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Author Topic: Skaven rumors ( booo) End of Times, new pics + spoilers, Skaven 40k ?? WHAT!  (Read 155843 times)

Offline Baron von Klatz

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Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he  needed his power to raise up a hero.

The irony is so thick you could choke on it. :closed-eyes:

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The Lady is them trying to add in a twist. I don't mind it, others obviously do. To me it doesn't really invalidate anything about Bretonnia. So their Goddess had another name, so what?

 :ph34r: :ph34r: :Ohmy: I can't believe you just said that to FVC. Everyone take cover! ::heretic::

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The Chaos gods have been written as the mightiest gods ever since I began playing, though they really ramped it up in 6th edition. I don't see any change there at all. We'll see how mighty they are when Nagash tries to eat them, and Teclis raises up his hero.

Indeed, Nagash appears to be the only tangible threat to them, however, I don't think things will go smoothly for him if he tries it. Say for instance he's tricked into eating Malal or perhaps that chaos god of atheism....
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Offline Xathrodox86

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Indeed, Nagash appears to be the only tangible threat to them, however, I don't think things will go smoothly for him if he tries it. Say for instance he's tricked into eating Malal or perhaps that chaos god of atheism....

Bot of whom do not exist anymore. And no, Malice from 40K dosen't count. The Four won't lose. They're the poster boys of Warhammer, more than the Emperor or Sigmar.

Also screw Teclis right in his pie hole. I've never seen a bigger Mary Sue than him.
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Offline FVC

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Ulric had his power stolen, he didn't seem any weaker until that point. Teclis had the power of the Light wind, and used his strength to steal the flame. Honestly if Teclis hadn't done that, it's highly likely he would have been fine and Chaos would have had a bad time. Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he  needed his power to raise up a hero.

*sigh*

Who decided that Teclis should be a supervillain again?

Bot of whom do not exist anymore. And no, Malice from 40K dosen't count. The Four won't lose. They're the poster boys of Warhammer, more than the Emperor or Sigmar.

But Necoho and Zuvassin are cool. :(

The Lady is them trying to add in a twist. I don't mind it, others obviously do. To me it doesn't really invalidate anything about Bretonnia. So their Goddess had another name, so what?
:ph34r: :ph34r: :Ohmy: I can't believe you just said that to FVC. Everyone take cover! ::heretic::

A Knight defends his Lady. Even from Games Workshop, if necessary.

...but seriously, I don't have much to say beyond what I said last time. The Lady of the Lake is clearly a very elusive deity. The hunt for her 'true identity', if such a thing exists, is probably futile, and GW can't be consistent about it. Not that it even matters very much: knights don't stress out about this. The Lady is their Lady. She is theirs and they are hers. What more could they need?

As it happens I don't think Lileath makes sense as an identity for the Lady, much as I would say it's stupid if GW were to suggest that the Lady is really Slaanesh (hey, people of unearthly beauty and every time someone beholds their true form they descend to their knees and vow loyalty, you could have a conspiracy theory if you wanted). I don't necessarily mind the elves believing that the Lady is Lileath, mind you, because elves frequently believe things that are not true. Just ask a dwarf! What I really take offense to is the subordination of Bretonnian identity to elven identity. The problem with saying 'the Lady is Lileath' is the same problem with the old idea that the Lady is Ariel: it privileges the elf faction story over the Bretonnia faction story. But the thing is, as a Bretonnian story, I don't care about all that seasonal Horned-God-and-mother-Goddess quasi-Neopagan bulls--- in Athel Loren. That's their thing. Similarly, the High Elf faction story, with their vaguely Grecian deities and focus on prophecy and magic and an air of dignified yet inevitable tragedy and decline is also their story. Not mine. My faction story is the Lady of the Lake and the Twelve Great Battles and the Grail Quest and the flawed but still valiant knightly sons and daughters of Bretonnia. Please don't turn that story into just a sideshow of someone else's story. Bretonnia's identity is very different to the elves' identity, and it's the uniqueness and independence of that identity that I want to see preserved.

Offline Franz Volker

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Asuryan is simply inexplicable other than a writer who simply hates the concept of deities and is allowing that to roll over into his writing.

This is very much the impression I got from the way they handled the whole thing. It reeks of bad fanfic, "Oh, the gods are dying...", careