more could get added later, as they have time to develop the new ranges, if indeed any of it is true.
the rumours are outrageous if taken at face value. They did first appear around the middle of last year as the so called "Spanish Rumours", not in as much detail as there is currently, but that Warhammer was ending and a new version of the world and rules was taking it's name and place. People were hugely dismissive of the rumours back then. Including some of those people who have now said the same rumours and have had to concede there might have been some truth to them.
There are several ways this could go
1) GW are giving certain people knowledge of certain things and trying to figure out where they are leaking inside info from.
2) GW are putting out false rumours, as each edition change people get enraged over changes, so they're putting out such outrageous rumours that when 9th does arrive and not much has changed people will be relieved, and happy to continue buying
3) There is a divide within GW over the way to take Warhammer forward, and people who don't like the changes are leaking information knowing people will hate what is coming, to prove their point
4) GW just don't care, as WFB doesn't do well enough or attract enough payers that pissing people off won't matter, and they think they can attract more than enough new people to buy into the replacement
5) Maybe there just aren't enough people within GW who like WFB, they're 40 players, so want to make WFB more like 40k, so they think more people will like the new WFBubbles
6) GW have no idea why people do or don't like WFB, as they don't do any market research (Or so they say in their annual report), so everything they do is a complete guess and they just hope it works, but ave no idea why or how to repsond to demand, or judge what people might actually want
7) Rumour makers are making shit up to provoke a reaction, though given how this could harm GW, you might think they would say something
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Well, do we actually know that these EoT books are indeed a precursor to 9th? This could simply be an elaborate campaign that will have nothing to do with the next edition, simply because they want to advance the story line. I do think that it would be very odd to have an apocalypse scenario where entire continents are destroyed and then go back to playing as if none of that ever happened, but hey, most people play as though Storm of Chaos never happened.
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Well, do we actually know that these EoT books are indeed a precursor to 9th? This could simply be an elaborate campaign that will have nothing to do with the next edition, simply because they want to advance the story line. I do think that it would be very odd to have an apocalypse scenario where entire continents are destroyed and then go back to playing as if none of that ever happened, but hey, most people play as though Storm of Chaos never happened.
But Storm of Chaos could have just been called Siege of Middenheim; furthermore, the Chaos attack failed. That is much easier to ignore than the abomination that The End Times has become.
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but hey, most people play as though Storm of Chaos never happened.
That is because it never happened, since it was offcially rescinded.
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but hey, most people play as though Storm of Chaos never happened.
That is because it never happened, since it was offcially rescinded.
Oh was it?!? I didn't know that. Well, maybe they'll do that with all of this EoT stuff. :unsure:
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One can hope.
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Don't see it happening. But a similar thing happened after the disastrous launch of New Coke, when Coca Cola reversed course, so why not?
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Fantasy is a world for dreamers anyway, isn't it.
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Altdorf is gone guys. I got the book today and after Glottkin, the skaven surround the city and siege it. Valten and his army shows up and saves everyone, wanting to go to Averheim with Franz and his army and some brets that survived, but is forced north by the skaven to Middenheim. Also, the countess Emanullle survives the attack on Nuln. The ironsides are also mentioned as a fluff unit, anyone who has read an end times book will get what I mean, from Tamurkhan, but likely all get killed when the city falls
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Altdorf is gone guys. I got the book today and after Glottkin, the skaven surround the city and siege it. Valten and his army shows up and saves everyone, wanting to go to Averheim with Franz and his army and some brets that survived, but is forced north by the skaven to Middenheim. Also, the countess Emanullle survives the attack on Nuln. The ironsides are also mentioned as a fluff unit, anyone who has read an end times book will get what I mean, from Tamurkhan, but likely all get killed when the city falls
Is it just me, or are the Skaven the winning race so far? They've wrecked Lustria, Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes, Bretonnia, The South of the Empire, Altdorf, many dwarven holds and they've offed Valten and Thorgrim. Kind of an overkill, if you ask me. One may wonder why do we need Chaos anymore, if there are some big rats around?
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It would make sense to push skaven, they're very good villains for the setting and the most unique concept GW have, with a very strong aesthetic. The Horned Rat keeps saying that the Skaven will Inherit, so it's likely the "bubble" that is the remains of the Old World will simply be a rat warren, Skaven territory.
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A very possible outcome Sig, however, by doing so much damage to the warhammer world the Skaven have sustained massive casualties while the forces of chaos have lost barely anything at all and the forces of undeath gain from the losses of everyone. By the time of the next book, when Archaon makes his move, I think the Skaven will be in a very poor situation.
Also, nice to know about the remaining Bretonnians and the ironsides. Any bets that if Karl Franz falls in battle we may see a Empress Emmanuelle rise to power?
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Skaven fight so many wars they end up losing so many soldiers they are forced to join with Archaon, because they can't stand up to him. Also, it's not entirely clear how Bretonnia is doing and what the Skaven impact is there. Skaven, from what the book shows, aren't becoming part of the chaos army, as it's more an alliance out of convenience as they can't conquer the world and fight chaos at the same time. If chaos gets beaten as they are sure to do the Skaven will likely turn on them.
Skaven has wrecked alot of places but they don't seem to have the armies to hold their conquered land. I get the feeling that if the combined Elves went after them the elves could conquer large parts of the world. I think there is a difference to beating an army and conquering a land then there is to simply win a few battles, as people can just rebuild.
Edit: Also Baron, I think the person who has the most power is who ever is in control of Averland, and they could be the next Emperor, as Averland hasn't done too badly and is one of the richest provinces, with the most powerful city, Averheim, left standing in the empire.
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Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different
Quote Originally Posted by Malagor View Post
Well I think me and others here have stated that we would be fine with a new game, a low points game to get people hooked on fantasy.
The thing is tho, what about support for 8e ? That's the key thing.
What if the releases for 8th edition carried on unchanged. If all remaining army book projects were completed? ..Harry
Quote Originally Posted by BramGaunt View Post
Of course, it's possible, but it would contradict several rumours, as part of the range dropping.
What if people has mis-interpreted the rumours?
What if they heard just six factions and assumed that MUST mean huge chunks of the range being dropped.
Mordheim only have about six warbands when it started? ...Harry
:smile2:
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What if GW found out who Harry was, killed and ate him, but are releasing entirely trolling rumors under his name?
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Sounds plausible.
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What if GW found out who Harry was, killed and ate him, but are releasing entirely trolling rumors under his name?
:icon_eek: poor Harry
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What if GW found out who Harry was, killed and ate him, but are releasing entirely trolling rumors under his name?
:icon_eek: poor Harry
Alas poor Harry, I knew him well...
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Now we're left with only William....
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What if GW found out who Harry was, killed and ate him, but are releasing entirely trolling rumors under his name?
This really made me laugh. Kill AND ate. Damn son.
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Personally I would love to see Mordenheim rebooted. The End Times is a perfect setting for this (without bubbles).
I can't see them throwing away 25+ years of a game. I think GW wants to add new things to fantasy, but they tend to stick with what they have done with changes. We see this in each of our army books. A change here, a change there. Tweek here, a tweek there, but the armies are still there.
Ambrose
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Mordheim was my favourite spin off game, I'd love it if they supported it again.
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I can't see them throwing away 25+ years of a game. I think GW wants to add new things to fantasy, but they tend to stick with what they have done with changes. We see this in each of our army books. A change here, a change there. Tweek here, a tweek there, but the armies are still there.
Ambrose
I like your optimism, Ambrose, and I hope you're right. But they're doing a pretty good job of burning down a lot of what they built up in that 25+ years.
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Edit: Also Baron, I think the person who has the most power is who ever is in control of Averland, and they could be the next Emperor, as Averland hasn't done too badly and is one of the richest provinces, with the most powerful city, Averheim, left standing in the empire.
The problem with that is that Averland is lacking an Elector count. The novels "Sword of justice" and "Sword of vengeance" expand much further on the subject but Averland has no ruler at the moment with the population not pushing to find one as the lack of a count means less taxes and levies being raised. Marius Leitdorf was the last Elector count of the province and if it was not for several other political factions then his heir would have become the Elector count.
Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different
Quote Originally Posted by Malagor View Post
Well I think me and others here have stated that we would be fine with a new game, a low points game to get people hooked on fantasy.
The thing is tho, what about support for 8e ? That's the key thing.
What if the releases for 8th edition carried on unchanged. If all remaining army book projects were completed? ..Harry
Quote Originally Posted by BramGaunt View Post
Of course, it's possible, but it would contradict several rumours, as part of the range dropping.
What if people has mis-interpreted the rumours?
What if they heard just six factions and assumed that MUST mean huge chunks of the range being dropped.
Mordheim only have about six warbands when it started? ...Harry
:smile2:
Many thanks for the rumors Zak. :::cheers:::
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I think one thing that should be said is that Archaon didn't really achieve much. He didn't kill Valten - the Skaven did that. He probably would have, but been in pretty bad shape. He didn't kill Ulric - Teclis did that. Teclis confronted Ulric within the caverns below Middenheim, and stole his Flame - which Ulric claimed "destroyed" him. Urlic put the very last scraps of power he had left in Gregor Martak, but it was just the "bitter remnants of a dying god".
So Archaon took Middenheim after marching through a deserted Empire, killing neither the human nor divine protector himself. It will be interesting to see if he actually does achieve anything notable himself when this is all over.
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I think one thing that should be said is that Archaon didn't really achieve much. He didn't kill Valten - the Skaven did that. He probably would have, but been in pretty bad shape. He didn't kill Ulric - Teclis did that. Teclis confronted Ulric within the caverns below Middenheim, and stole his Flame - which Ulric claimed "destroyed" him. Urlic put the very last scraps of power he had left in Gregor Martak, but it was just the "bitter remnants of a dying god".
So Archaon took Middenheim after marching through a deserted Empire, killing neither the human nor divine protector himself. It will be interesting to see if he actually does achieve anything notable himself when this is all over.
So far he's been given every victory on a plate. The Glottkin softened up the Empire for him, now the Skaven are doing all the killing... It's an anticlimax, if you ask me. I hope that he'll get to see some action in his own book...
As for the 9th and the 6 armies... I agree that they could add more stuff, but let's face it. With WFB selling as weak as it is, will GW really want to add new armies to a game that potentialy won't sell? Especially if it'll be Lizards, one of the least popular faction (which is a shame really).
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That is because it never happened, since it was offcially rescinded.
Well, it happened, obviously. I saw it happen, I remember being part of it, and I have the books and WDs and other physical evidence that it happened. Games Workshop have decided to ignore it for the purposes of new material, though.
Might as well treat the End Times the same way, you know?
I think one thing that should be said is that Archaon didn't really achieve much. He didn't kill Valten - the Skaven did that. He probably would have, but been in pretty bad shape. He didn't kill Ulric - Teclis did that. Teclis confronted Ulric within the caverns below Middenheim, and stole his Flame - which Ulric claimed "destroyed" him. Urlic put the very last scraps of power he had left in Gregor Martak, but it was just the "bitter remnants of a dying god".
Did GW ever make any attempt to explain why gods would be dying? It's not as if there was anything prior to End Times: Nagash suggesting that 2520 or 2522 or whatever the current year is supposed to be is an especially difficult time, and neither do any major historical or cosmological events seem to have occurred. What makes now any worse than the Great War Against Chaos or the Black Death or the time of Sigmar? Ulric did not seem any weaker than usual before this or in any prior canon. Ulric was just fine in the Storm of Chaos.
So did GW ever explain why all the gods they can think of are now suddenly puny? Why are all the evil gods suddenly superpowered and the good gods suddenly either morally bankrupt idiots (re: Asuryan) or having utter nonsense written about them (re: the Lady) or inconsistent with prior canon (re: Shallya) or just plain weak and frail (re: Ulric). It seems like the sort of thing that requires explanation, you know?
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Ulric had his power stolen, he didn't seem any weaker until that point. Teclis had the power of the Light wind, and used his strength to steal the flame. Honestly if Teclis hadn't done that, it's highly likely he would have been fine and Chaos would have had a bad time. Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he needed his power to raise up a hero.
Asuryan and Shallya I don't see any reasons for. It just seems like very poor writing. Asuryan is simply inexplicable other than a writer who simply hates the concept of deities and is allowing that to roll over into his writing.
The Lady is them trying to add in a twist. I don't mind it, others obviously do. To me it doesn't really invalidate anything about Bretonnia. So their Goddess had another name, so what?
The Chaos gods have been written as the mightiest gods ever since I began playing, though they really ramped it up in 6th edition. I don't see any change there at all. We'll see how mighty they are when Nagash tries to eat them, and Teclis raises up his hero.
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Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he needed his power to raise up a hero.
The irony is so thick you could choke on it. :closed-eyes:
The Lady is them trying to add in a twist. I don't mind it, others obviously do. To me it doesn't really invalidate anything about Bretonnia. So their Goddess had another name, so what?
:ph34r: :ph34r: :Ohmy: I can't believe you just said that to FVC. Everyone take cover! ::heretic::
The Chaos gods have been written as the mightiest gods ever since I began playing, though they really ramped it up in 6th edition. I don't see any change there at all. We'll see how mighty they are when Nagash tries to eat them, and Teclis raises up his hero.
Indeed, Nagash appears to be the only tangible threat to them, however, I don't think things will go smoothly for him if he tries it. Say for instance he's tricked into eating Malal or perhaps that chaos god of atheism....
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Indeed, Nagash appears to be the only tangible threat to them, however, I don't think things will go smoothly for him if he tries it. Say for instance he's tricked into eating Malal or perhaps that chaos god of atheism....
Bot of whom do not exist anymore. And no, Malice from 40K dosen't count. The Four won't lose. They're the poster boys of Warhammer, more than the Emperor or Sigmar.
Also screw Teclis right in his pie hole. I've never seen a bigger Mary Sue than him.
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Ulric had his power stolen, he didn't seem any weaker until that point. Teclis had the power of the Light wind, and used his strength to steal the flame. Honestly if Teclis hadn't done that, it's highly likely he would have been fine and Chaos would have had a bad time. Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he needed his power to raise up a hero.
*sigh*
Who decided that Teclis should be a supervillain again?
Bot of whom do not exist anymore. And no, Malice from 40K dosen't count. The Four won't lose. They're the poster boys of Warhammer, more than the Emperor or Sigmar.
But Necoho and Zuvassin are cool. :(
The Lady is them trying to add in a twist. I don't mind it, others obviously do. To me it doesn't really invalidate anything about Bretonnia. So their Goddess had another name, so what?
:ph34r: :ph34r: :Ohmy: I can't believe you just said that to FVC. Everyone take cover! ::heretic::
A Knight defends his Lady. Even from Games Workshop, if necessary.
...but seriously, I don't have much to say beyond what I said last time (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=49803.msg927045#msg927045). The Lady of the Lake is clearly a very elusive deity. The hunt for her 'true identity', if such a thing exists, is probably futile, and GW can't be consistent about it. Not that it even matters very much: knights don't stress out about this. The Lady is their Lady. She is theirs and they are hers. What more could they need?
As it happens I don't think Lileath makes sense as an identity for the Lady, much as I would say it's stupid if GW were to suggest that the Lady is really Slaanesh (hey, people of unearthly beauty and every time someone beholds their true form they descend to their knees and vow loyalty, you could have a conspiracy theory if you wanted). I don't necessarily mind the elves believing that the Lady is Lileath, mind you, because elves frequently believe things that are not true. Just ask a dwarf! What I really take offense to is the subordination of Bretonnian identity to elven identity. The problem with saying 'the Lady is Lileath' is the same problem with the old idea that the Lady is Ariel: it privileges the elf faction story over the Bretonnia faction story. But the thing is, as a Bretonnian story, I don't care about all that seasonal Horned-God-and-mother-Goddess quasi-Neopagan bulls--- in Athel Loren. That's their thing. Similarly, the High Elf faction story, with their vaguely Grecian deities and focus on prophecy and magic and an air of dignified yet inevitable tragedy and decline is also their story. Not mine. My faction story is the Lady of the Lake and the Twelve Great Battles and the Grail Quest and the flawed but still valiant knightly sons and daughters of Bretonnia. Please don't turn that story into just a sideshow of someone else's story. Bretonnia's identity is very different to the elves' identity, and it's the uniqueness and independence of that identity that I want to see preserved.
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Asuryan is simply inexplicable other than a writer who simply hates the concept of deities and is allowing that to roll over into his writing.
This is very much the impression I got from the way they handled the whole thing. It reeks of bad fanfic, "Oh, the gods are dying...", careful with that edge.
I like the idea of deities being completely beyond the understanding of mortals, beyond concepts like dying. They're part of the mistery and mistery is good, it provokes thought and makes the setting stimulating as opposed to classifying everything, "this is 2 parts Nurgle, one part Khorne, the mechanism that makes this entity work is like this..." and so on.
Not everything needs an explanation and it baffles me that the writers are pushing so hard for this. And once they do, you get this stuff.
What does a god dying even mean to them? A man can die, sure, but you know what a man is. It's a notion intrinsic to creatures of flesh and blood. But they don't say what a god is, do they? How can it die?
Look at it this way, a car can move, but how can a noun?
And about GW not liking bretonnians, excuse me, what? Seriously? A company making a fantasy game says it feels uninspired and that it doesn't like classical chivalric knights? Seriously? That's like a rock band saying fuck The Rolling Stones.
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Amen to everything FVC has said! I've always hated the sadistic, hedonistic Dark Elves, and the apathetic and savage Wood Elves; but prior to the End Times, the High Elves I had a good deal of respect for.
Bretonnia has waited nearly twelve years for a new army book, and they deserve to have their day. Teclis is carrion. He's a worm, and the scum of the earth, to which the Bretonnians are soaring Eagles.
The End Times began with the death and defilement of truly the greatest hero of the modern Empire, Volkmar the Grim, and I truly hope it ends with some remnant of the unbreakable will and resolve of the great man, overcoming the mind of the megalomaniacal evil that is Nagash, and causing him to destroy himself.
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Amen to everything FVC has said! I've always hated the sadistic, hedonistic Dark Elves, and the apathetic and savage Wood Elves; but prior to the End Times, the High Elves I had a good deal of respect for.
Bretonnia has waited nearly twelve years for a new army book, and they deserve to have their day. Teclis is carrion. He's a worm, and the scum of the earth, to which the Bretonnians are soaring Eagles.
The End Times began with the death and defilement of truly the greatest hero of the modern Empire, Volkmar the Grim, and I truly hope it ends with some remnant of the unbreakable will and resolve of the great man, overcoming the mind of the megalomaniacal evil that is Nagash, and causing him to destroy himself.
Volkmar's aim was to find a way to permanently destroy the chaos gods...
Has he finally found a way to do it?
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I think the problem, FVC, is that you speak as someone who really loves the Bretonnian background . . . and GW never did.
It is a horrible thing, but you cared about it more than they did. And you have that wonderful post there, and GW just don't care about it. And that is very sad. I am sorry this happened, because it was a lovely background and they just ignored it - when it could have been one of their strongest features.
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I wish we had access to sales figures for the past five years split by army. It would probably make GW's motivations much clearer. If the Bretonnian army is not being purchased/played enough to justify spending the money to make new models or even continue making the current ones, I could see the company deciding to axe that line rather than continue to lose money.
We also don't really know if they "don't like" Bretonnia. Games Workshop may be absolutely in love with the Bretonnian lore and concept, but if it's not making money...they can't justify keeping it.
Hell, Warhammer Fantasy itself may be facing that particular cannon barrel...
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why do people think that Bretonnian is getting squatted? .........there is nothing to suggest that :? :? :?
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Brets are done!
1. GW never liked them
2. They never fit with the feel of the world
3. Their models were never that great
4. I know a guy that worked in Nottingham for 7 years. It is indeed true that GW Hates the Brets
They are gone. Finished and good riddance. Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were and I am still angry at all the Love Brets got back in 5th edition.
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If in the end it is neither the sorcery of Undeath, or the Winds of Magic, or uncaring unworthy Elves, but instead the blood of a man made king made god, and the will and resolve of a ornery righteous old bad ass, that sends the dark gods back to their corners, and ends Nagash and his lieutenants, then I will applaud.
Speaking of which, has there been any further mention of Luthor Huss or even Ludwig Schwarzhelm? Last I recall, Luthor Huss was wounded in TET: Nagash, and I haven't heard any further mention of him...
Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he needed his power to raise up a hero.
Why do I get the sinking impression that this could be Tyrion?
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Bromance.
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Brets are done!
1. GW never liked them
2. They never fit with the feel of the world
3. Their models were never that great
4. I know a guy that worked in Nottingham for 7 years. It is indeed true that GW Hates the Brets
They are gone. Finished and good riddance. Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were and I am still angry at all the Love Brets got back in 5th edition.
They won't be gone until every single one of their models is removed from the web-store. And even then they still won't be truly gone until they as an army are invalidated, and even then they will still exist as a Tilia or Estalia or Kislev, until all mention of them ever making a mark on the Warhammer world is expunged from the lore.
So feel about them the way you must, and say what you will, but you will not be rid of them as easily as you think.
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They are gone. Finished and good riddance Bretons.
FTFY
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...I absolutely hate the Wood Elves and Dark Elves. ...
I heard it from others too, and honestly i don't understand this at all. Aren't wood elves the most iconic elves we have? Why everyone has to be vanilla good or pure evil to get some appreciation?
Personally, i think high elves are pure fillers, since the Empire and Dwarfs are "the forces of good" and having and a third, isn't so necessary (i know the importance of Teclis, but he could also be a Wood elf. A druid maybe rather than a wizard?) On the other hand, Warhammer's High Elves are much closer to Atlanteans than classic Elves (and since they don't have Conan with his Atlantean sword... not interesting :icon_razz: )
Brets are done!
1. GW never liked them
2. They never fit with the feel of the world
3. Their models were never that great ...
:Ohmy: IMO they have some of the most beautiful models in the game: Pegasus Knights, Grail Reliquae, Field Trebuchet, The Green Knight, Questing Knights, Peasants, Battle Standard... I think, them, Vampire Counts and Wood Elves are the best armies if you're more interesting in just collecting miniatures (though we have some of the best ones too :happy: )
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Amen to everything FVC has said! I've always hated the sadistic, hedonistic Dark Elves, and the apathetic and savage Wood Elves; but prior to the End Times, the High Elves I had a good deal of respect for.
Bretonnia has waited nearly twelve years for a new army book, and they deserve to have their day. Teclis is carrion. He's a worm, and the scum of the earth, to which the Bretonnians are soaring Eagles.
The End Times began with the death and defilement of truly the greatest hero of the modern Empire, Volkmar the Grim, and I truly hope it ends with some remnant of the unbreakable will and resolve of the great man, overcoming the mind of the megalomaniacal evil that is Nagash, and causing him to destroy himself.
Volkmar's aim was to find a way to permanently destroy the chaos gods...
Has he finally found a way to do it?
If in the end it is neither the sorcery of Undeath, or the Winds of Magic, or uncaring unworthy Elves, but instead the blood of a man made king made god, and the will and resolve of a ornery righteous old bad ass, that sends the dark gods back to their corners, and ends Nagash and his lieutenants, then I will applaud.
If Games Workshop want to destroy the Bretonnians, and all the things that made Warhammer Fantasy my favourite setting and game, then that is ultimately on them. It does not detract from the great things from past years that are to me, untouchable.
Well said! :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
why do people think that Bretonnian is getting squatted? .........there is nothing to suggest that :? :? :?
There is actually little to support Bretonnia being scrapped. People always make the things they dread most their personal head-canon, that's why mere mentions of bubblehammer and lizardmen vanishing are told like it was a stated fact from GW instead of just rumors(even though the current fluff makes those rumors contradictory, if the lizards made the bubbles why aren't they in them?).
Things in support of Bretonnia in 9th:
-king Gilles and his army of Grail knights are unaccounted for.
-king Louen has risen to the Lady's side as the Golden paladin, this could potentially let him bless the knights if the the Lady passes on.
-Harry himself has stated seeing concept work and artwork by John Blanche for Bretonnia in 8th.
-the Bretonnians that crusaded with Louen are mentioned to be with the imperial forces in Averland while another force returned home carrying king Louen's body.
-mentions of all 8th books being completed before moving onto 9th edition, the wood elves book was involved in events before the End Times so why couldn't Bretonnia's book be involved with the events afterwards?
-Lileath's new world will have Bretonnia's greatest heroes from the past as the pantheon of humanity's gods.
Things against Bretonnia in 9th:
-Rumors of combined armies.
-Fluff stating that Bretonnian lands are overrun by Skaven.
If in the end it is neither the sorcery of Undeath, or the Winds of Magic, or uncaring unworthy Elves, but instead the blood of a man made king made god, and the will and resolve of a ornery righteous old bad ass, that sends the dark gods back to their corners, and ends Nagash and his lieutenants, then I will applaud.
Speaking of which, has there been any further mention of Luthor Huss or even Ludwig Schwarzhelm? Last I recall, Luthor Huss was wounded in TET: Nagash, and I haven't heard any further mention of him...
Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he needed his power to raise up a hero.
Why do I get the sinking impression that this could be Tyrion?
Unfortunately, Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.
Teclis's words certainly do seem to indicate Tyrion but there are some rumors who suggest it might be Caradryan instead.
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Teclis said he can't bring back Tyrion without resurrecting Khaine, and he really doesn't want to do that.
As for the whole deities thing:
It's GW's setting. At the end of the day, they've decided to retcon some stuff (shoe-horning the Slaanesh 40k stuff into Fantasy Elves) and write a twist (Lileath being the Lady). Going by the army book and BRB fluff since their 5th ed launch, there is absolutely no reason why Lileath couldn't be the Lady (or Slaanesh, as you say). They never made it clear, it was as you say, elusive.
It's the idea of privilege and subordination of story I can't take at all seriously. Every single faction has been entirely subordinate to the Chaos faction since 6th edition, 15 years ago. I don't remember the 5th edition Chaos book well enough, but it was probably in there too. Chaos has been pictured as the inevitable victor in the setting ever since then. Everything else is just a sideshow. All the gods just shards of Chaos (interestingly this has been quietly dropped in the End Times). None able to stand up to might Chaos. Blah blah blah. You've had a long time to get used to this concept.
What I don't see is how sharing a deity invalidates your faction at all. I said it above and it wasn't answered. All you said is that you didn't like it. I see it as a form of divine accomodation, and it works just fine. Does the fact that she is an elven deity also make her an elf? Isn't she big enough to be adequate for both elves and humans? Why does it make the elven story more important than the Breton one?
Anyway, the setting is best looked at like a comic book setting because that's how it's being handled. The setting exists in a continuum of writing from its inception until now, with different personalities (and skill levels...) stamping their authority on the Marvel or DC worlds. Superman's story has changed many times and all of them are, or were, correct. Even when they contradict each other. That's the reality of a multi-author setting. GW aren't wrong when they have deities dying. They aren't wrong when they have Shallya being Taal's wife (unless it's a typo, but I doubt it). That's what the setting is now. That's not to say the setting is particularly good - I agree it isn't. It has a mix of a few good ideas with mostly bad ones.
Where I disagree is that I would argue that the setting has been that way for at least 15 years. They've just swapped some of their old bad ideas for a few new ones, and some of the good ones for some worse ones.
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I've actually been wondering if these attempts to portray Gods in a much more vulnerable light is a sign that there was originally very little to stop their deaths in the first place - they just never attacked each other (much) before.
I mean, Nurgle nearly murders another God in Glottkin without breaking a sweat (I can't remember if that particular God - was it Taal? - did die or not), and Nagash manages to defeat one by simply making himself powerful enough.
Maybe these stories are paving the way for the reveal that the Chaos Gods aren't invincible - if other Gods can die, why not them? They may be powerful, but Nagash alone caused Nurgle and the Horned Rat to play their trump cards early. And that Wind of Heaven seems to have some trace of our dear ol' Sigmar in it - Teclis recognises it - so maybe all this time we've had a much more powerful God than we initially thought.
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Or maybe the writers do not care about logic and consistency at all?
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Or maybe the writers do not care about logic and consistency at all?
And what do you call someone like that?
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These gods seem to be almost like gods in Faerun/Forgotten Realms. Their power is more of a possession than something intrinsic, and once lost they are no longer divine. The Goddess of Magic was a mortal who became a deity, with quite a different personality from the previous Goddess of Magic. She was recently killed by another God, and her Weave shattered, resulting in Wild Magic all over the world (sound familiar?).
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Unfortunately, Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.
Ludwig isn't MIA, he's with Franz on the way to Altdorf. He was with Valten when he came to Altdorf but Franz and Ludwig went to Averheim and Gregor and Valten ended up being forced north to Middenheim.
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I think the problem, FVC, is that you speak as someone who really loves the Bretonnian background . . . and GW never did.
Pretty much; and I complained about Bretonnian background as well. At times it does seem obvious that GW has more passion for some factions than others. That's only natural - their designers are human, and humans have biases - but it does make you wish for a slightly larger GW design team, capable not only of more playtesting and better balance, but of finding people with a passion for every faction.
why do people think that Bretonnian is getting squatted? .........there is nothing to suggest that :? :? :?
My suspicion is that every race is getting 'Squatted' to an extent, as they are all reformed into these ninth edition armies we hear about. If these are really these six new combination armies, then it's a question of which factions are most influential in those new armies. If Bretonnia becomes part of a new 'human' or even 'forces of order' army, along with the Empire and the dwarfs, I suspect that Bretonnia will be a junior partner by far. It may even be just a few components on the knight sprue, while the army book describes Bretonnia in the same way the current Empire book describes, say, Averland. Realistically, I think that may be the best we can hope for.
I suppose I feel confirmed in that suspicion by the note that most of what makes Bretonnia unique seems to have been pillaged in the End Times plot. The land of Bretonnia, the Lady of the Lake, all three of our special characters have been removed, two killed and one radically transformed, and so on.
It comes down to that point about GW seeming to like some factions more than others. The elves, for example, have done really well out of the End Times: clearly someone really likes Malekith and Ulthuan and so on. (If only he liked them in a way that made me appreciate them as well. I used to really like the High Elves myself, but the End Times seem designed to make me loathe the elves.) Or it seems likely that someone is a fan of the Vampire Counts. And so on. Bretonnia seems to be on the low end of the scale when it comes to GW's appreciation, though.
As Ranorian says, it makes me really wish we had the sales figures. How were these armies selling? But even then we need to consider other factors: of course Bretonnia will have lower sales if its army book and all its models are over a decade old! So maybe GW didn't see potential for investment in Bretonnia to build it up. Maybe they had evidence that the market was shrinking and they didn't think they could support that many armies; rather than try to build up Bretonnia, they could get more sales by just releasing add-ons for the other armies. I'm sure GW know that getting people to start a new army is much harder than getting them to buy an add-on or new unit for their current army. Financially, I suspect that add-ons and supplements make more sense than army updates. (See also: Space Marines.)
The six army model makes a lot of sense in this light, doesn't it? Instead of selling entire armies, GW focuses much more on supplements, and since there are only six armies, each new model they produce can be sold to a much larger section of the fan base. If we only have six armies and they're equally popular, 16.6% of the base might buy the cool new premium model. But if you have fourteen armies, as they do now, the only 7.1% of the base might buy that model. (Of course, bearing in mind that not all armies are equally popular and some units can be shared between armies, such as daemons, the real figures will be a bit different.) Even factoring in that some people have multiple armies, the point remains: fewer base armies and regular add-ons make more financial sense than supporting a large number of armies.
They are gone. Finished and good riddance. Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were and I am still angry at all the Love Brets got back in 5th edition.
You're still angry at the Bretonnian army in the 90s? Back when they actually moved in triangles and the Lady's Blessing stopped people firing artillery at our wonderful knights? That's a pretty long time to hold a grudge. Are you part dwarf?
What I don't see is how sharing a deity invalidates your faction at all. I said it above and it wasn't answered. All you said is that you didn't like it.
Er, I talked about the stories more widely, didn't I? The Lileath thing is part of it. That idea assimilates the Lady into the elven pantheon and prevents us talking about the Lady as a unique and Bretonnian deity. I find it particularly bizarre because I cannot see any aesthetic or thematic similarity between Lileath and the Lady, as I believe I mentioned in the linked topic. I could see a case for the Lady/Isha/Rhya/earth-goddess and so on, but Lileath is archetypally a maiden prophetess. Those images are not associated with the Lady, though.
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It could just be GW reducing the number of Books they need to produce (lowering costs) but still keeping the armies separate.
Or it could end up being something similar to the following:
Take a Lord level Character and s/he opens up all that Army's units to be used.
Take a Hero level Character and it opens up 1 core and 1 special/rare unit for that army to be used.
My 'Human/Good' faction could then be the following:
Wizard Lord
Thane
Halberdiers
Inner Circle Knights
Thunderers
Demigryphs
Steam Tank
Organ Gun
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Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were
Well that is really sad then isn't it, what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....
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Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were
Well that is really sad then isn't it, what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....
Heh, I was thinking along similar lines, in that Bretonnia was obviously less interesting since it had way less support and was far less frequently used as a setting. With proper attention, Bretonnia could be just as interesting as the Empire.
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Well that is really sad then isn't it, what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....
I think it's also that the army list is more diverse? The Empire is, for all intents and purposes, the protagonist faction. It's the all-rounder human faction, and so it's got a lot of different elements, all of which have a different feel. These different elements are reflected in the army list, and indeed they are all described in detail because they're in the army list.
So if I skim the Empire AB, I'll read about knightly orders, the Colleges of Magic, imperial engineers and war machines, professional state soldiers, warrior-priests and mobs of religious fanatics, witch hunters, and so on. Some of these groups have rivalries. They all have different perspectives and they all have a slightly different feel. An army led by a wizard lord feels different to one led by an arch-lector, which in turn feels different to one led by a grand master. The Empire is very broad, and all its different components are given space in the army.
Whereas if I skim the Bretonnia AB, I can only divide it into three different cultures or styles at best: the knights, the commons, and the servants of the Lady. And of those three, the knights are absolutely centralised. There isn't really an all-peasant or even a peasant-dominant Bretonnian army build out there. And the devotees of the Lady are just a few characters. If I want to make an Empire army list, I can make an artillery train from Nuln or a contingent of the Knights of the White Wolf or a ragged army of Sigmarite fanatics or a calm and professional state army, because all those concepts are supported by the army list itself and by the background that has been provided. If I want to make a Bretonnian army list... it's going to be knights. I have a little flexibility - I can make an Errantry army, or I can go heavy on the chosen of the Lady with Grail and Questing Knights, or I can try the classic Royal Air Force list - but no matter what I do, at some point the army's identity is going to revolve around being knights.
I like knights, but it would be nice to see other perspectives on Bretonnia in the army list. I really like that the Empire army list shows you the Empire from all sides of society: the rich, the poor, the magical, the technological, the clergy, and so on. Similar diversity would help Bretonnia a lot.
The problem with doing that is that it might make it harder to distinguish Bretonnia from the Empire. As it is, Bretonnia's identity is being the knight army. If I could actually make an army of well-trained and disciplined men-at-arms, supported by expert archery and artillery (if perhaps with less gunpowder), wouldn't that be treading on the Empire's toes? Or if I could make a 'beastmaster' sort of Bretonnian army, with pegasi and hippogryphs and jabberwocks and who knows what else, might that blur Bretonnia's identity even more?
I'm not sure. Creative design for a new Bretonnia army book would be fascinating and challenging task. I have no idea when it comes to game balance, but the writing part would be really fun.
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Well that is really sad then isn't it, what with the Empire having about 1000% more fluff and source material yet it only musters a mere 200% more interesting than Bretonnia....
Whereas if I skim the Bretonnia AB, I can only divide it into three different cultures or styles at best: the knights, the commons, and the servants of the Lady. And of those three, the knights are absolutely centralised. There isn't really an all-peasant or even a peasant-dominant Bretonnian army build out there. And the devotees of the Lady are just a few characters. If I want to make an Empire army list, I can make an artillery train from Nuln or a contingent of the Knights of the White Wolf or a ragged army of Sigmarite fanatics or a calm and professional state army, because all those concepts are supported by the army list itself and by the background that has been provided. If I want to make a Bretonnian army list... it's going to be knights. I have a little flexibility - I can make an Errantry army, or I can go heavy on the chosen of the Lady with Grail and Questing Knights, or I can try the classic Royal Air Force list - but no matter what I do, at some point the army's identity is going to revolve around being knights.
I agree with this, but I think it's a failure of the army design, not necessarily the setting. For instance, I've always thought it would be nice to be able to field a peasant infantry army. Hell, they don't even have a Man-at-Arms hero, which seems strange to me. Furthermore, the Knightly characters must be fielded as cavalry unless you pay points for the Virtue of Empathy, which I believe is multiplied in cost every time it is taken by an additional character.
Frankly (pun intended), they should be a D&D rip-off with magical elements and character classes but with an Anglo-Frankish culture. I would do something like this:
LORDS
-Knight Commander (Perhaps the knightly characters could be like actual paladins?)
-Sorceress
-Man-at-Arms Commander
-High Priest (Perhaps a Priest of Shallya with healing ability like a D&D Cleric - the prayers should be different enough from a Warrior Priest's)
-Ranger/Archer (Aragorn/Robin Hood)
-Mount Options (depending on character): Warhorse, Pegasus, Hippogryph, Griffon, Unicorn, Dragon
HEROES
-Knight Captain
-Sorceress
-Man-at-Arms Captain
-Priest
-Ranger/Archer
-Bard (Inspirational bubble of some sort)
-Assassin
CORE
-Knights of the Realm
-Men-at-arms (Spears, Halberds, Swords)
-Archers (Longbows, Crossbows)
-Highanders (Barbaric Braveheart Scots with Claymores and no armor)
-Brigands (Perhaps like a thieves' guild - swords, daggers, hand crossbows, throwing weapons, etc.)
-Mounted Men-at-Arms with Spears and Bows
SPECIAL
-Foot Knights
-Bolt Thrower
-Rangers (Scouting archer unit, but not lame)
-Grail Relique
-Pegasus Knights
-Warhounds w/ Men-at-Arms handlers
RARE
-Grail Knights
-Trebuchet
-0-1 Cannon (!)
There is more that could be come up with, and perhaps some ideas scrapped or shuffled around, but this was just a quick brainstorm.
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Unfortunately, Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.
Ludwig isn't MIA, he's with Franz on the way to Altdorf. He was with Valten when he came to Altdorf but Franz and Ludwig went to Averheim and Gregor and Valten ended up being forced north to Middenheim.
You can be sure that Ludwig will bite it. His BFF is dead, so there is nothing in this world left for him anymore. :-P
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They aren't wrong when they have Shallya being Taal's wife (unless it's a typo, but I doubt it). That's what the setting is now. That's not to say the setting is particularly good - I agree it isn't. It has a mix of a few good ideas with mostly bad ones.
Rhya has been Taal's wife in all the fluff for 20+ years at least as far back as WFRP 1st edition rulebook. There has been no other reference other than The End Times: Glottkin that Shallya has anything to do with Taal (She is now apparently his lover - she is not now his wife) If there had been some sort of story as to how that situation had happened, like Rhya disappearing/dying/fading or whatever, and then Shallya and Taal becmoing friends, then lovers then that's fine. Just changing it is fucking stupid. It just makes you think they don't know their own setting
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I agree with this, but I think it's a failure of the army design, not necessarily the setting. For instance, I've always thought it would be nice to be able to field a peasant infantry army. Hell, they don't even have a Man-at-Arms hero, which seems strange to me. Furthermore, the Knightly characters must be fielded as cavalry unless you pay points for the Virtue of Empathy, which I believe is multiplied in cost every time it is taken by an additional character.
That's true, but I think the question of distinguishing Bretonnia from the Empire, or for that matter other armies like Chaos, is still a valid one. If I can make a Bretonnian army with a hard core of elite foot knights, supported by cheap men-at-arms and yeomen and a few magicians or ethereal creatures from the Lady's realm, isn't there a risk that it will play very similarly to the Warriors of Chaos? That similarity would ultimately hurt both Bretonnia and Chaos, because each faction's unique play-style is essential to establishing its character.
So while we might want more diverse strategic options for Bretonnia, we also need all those options to feel Bretonnian. We see this with the Empire, don't we? An Empire gunline and a dwarf gunline still feel different, and it's not just because the models look different or because there are different background descriptions in the book. The units you can take and their unique stat-lines make the armies play differently. Similarly, Bretonnia and the knight-heavy Empire army also play differently. Sure, they both consist almost entirely of mundane humans in heavy armour on horses with lances, but they feel different: rules like the Blessing and the Lance change the way the Bretonnian player has to respond to threats, and they create new strengths and weaknesses, while the fact that the Empire knightly army can stick in a few mounted warrior-priests with bound prayers or have the advancing knights supported by a steam tank add a different flavour. Even if we played our games entirely with little scraps of paper with statistics written on them, there would be a discernible difference.
Therefore, when I think about diversifying the army, the question that I find I have to grapple with is: "What feels Bretonnian? What features would make an army feel like it's from Bretonnia? What makes Bretonnia unique, and how can I represent that mechanically?"
The most appropriate armies for comparison would be Empire and Warriors of Chaos, right? The other human armies. What do I get if I think about them?
Consider the Empire. The flavour of the Empire is a diverse and fractious human realm, united (and occasionally divided) by religion, often somewhat paranoid and prone to internal conflict, with advanced technology and a love of gunpowder. It is particularly inspired by the Holy Roman Empire, perhaps in the 16th century or during the Thirty Years' War. The soldiers of the Empire are often physically inferior to their foes, but compensate through cunning combined arms tactics. So when we look at them on the tabletop, there's a pretty wide variety of units. Empire units tend to have pretty mediocre stat-lines, but their detachment rule simulates their cunning tactics. They use ranged weapons and war machines to keep enemies at arm's length and soften them up before it comes to combat, representing both their physical inferiority and their love of technology. Characters are diverse and eclectic: wizards, warrior-priests, witch-hunters, etc., all represent different organisations and have to be used in different ways, reinforcing the nation's internal tensions. Witch hunters don't like wizards. Engineers have quirky and unreliable weapons. Religion is a major driving force. And so on. The army book does a good job of turning the Empire's diversity into a strength and letting you get a sense for what the faction is like.
I won't do something similar for Chaos because I've never had a Chaos army. But you could do the same thing. Chaos is all about inevitability and power, the coming doom of the world at the hands of the Ruinous Powers. They ought to feel strong. So they have very powerful characters. Chaos's flavour is centered on the four Chaos gods, so Chaos units usually come in four different flavours. Chaos has both rock-hard elite infantry to help make them intimidating - the dark tide from the north has to be strong - but they also have cheap marauders because they should be a horde. Rules like Eye of the Gods help communicate their arrogance and power, as they believe they are invincible, and the occasional randomness this rule injects helps make the gods feel capricious. But it also makes the gods feel present and it makes them feel attentive, since the Warriors of Chaos should feel like they are marching under the gaze of their gods.
What could I say about Bretonnia in that light?
Well, Bretonnia is another human realm, perhaps better united and not riven by as many internal disputes. It has a single dominant religion and tends to reject high technology. Bretonnia has a very heroic ethos and loves the quest motif. Bretonnia is particularly inspired by Arthurian mythology and British and French folk-tales or fairy-stories, as opposed to the Empire's more historical feel. How can these things be communicated mechanically, while still feeling different to either the Empire or Chaos?
In some ways I think the current list does very well. The Blessing of the Lady is an excellent mechanic, for instance. Bretonnia is religious, but it is not religious in the same way as the Empire: its spiritual power is not primarily vested in particular characters, priests who channel their deity. The Lady is always watching her followers, and they try to prove themselves worthy of her favour. But this is also different to Chaos, because the Chaos gods are very fickle, and the Eye of the Gods rule is absolutely focused on individual characters. The Lady blesses the entire army, and her blessing is not random in any way. Rather the Blessing is a favour given for Bretonnians trying to live up to a particular code of behaviour: so there are mechanics for gaining the blessing (if you pray for it, demonstrating your desire to follow it) or losing it (if you fail to live up to the code).
It's actually kind of impressive when I think about. The Empire, Bretonnia, and Chaos army lists all use mechanics to give the feeling that these armies' gods are watching and helping, but the mechanics have been carefully chosen. The Empire has a historical feel with powerful conflicting religious institutions, so it has priests with special powers. Bretonnia has an omnipresent goddess with a strict code of conduct, and they get bonuses if they follow it. Chaos has capricious and nasty deities that unpredictably reward great deeds. It's all done quite well.
Anyway, what else...
Because Bretonnia has a heroic feel, it understandably emphasises its characters, but in order to feel properly heroic, they should also feel like underdogs. The knight is the underdog when he fights the dragon; Jack is the underdog when he fights the giant; and so on. So Bretonnian characters have pretty modest stats: they're decent, but they are still humans. That said, they also need ways to win their fights. An expanded or rebalanced Virtue system might help a lot.
How else can you make Bretonnia feel heroic? Bretonnia should probably be aggressive, and get to grips with the enemy quickly. Heroism is dynamic. Most of its units should be capable of fighting; tarpits and sacrifices and the like don't have the proper feel. All armies need expendable units, but Bretonnia should handle its expendable units carefully. Knights fit this goal pretty well: they fit the Arthurian theme, they are quick and strong, they can be aggressive, and they're valuable enough that you don't want to lose them.
The units you've listed are quite good in this respect. I'm not sure about priests, but healing or protecting magic fits the theme, and I really like the idea of a bard or troubadour hero. Storytelling and inspiring people really fits with the Bretonnian aesthetic, and it's something that no other army does at the moment. I also really like the variety of mounts. A few different types of 'heroic' monsters would fit Bretonnia quite well: what is Bellerophon without Pegasus, or Ruggiero without the hippogryph? We could also include the occasional hero-monster outside of character slots; perhaps a Questing Beast or a peryton or somesuch. It also feels like there is a rich vein of imagery to mine elsewhere in Western European heroic folklore: Robin Hood, Robert the Bruce, Joan of Arc, and so on. That could help diversify Bretonnia a bit more, in terms of imagery and culture.
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Unfortunately, Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.
Ludwig isn't MIA, he's with Franz on the way to Altdorf. He was with Valten when he came to Altdorf but Franz and Ludwig went to Averheim and Gregor and Valten ended up being forced north to Middenheim.
You can be sure that Ludwig will bite it. His BFF is dead, so there is nothing in this world left for him anymore. :-P
Except... Beating the crap out of chaos lords and banishing demons. :closed-eyes:
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I like the grittier Bretonnia that came around. Whilst it is a heroic and fantastical setting, it's also incredibly brutal and a horrible place to live for most people!
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Well, oddly, in Khaine, of all the most random characters to live Caradryan is still kicking around. Korhil, Tullaris and Kouran all rode the midnight train to slab city, but Caradryan still seems to be around, despite averting his foreseen death.
So ya never know, there's a chance Ludwig might still be knocking around. Plus, his death would be pretty symbolic, more so than Kurt's - he's the Empire's standard bearer. He's going to be in it at least til the very end.
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Regardless I don't think the conclusion takes away from their heroics and sacrifice at the time where they were simply doing what they felt they had to do. They were laying down their lives in hopeless circumstances, and fighting against similar odds, because they felt that it had to be done.
This is why I really don't like Teclis. More than a villain, he is a selfish coward. He is never the one to eat the bullet or take the hit for the team, because its the only possible way forward. He is always the scheming worm who sends better men to die for his selfish goals. It is in those men who are unswerving in the face of all hopelessness, that I find truly heroic and admire.
Well said... :::cheers::: It's the reason, why i chose the Empire over Bretonnia. The image of a short bald guy with a book and a hammer, against the huge ruthless warrior covered in thick black armour, seemed more appealing to me, from the one of the noble knight and his poor follower.
The reason i don't like High Elves (well, the other reason besides their looks) is that they kind of steal the heroism of that bald fellow. Being the powerful all-good possible saviours of the good guys everywhere, make the above fight irrelevant. In a way, they bring a balance between good and evil, that i don't want to. I'd like to let that hero shine in a world where everything is getting darker by the hour, so he can stand like the only beacon of light for all the innocents of these troubled times. And he deserves to be treated like that, for he -unlike the elves- has no special abilities, to make his decision easy: will i fight, or will i give up? All he has is a hammer and his book.
So in that respect, in a world where the powerful are either conquerors or uninvolved, our human realm becomes more precious
As for the Mordred issue, when i am playing with evil armies, i usually don't wan't any excuse :icon_razz: It is fun for me to play with Vampire Counts or Chaos for the fun of destruction. ::heretic::
Finally I admit Teclis is confusing me. I cannot say if he is forced to act like that for the greater good, or if he is just cruel. :?
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I love the Empire but I also love anything Human , I have a great dogs of war, Kesliv, and I used to have a beautifully painted Bretonnian army ( one of those regrets sealing it) ...HOWEVER, the empire has so much cool stuff, models, rules, fluff etc. I mean witch hunters, priests, flagellants, smart looking troops, ...I can go on and on... Bretonnia would defiantly benefit from a face lift :::cheers:::
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Well, oddly, in Khaine, of all the most random characters to live Caradryan is still kicking around. Korhil, Tullaris and Kouran all rode the midnight train to slab city, but Caradryan still seems to be around, despite averting his foreseen death.
'Caradryan' 1) talks and 2) serves Malekith.
Caradryan is already dead.
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First off, a most excellent review of Bretonnia, FVC, well done. :eusa_clap:
Now onto Bretonnia being said to be less interesting than the Empire. I find the reason for that, as was alluded to by FVC, is that the Empire is far more actively written about and having a larger variety of background to focus on. It's a medium-to-high middle ages setting mixed with dark fantasy and a grim parody of "the kingdom" trope, If Bretonnia had recieved more focus on it's less known background or even put as an expansion in the Age of Reckoning mmo it would undoubtedly be almost equaled to the Empire in popularity.
Novel-wise it has lots of potential, The Black Library could have written of the twelve great battles of Bretonnia or did a similar novel series to the imperial army novels and make stories exemplifying Bretonnia's fourteen virtues. Though some very good stories were written about Bretonnia I feel there was much missed potential.
Concerning Bretonnia on the mmo front if it had made it into Age of Reckoning. The worst outcome of this would have the experience feel copy-and-pasted from the dark age Camelot mmo. Bretonnia would offer a great feel of being a more medieval setting than the Empire but what else could it offer in terms to standout from other similar fantasy genres? In my vision of a Bretonnian setting, it would have sprawling empty fields where danger could swoop down at you out of nowhere (sometimes literally), towering castles in different states of repair with small villages scattered nearby. The places of greatest danger in Bretonnia would range from the deepest parts of the, relatively, small forests to brooding mountains and hills, long abandoned castles and ruins of an era long gone with druid relics scattered about and stinking swamps where the slightest noise can stir the dead.
I think Bretonnia could stand-out in an mmo by going the opposite direction of such games. Instead of being able to instantly find other players and form parties Bretonnian players are mostly on their own within a sprawling country-side where death lurks around every corner. I think it should really focus upon the player as a hero, in that you are by yourself and, though better equipped than someone starting in the Empire, your starting point in Bretonnia would be randomly made and far from other players. Thus scattered, you are to defend villages from hordes of enemy mobs that could easily overwhelm you and fight monsters and dragons that would require a large force to take down. You would be lucky to face a massive dragon with at least one other player who was a questing knight and wandered in on your battle.
Of course for a twist on this, playing as a peasant in such a setting would be opposite. You would start at a town or village along with other such players whochose the humble commoner to combat the tides of evil. This would mean more co-ordination on the peasants part as your numbers are your only advantage as your weaponry would consist of knives, pitchforks and a, very rare, longbow.
Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes. I was thinking of making a list of my idea but unsure how to make it so it would be well-received. My first thoughts were to put hero choices such as Lord of the hunt and Knight of the lists who could unlock new choices for your army and give bonuses to those ranked with them ( exp. Lord of the hunt allows armored war-hounds while making cavalry he's with become fast cav while Knight of the lists gave infantry units either bards, re-roll leadership tests, or jongleurs (enemy re-rolls leadership tests) while making his unit able to re-roll wounds to the enemy.) . If you lads are interested in this concept I might be willing to write down my ideas along with some illustrations. :wink:
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How else can you make Bretonnia feel heroic? Bretonnia should probably be aggressive, and get to grips with the enemy quickly. Heroism is dynamic. Most of its units should be capable of fighting; tarpits and sacrifices and the like don't have the proper feel. All armies need expendable units, but Bretonnia should handle its expendable units carefully. Knights fit this goal pretty well: they fit the Arthurian theme, they are quick and strong, they can be aggressive, and they're valuable enough that you don't want to lose them.
The units you've listed are quite good in this respect. I'm not sure about priests, but healing or protecting magic fits the theme, and I really like the idea of a bard or troubadour hero. Storytelling and inspiring people really fits with the Bretonnian aesthetic, and it's something that no other army does at the moment. I also really like the variety of mounts. A few different types of 'heroic' monsters would fit Bretonnia quite well: what is Bellerophon without Pegasus, or Ruggiero without the hippogryph? We could also include the occasional hero-monster outside of character slots; perhaps a Questing Beast or a peryton or somesuch. It also feels like there is a rich vein of imagery to mine elsewhere in Western European heroic folklore: Robin Hood, Robert the Bruce, Joan of Arc, and so on. That could help diversify Bretonnia a bit more, in terms of imagery and culture.
I'd prefer to compare Bretonnia to the Empire since, while Warriors of Chaos are indeed mostly "human," I've always considered them to be in a completely different league. The Empire should represent what mundane humans can do when united, which is shown in their combined arms approach, detachment rules, supporting characters, etc. This is probably why I don't like Demigryph Knights because they seem too fantastical, but I don't mind the Pegasus Knights in the Bretonnian list. I agree that a Bretonnian army should be heroic (or even villainous!), but also magical and fantastical.
I've always thought that the Bretonnian Knights should be able to purchase Virtues from a separate pool of points from magical items, and that there should be far more Virtues available. This would make them similar to Vampires with their bloodline powers. They would have a normal human statline, but would have the ability to be overtly more powerful than Empire characters, in particular the Grandmaster.
In addition, the Bretonnians need more options. Knights, Men-at-Arms, and Sorceresses is far too narrow compared to the Empire's options which can support many playstyles and themes. While Bretonnia has the best (human) knights, it doesn't mean that every force has to center around them or even include them for that matter.
Regarding a Bard, I think it could be something like this (for Lord level):
M: 4 / WS: 4 / BS: 4 / S: 4 / T: 3 / W: 3 / A: 3 / I: 4 / Ld: 8
Level 1 Wizard; may upgrade to level 2.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor
Equipment Options: Shield, Extra Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, Crossbow, Longbow, Warhorse
Heroic Inspiration: Any unit joined by a Bard receives a +1 bonus to hit in close combat or at range.
Lore: Once per game the Bard can reveal all of the opponent's equipped magic items within 12" of the Bard.
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Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes.
I included ideas for shadier units since I prefer a Bretonnia of heroes and villains. Even in the previous, bright and shiny background from 5th Edition, Mousillon existed as evidence of this. I think options are important since some players may want to field the 'black knights." A dark lord, an assassin, a sorceress with the Lore of Undeath, some black knights, men-at-arms, and some n'er-do-wells would make for a decent Mousillon list. As it stands now, there aren't enough options and too many compulsory choices that limit creativity with the Bretonnian list.
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Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes.
I included ideas for shadier units since I prefer a Bretonnia of heroes and villains. Even in the previous, bright and shiny background from 5th Edition, Mousillon existed as evidence of this. I think options are important since some players may want to field the 'black knights." A dark lord, an assassin, a sorceress with the Lore of Undeath, some black knights, men-at-arms, and some n'er-do-wells would make for a decent Mousillon list. As it stands now, there aren't enough options and too many compulsory choices that limit creativity with the Bretonnian list.
You and me seem to share a similar mind-set friend. I am working on a Bretonnian fan list right now and I've incorporated some of those very ideas. It will take me a few more hours before I present it, working out the rules and some sketches, but I think it will be a interesting take on the Bretonnian army.
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Concerning Bretonnia on the mmo front if it had made it into Age of Reckoning. The worst outcome of this would have the experience feel copy-and-pasted from the dark age Camelot mmo.
I don't know, DAoC was pretty cool, from everything I've heard.
I've always thought that the Bretonnian Knights should be able to purchase Virtues from a separate pool of points from magical items, and that there should be far more Virtues available. This would make them similar to Vampires with their bloodline powers. They would have a normal human statline, but would have the ability to be overtly more powerful than Empire characters, in particular the Grandmaster.
Something like that, though I'd worry about sinking too many points into a fragile body. Still, I really like customisability - the dwarfs do it really nicely with their runes - so something similar for virtues or chivalric ideals might fit.
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This is what I would want for Bretonnia:
New Army Book!!!
Lords:
- Gilles Le Breton/The Green Knight - He is one kit that makes two different versions of him, both with different profiles. There is the King Gilles version, which should be somewhere in the vicinity of Karl Franz Ascended in terms of power; and The Green Knight, which should be less powerful and cost less points, and cannot be your army's general.
- Louen Leoncoeur/The Golden Paladin - Again another new kit that makes two different versions of him. Mortal Louen, who is basically who he was prior to dying, riding Bequis; except make him weapon skill 8 and give him Heroic Killing Blow. And then there is The Golden Paladin version, which is another End Times blow out character in terms of power.
- Mallobaude of Mousillon - Basically your evil Black Knight 'Mordred' general of your army if you are themed around Mousillon.
- The Red Duke - Another evil Vampire Bretonnian spin-off, and interesting in that he could allow you to combine Vampire Count units with Bretonnian units. But at a cost; such as you can't have obvious sanctified goodly types like Grail Knights, and the fanatical Battle Pilgrims and Reliquay that follow them. You can't have Damsels or Enchantresses either, because they also serve the Lady of the Lake. You could probably make Mallobaude and The Red Duke a dual kit also.
- The Fay Enchantress - Keep her current model, because it is fantastic. But yeah, Morgiana Le Fay is dead, so she can either be historical, or they can introduce a newly anointed Fey Enchantress.
- Bohemond of Bastonne - Old 5th edition character, and Duke of Bastonne. The descendant of Gilles bloodline himself. Besides Louen Leoncoeur, he is the most powerful Bretonnian Duke and Grail Knight there is. He needs a model, and what I really like about him is that he wields a giant two handed mace called the Beastslayer of Bohemond.
- Grail Lord - This is essentially a beefed up Lord who also supped from the grail. He is more focused on serving the Lady and slaying evil monstrosities and enemies of Bretonnia, and those the Lady deems the enemy of Bretonnia; while the typical Lord also has to maintain his realm and people and so forth, and evidently having never supped from the Grail, is not the same calibre warrior and monster slayer.
- Bretonnian Lord - Represents the Lords and Dukes who never supped from the Grail for one reason or another. Stat line the same as the Empire Grand Master.
- Enchantress - Stock standard Lord version of the Damsels who serve the Lady of the Lake. Able to be level 4 spell casters, wielding you lore of Life and Beasts.
Heroes:
- Jerrod of Quenelles - The new Paladin Standard Bearer of Bretonnia; after the death of Tancred II.
- Repanse De Lyonese - Old 5th edition character. A historical character, and Paladin Standard Bearer. You could make Jerrod and Repanse and dual kit.
- Baron Odo de Outremer - Historical Bretonnian character from the crusades against Araby. He could be a Paladin Hero with 'The Morning Star of Fracesse' which destroys his opponents magical weapons.
- Suliman the Saracen - Historical Bretonnian character from 5th edition also. Have him do something with Questing Knights.
- Jaspiere the Dragon Slayer - 5th edition character. Paladin hero with a lance, on a Pegasus with some kind of affinity towards killing Dragons.
- Tristram le Troubadour and Jules le Jongluer - Old 5th Edition heroes. Give them both some sort of Bardic affinity and abilities that help Knights of the Realm and Knights Errant. Jules le Jongluer separately could be used to bolster a Men at Arms regiment.
- Bertrand de Berac, Hugo le Petie and Gui le Gros - The Robin Hood and his Merry Men trio and old 5th edition characters. Revamp their old 5th edition rules and make their purpose to bolster a unit of Bretonnian Bowmen.
- Calard of Garamont - The main character of the Knights of Bretonnia omnibus. He could be a sort of Grail Knight Paladin with a Hero level statline.
- Paladin - Stock standard Paladin. He should be slightly better at killing things than an Empire Captain.
- Damsel - Stock standard Bretonnian magic user with the lore of Beasts and Life. Servant of the Lady of the Lake.
- Grail Pilgrim - A sort of maniacal looking fat Friar/ Medieval Priest character. Who wears light armour and a brown robe, and wields a giant two handed mace. He is sort of like a less effective Empire Warrior Priest. Fit him into a regiment of Battle Pilgrims, who can now be fielded without the Grail Reliquay.
Core Units:
- Knights of the Realm - Their model kit is good as it is.
- Knights Errant - Uses the same kit as the Knights of the Realm.
- Villainous Wardens of Mousillon - Sort of like evil Knights of the Realm, who are themed around being used in an army headed by Mallobaude or The Red Duke. Knights who have lost their honour and so forth. They could be have some interesting special rules.
- Men at Arms - Still a good model kit.
- Peasant Bowmen - Still a good model kit.
- Brigands - Sort of like followers of Bertrand, or imitators, since he is a kind of figure of folk lore. They wear light armour, and wield long bows and carry hand weapons, and possibly skirmish.
- Bretonnian Hunting Party - Yeomen, who are privileged Peasants, on horses, with large hunting hounds running alongside them. They have hand weapons, spears and long bows.
- Mounted Yeomen - A standard regiment of Yeomen Riders. This could be a dual kit with the Bretonnian Hunting Party.
Special Units:
- Questing Knights - They need a plastic kit, although the fine cast models are some of my favourite Games Workshop models ever made. Especially the four limited run versions that are long gone.
- Battle Pilgrims - They need a plastic kit, although their current models still look amazing to me. You shouldn't need a Grail Reliquay to field them.
- Grail Reliquay - Another amazing model. But needs a big new kit with all the bells and whistles of modern times.
- Pegasus Knights - The model kit is good. They need to bring back the box set where you can buy three in one box. Pegasi need three wounds, and Stomp, and to be treated as monstrous cavalry.
- Spirit Knights/Host (Is that what they are called?) - The ones who are the male children who have been taken from Bretonnia throughout the centuries, by the Lady of the Lake, and they saved Louen Leoncoeur's life when he was young. Give them some interesting rules, like being able to pass through terrain or something, and incorporeal.
Rare Units:
- Trebuchet - Nice model, but it needs a plastic kit.
- Grail Knights - Need a plastic kit also. Their 6th edition models are still very nice though. Need to be toughness 4, Regeneration, and Stubborn, on top of Living Saint of Bretonnia, and The Grail Vow. Also need a unit champion with an extra attack; even though they are all supposed to be unit champions.
- Altar of the Lady - A type of Bretonnian themed buff wagon, that is either a rare unit, or a Damsel or Enchantress can use as a mount.
- Avatar of the Lady - Dual kit with the Altar of the Lady - basically a giant elemental water spirit that brings the pain/or alternatively could be some kind of super lore of life healing force and power for your army.
- Bretonnian mounts for characters: Bretonnian Warhorses (ignore the -1 to movement from barding), Pegasus, Hypogryph and the Altar of the Lady for Damsels and Enchantresses.
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looks good to me :::cheers:::
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This is what I would want for Bretonnia:
Quick thoughts:
Ugh, no Gilles and no spirit-Louen, please. Don't get your End Times all over my Bretonnia. Just keep the Green Knight, though preferably make him worth taking.
Mallobaude isn't a vampire. I like the idea of including him, maybe with some options to change the way the army is constructed, though. You'd need to give him some options to compensate for removing all of the stuff about the Lady, though.
No Heavens on the Prophetess any more? I was thinking it might be nice to allow Light and perhaps even Fire. Maybe restore the old Empire-educated court wizards as well. I'd like a Merlin or two.
Moving yeomen to core is nice, and gives them a reason to exist alongside pegasus knights.
Regarding spirits: the fate of the boy-children is only mentioned in 'The Court Beneath', but that story sucks, so let's not bother. I'd rather keep them mysterious or else redo a lot of the kidnapping backstory. In any case. Ghosts are a Vampire Count thing. You might be able to do a bit with spirit knights, I guess.
New monsters seem fine, though the Lady doesn't really have altars as such. Keep the war altar as an Empire thing.
As a general summary:
This is a very conservative list of proposed changes. Add some characters, tinker with a few units, but ultimately keep the army pretty much the same as it is right now. It would probably work fine, but there's nothing that makes me stand up and say, "Yes! That's a great improvement!"
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He is a Vampire in the End Times. No reason not to have him as one. A bit of flavour for an alternate list.
The Bret background needs expanding to allow a decent overhaul.
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I loved that you mentioned guys like Bertrand and Saracen, whom are really obscure by today's standards. With a list like that, even I could play Bretonnia. And I hate Bretonnia, so that's that. :biggriin:
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He is a Vampire in the End Times. No reason not to have him as one.
Huh? No, he's not. Mallobaude only appears on pages 37-8 of End Times: Nagash, right? There is no mention of him being undead. And the fullest description we have of Mallobaude is on pages 31-2 of the WFRP supplement Barony of the Damned, which seems quite clear about him being a human.
The Return of Nagash mentions Mallobaude a few times, and chapter nineteen suggests that Arkhan had been planning for Mallobaude to be given the Blood Kiss at some point, there is no indication that it ever happened.
So: Mallobaude was/is not a vampire.
In any case, I would oppose making him a vampire because it flattens his character. Mallobaude is, to all intents and purposes, a Bretonnian Archaon: faithful knight, some terrible revelation shattered his faith, now he crusades to expose the central god of his nation as a lie. If a Bretonnian civil war plotline is going to be had, I think it's important that Mallobaude have at least a little credibility in his own right. If Mallobaude is a vampire, or worse, one of Arkhan's goons, then he has no credibility as a potential king. I mean, the important things about Mallobaude are that 1) he wants to be king, 2) he wants to expose or dethrone the Lady, and 3) he is restoring Mousillon. Adding vampirism to the mix undermines Mallobaude as a regnal candidate. Worse, it makes Mallobaude just a second Merovech.
I mean, cripes, people, Bretonnia already had an insane vampire duke of Mousillon who tried to make himself king by force. For that matter, Bretonnia still has a living crazy vampire lord who wants to take over: the Red Duke of Aquitaine. It doesn't need another one. Isn't that pretty hackneyed and unimaginative? Far better for Mallobaude to be what he is: an idealist and a blasphemer, the Black Knight who will restore Mousillon to its former glory, prove that the Lady is false, and take up his (maybe) father's crown. That's different. Diversity is good, you know?
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In addressing Luthor's list, it is a very creative list in my view and several parts of it were well thought out. I'm not much of a critic so I'll spare you any opinions of what to improve. I just hope my own list and ideas will look as good as yours. :::cheers:::
Concerning Bretonnia on the mmo front if it had made it into Age of Reckoning. The worst outcome of this would have the experience feel copy-and-pasted from the dark age Camelot mmo.
I don't know, DAoC was pretty cool, from everything I've heard.
Oh indeed it is a good game, I meant no offense to it, I was just worried of people not familiar with warhammer of looking at mmo pictures of Bretonnia and assuming it is another generic fantasy setting.
This is what I would want for Bretonnia:
Quick thoughts:
Ugh, no Gilles and no spirit-Louen, please. Don't get your End Times all over my Bretonnia. Just keep the Green Knight, though preferably make him worth taking.
That's a bit of a problem concerning a new armybook isn't it? As the "Barony of the Damned" supplement and wood elf armybook lead up to the End Times events wouldn't the Bretonnian book be set after?
No Heavens on the Prophetess any more? I was thinking it might be nice to allow Light and perhaps even Fire. Maybe restore the old Empire-educated court wizards as well. I'd like a Merlin or two.
I was heavily considering such a character for my ideas on a new Bretonnian armybook, however, I worried it would have been difficult to set him up in the my list. If he was going to be in my list I was going to put him alongside a vagrant faction "The bountied brotherhood" but it was a toss-up between him, a druid of ancient arts who used beast and shadow magic and a disgraced captain who brought along a unit of swivel guns (from the 4th edition I believe). The captain won out to appease the many people wanting crossbows and cannons, his swivel gunners bring a Bretonnian flair to the idea at least.
Moving yeomen to core is nice, and gives them a reason to exist alongside pegasus knights.
Regarding spirits: the fate of the boy-children is only mentioned in 'The Court Beneath', but that story sucks, so let's not bother. I'd rather keep them mysterious or else redo a lot of the kidnapping backstory. In any case. Ghosts are a Vampire Count thing. You might be able to do a bit with spirit knights, I guess.
Agreed on the yeomen but disagree with the spirit knights. Such mysterious beings should only be under the control of the Lady and not a honorable general.
Now then, on to my ideas for a Bretonnian army list. I'll skip most things concerning points and unit stats as I am not good at balancing such things. I'll leave characters up to debate but believe we should have alot of them and most should use our special equipment from the 6th edition as a new armybook will limit our magic items.
Virtue fix:
-Virtue of the Penitent, hero becomes unbreakable and gains re-rollable ward saves. Cannot take magic equipment or be the Army's general. Can be placed on foot, mounted on warhorse or mounted on pegasus.
-Virtue of Discipline, hero and the unit he is with remain steadfast even if flanked and enemy does not receive +1CR for flanking.
Army list-
Heroes:
-Lord
-Prophetess
-Damsel
-Paladin
Core:
-Knights Errant
-Man-at-arms
-Bowmen, gain mantlet upgrade, replaces stakes if purchased and acts as heavy cover vs range attacks. Can be moved with unit but is destroyed after single round of melee combat.
-Knights of the Realm
-Yeomen
Special:
-Pegasus knights
-Questing knights, can use either great weapons or morning stars.
Rare:
-Trebuchet
-Shrine of the Lady, placed with units with the peasant's vow (if put with yeomen they lose fast cavalry rule). The unit becomes stubborn and gains hatred along with receiving the Lady's blessing. If unit has ranged attacks then they become blessed arrows that are strength 4.
Special hero choices, known as Valiants. They do not count toward hero percentage but can only have one per 1000 points. Valiants cannot be army's general.
The King's Champions.
(http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah64/baronn1991/Mobile%20Uploads/1422133659047_zpszomqkfa3.jpg) (http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/baronn1991/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1422133659047_zpszomqkfa3.jpg.html)
Paragon of the Grail:
-Has stats of the Lord choice and has the Grail vow.
-Is equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-Allows you to take a unit of Grail knights. (Does not have to be put in the unit)
- Unit the hero joins gains strength four stomp on charge and attacks count as magical.
The Royal Tactician:
-Has stats of the Paladin and knight's vow.
-Equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a pegasus.
-Units with knight's vow within 8" of hero can re-roll leadership tests to reform, peasant's vow units must be within 6" to do so.
-All pegasus knight units gain +1CR when in combat.
Knight of the Bastion:
-Paladin stats with knight's vow
-Equipped with morning star, shield, hand weapon and heavy armor.
-Replace all Man-at-arms champions with foot knights, champion gains extra attack, +2 leadership and unit re-rolls failed armor saves.
-Unit that the hero is in becomes stubborn and re-rolls armor saves.
-Blessing of the Crown:
*When you have all three of a factions Valiants on the field you gain a army wide ability.
-Units with the blessing of the Lady can re-roll failed leadership tests.
The Lady's heralds.
Seeress of the blessed:
-Has Prophetess stats and a lvl 4 wizard that can learn life, beast or light.
-Equipped with hand weapon and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-Allows a knight unit to use one light spell from the first four choices as a bound spell.
*loses bound spell if they lose the blessing.
-Unit she is with re-rolls ward saves vs enemy magic targeting the unit.
Dame of the Rose:
-Has Paladin stats and knight's vow.
-Equipped with lance, hand weapon, heavy armor, shield and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-Questing knights become Defenders of virtue, they gain 5+ ward save and are stubborn.
-Hero has killing blow and as long as hero has the blessing the hero gains +1 attack and unit with hero gains re-rollable ward saves.
Crusader of the Grail:
-Has Paladin stats and vow of the quest.
-Equipped with morning star, hand weapon, heavy armor, shield and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-Allows you to take a unit of Grail knights.
-units with blessing gain hatred, unit with hero re-rolls wounds and becomes immune to psychology.
-Favored by the Lady.
*Do not have to pray for the blessing and units with the blessing can re-roll ward saves.
The defenders of the Realm
Lord of the Hunt:
-Has Lord stats and knight's vow.
-Equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-Allows the use of Hobelars.
*Yeoman without bows but with +1 strength and toughness.
-Unit joined by hero and has knight's vow becomes fast cavalry.
Knight of the Lists:
-Has Paladin stats and knight's vow.
-Equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-Unit's with knight's vow can re-roll hits on the charge and gain +1CR.
-Unit with knight's vow joined by hero can re-roll wounds.
The Traveling Troubadour:
-Has Paladin stats and knight's vow.
-Equipped with hand weapon, light armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-All musicians are replaced with minstrels and gives units +1 leadership.
-Unit with hero can re-roll leadership tests.
Guidance of the Lady.
*Units with the blessing don't have to take dangerous terrain tests.
The Bountied Brotherhood.
Fallen champion:
-Lord stats and has questing vow.
-Equipped with greatsword, shield, hand weapon and heavy armor.
-hero has killing blow, ASF and makes unit he's with stubborn.
-Units with peasant's duty that are within 12" of the hero use his leadership and become stubborn.
The Bowmaster:
-Paladin stats and has peasant's duty.
-Equipped with longbow, hand weapon and light armor.
-Bowmen champions are replaced with rangers, bowmen gain +1BS and re-roll hits.
-Hero has sniper and killing blow, the unit hero is with gains the scout rule and front two ranks fire twice.
The disgraced Captain:
-Paladin stats and knight's vow.
-Equipped with hand weapon and light armor.
-Allows the use of Swivel guns.
*special choice with move-or-shoot and armor piercing, has strength 5 attacks.(bowmen stats)
-Hero gives his unit re-rollable leadership and ambush rules if unit has peasant's duty.
Strength of the People.
*Units with peasant's duty gain +2 LD and +1WS.
The Black Court.
Sorceress of Shadows:
-Has Prophetess stats and is a Lv4 wizard of shadow and death magic.
-Equipped with hand weapon and Pegasus.
-Can have either a chimera or hydra.
Knight of Dread Omens:
-Has Paladin stats and questing vow.
-Equipped with great weapon, shield, shield, hand weapon and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
-Makes questing knights become Exiles, they gain hatred and cause fear.
-Hero re-rolls hits and wounds and unit he is with causes fear.
The Macabre Jongleur:
-Damsel stats and is a Lv2 wizard of shadow magic.
-Equipped with morning star and light armor.
-Units with peasant's duty have their champions replaced with troupe of demise, enemies have to re-roll successful hits against those units.
-Hero makes enemies re-roll hits against the hero's unit and gives the unit poisoned attacks.
Aura of Miasma.
*Units with the blessing replace the ward saves with poisoned attacks, negates abilities reliant on the blessing.
Those are my ideas, the valiants are to lend a variety to the army by unlocking new units or abilities for you soldiers. An example is by taking the Knight of the Bastion you can focus on a heavy infantry force. I'll edit more sketches and rules later when I have time
Hope you lads like my ideas. :smile2:
Edit: finally put down the rules for the rest of the Valiants. If you lads like the idea I might make concept sketches to go along with them. :wink:
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I worded my original post wrong. But having read the End Times: Nagash, I know who Mallobaude is, and never intended for him to be a Vampire, but more akin to what Mordred was to Arthur.
He doesn't believe in chivalry, and essentially his creed is "might makes right" or "the strong rule the weak". In not being able to make use of the Servants of the Lady, and those who fervently worship them, he would have access to Vampire Counts units, including Necromancer magic user types and such.
In terms of the War Altar/Buff Wagon thing. Actually what I think would work a lot better, and fit the lore and such, would be a full blown Grail Chapel, that is like a unit and a piece of terrain at the same time.
Otherwise, I mixed up another thing, in that it was Armand of Aquitaine who was the Bretonnian Paladin Standard Bearer, and not Tancred II, who is likewise dead also, but instead his story was about Heimrich Kemmler being his arch enemy, much like the original Tancred of Quenelles.
Otherwise, two more hero units that could be looked at are, Hermit Knights, and the Knight of the Perilous Lance.
- Hermit Knights are those who almost went all the way in the quest to sup from the grail, but for one reason or another, didn't, and spend their days protecting Grail Chapels, and living as long bearded hermits. They could be Knights on foot, with a slightly superior profile to the stock standard Paladin, and have some interesting special rules.[/b]
- The Knight of the Perilous Lance, is the homage to the folk tale about the Knight who would show up to jousting tournaments, but would never take his helmet off, and would rarely speak, and no one would know who he is, aside from that he is a Knight of great martial prowess and rightly feared.
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I really liked the knight of the perilous lance, it would be great to see him back.
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That's a bit of a problem concerning a new armybook isn't it? As the "Barony of the Damned" supplement and wood elf armybook lead up to the End Times events wouldn't the Bretonnian book be set after?
Just because GW's gone mad doesn't mean I have to.
(Barony of the Damned is WFRP 2nd edition and so is actually set after the Storm of Chaos, incidentally.)
I was heavily considering such a character for my ideas on a new Bretonnian armybook, however, I worried it would have been difficult to set him up in the my list.
I was thinking of redoing some of Bretonnia's magical traditions. Court wizards fit their aesthetic quite nicely and feel different to the centralised Colleges, and enable storytelling possibilities. The abduction of children is creepy and has a nice fairy-tale-horror feel, but it does create roleplaying problems: firstly because it's very hard to play a Bretonnian wizard, and secondly because it's the sort of thing that creates player arguments, bad feelings, and if online, sometimes flame wars.
I think I might restrict the 'super-mage chosen by the Lady' thing to the Fay Enchantress herself, and then establish Bretonnia as a bit like Caithness in Banestorm. Bretonnian wizards are typically either educated abroad or are taught their craft via a master-apprentice system. Reclusive wizards with towers in the wilderness, or looking after holy sites, that sort of thing, with no organised or centralised tradition.
Now then, on to my ideas for a Bretonnian army list.
Looks mostly like a tweak of the Reynolds AB, to me.
He doesn't believe in chivalry, and essentially his creed is "might makes right" or "the strong rule the weak". In not being able to make use of the Servants of the Lady, and those who fervently worship them, he would have access to Vampire Counts units, including Necromancer magic user types and such.
I think I'd like to treat Mallobaude as someone with a little more integrity than that. Evil, yes, but Mallobaude is still a knight. (I liked the note in Barony of the Damned that Mallobaude will not execute or murder captured knights. He will always challenge them to a duel. Knights are courteous and they respect each other. Granted, these duels are usually one-sided, but even so, Mallobaude still follows the laws of honour.)
I'm not sure I'd take a Mordred angle here. The thing is, Mordred is ultimately an opportunist, not the sole or primary cause of Camelot's fall. That fall was the result of a tragic confluence of factors: adultery, treachery, feuds, and so on. I don't think I want to fit Mallobaude into that story, because Mallobaude's story is so completely about the Lady of the Lake; and Bretonnia's Lady of the Lake is too fundamentally different to any of the Arthurian ladies of the lake.
He doesn't believe in chivalry, and essentially his creed is "might makes right" or "the strong rule the weak". In not being able to make use of the Servants of the Lady, and those who fervently worship them, he would have access to Vampire Counts units, including Necromancer magic user types and such.
Do we really need to bring the bloody vampires in here?
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Listening to this discussion wants me to make a "dark knight" (natch) army - I have taken some of those motifs for my existing force, but that is based on the Catholic hospitaliers and pagan Hellenic legends.
If the new edition keeps the Brets, and if it is not some dreadful horror I cannot bear, I really think I might start a "dark knight" army using some of legends of Arthur, Mordred, and even the Shadow Court of the Fae. You have inspired me!
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Probably not what you had in mind, but I couldn't resist. Sorry about the crappy light.
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/1200x/a7/ef/10/a7ef104f18e9e5b4585216a68832ecc4.jpg)
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/1200x/c7/0c/26/c70c26c96efa9cde482b3ab9a5f73f62.jpg)
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Stunning stuff Graf. :ph34r: Truly inspiring!
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:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
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As it happens I don't think Lileath makes sense as an identity for the Lady, much as I would say it's stupid if GW were to suggest that the Lady is really Slaanesh (hey, people of unearthly beauty and every time someone beholds their true form they descend to their knees and vow loyalty, you could have a conspiracy theory if you wanted). I don't necessarily mind the elves believing that the Lady is Lileath, mind you, because elves frequently believe things that are not true. Just ask a dwarf! What I really take offense to is the subordination of Bretonnian identity to elven identity. The problem with saying 'the Lady is Lileath' is the same problem with the old idea that the Lady is Ariel: it privileges the elf faction story over the Bretonnia faction story. But the thing is, as a Bretonnian story, I don't care about all that seasonal Horned-God-and-mother-Goddess quasi-Neopagan bulls--- in Athel Loren. That's their thing. Similarly, the High Elf faction story, with their vaguely Grecian deities and focus on prophecy and magic and an air of dignified yet inevitable tragedy and decline is also their story. Not mine. My faction story is the Lady of the Lake and the Twelve Great Battles and the Grail Quest and the flawed but still valiant knightly sons and daughters of Bretonnia. Please don't turn that story into just a sideshow of someone else's story. Bretonnia's identity is very different to the elves' identity, and it's the uniqueness and independence of that identity that I want to see preserved.
I just had to join the conversation here. I completely agree with you, FVC. But the likelihood of this happening is pretty high. Why? Because elves seem to be the go-to guys in all fantasy. And that pisses me off. Tolkien started it, you know. He was the first to say that the elves were the "Firstborn" in the Silmarillion and all of them are all really tragic heroes and so on and so on. But all it really does is make them llook like gigantic doucheholes the size of the Grand Canyon. Elrond was a douchehole. He could've saved all the world so much trouble if he'd just kicked Isildur into the fires of Mount Doom. But no. Because he was a douchehole. He could've done it for selfish reasons (No Aragorn means no losing Arwen to mortality) or for altruistic reasons (No Ring means no chance of Sauron ever returning). This guy could see the future, and saw first hand the rise of Melkor. And yet he was still a gigantic douchehole.
Elves in GW are just as bad. Teclis being the main magician that taught the puny humans how to utilize magic (but not all! They are way too frail for that!) Or the whole affair with the dwarves. They knew the worst insult was to cut off their beards. And they did it anyway. And not once did the high elves consider the fact "Oh hey, there are other, nasty elves out there. Keep an eye out for them". Not once did they tell the elves. They are doucheholes so full of themselves and convinced of their own superiority that they become the worst race ever.
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Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes.
I included ideas for shadier units since I prefer a Bretonnia of heroes and villains. Even in the previous, bright and shiny background from 5th Edition, Mousillon existed as evidence of this. I think options are important since some players may want to field the 'black knights." A dark lord, an assassin, a sorceress with the Lore of Undeath, some black knights, men-at-arms, and some n'er-do-wells would make for a decent Mousillon list. As it stands now, there aren't enough options and too many compulsory choices that limit creativity with the Bretonnian list.
I wouldn't get your hopes up about Mousillon. The way I see it, and I suspect that GW does too, is that Mousillon is just there to provide contrast, like Sylvania does for the Empire. "It's not all fun and games here, guys! There's a few zombies here too!"
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Stunning stuff Graf. :ph34r: Truly inspiring!
:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
Thanks guys, In this case I can wholeheartedly join in the praise because while I own this lovely army I did not paint it. A few years ago I was in my local game store trying to talk the owner into selling me his custom painted Empire army. Probably to throw me off the sent he told me about a Vampire Counts army painted up using Bretonnian models that he was trying to sell for a third party. It seems the painter was getting ready to go to Law School and needed the cash. As soon as I saw it I fell in love, the whole thing is really well done, but the knights are the real selling point. Just stunning. Really the pictures I took do not do them justice. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the guy that did them. Poor bastard, if he made it through Law School he has probably figured out that nothing he will ever do as a lawyer will be as epic as painting that army. Glad you like it though. I really need to take it out of the case and play with it, but it's just so damn pretty.
I see why they call you The Red Graf. That is an amazing conversion, and I have to ask, what head is that you have used for him? He kind of looks like a red version of Berenduin of Bastonne, who looks like your model, but his colour scheme is blue and white, and he has that chainmail coif head also.
No, no, I'm the Red Graf, that's the Red Duke. No relation I assure you sir. I always imagined that the Red Graf was an Imperial Noble from Ostland. Perhaps a former mercenary from a proud family who was none the less tainted by rumors of Slaanesh worship. ::heretic::
I am afraid I can't help with info about the model, other than to say that the horse started out as the Green Knights mount.
I got a request to show some more pictures of this army. If I start a thread in the brush and pallet am I breaking the rules by displaying a non Empire army?
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I wouldn't think so. People display all kinds of stuff in there.
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You can post any warhammer army in the B&P...
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And there are even some posts of things that aren't Warhammer, but are modelling, and some things that aren't modelling, but are artistic. It is pretty free-for-all in what is allowed there. Is it visual art? Goes in there.
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It is pretty free-for-all in what is allowed there.
A bit like the Back Table - although that is more Brush & Toilette.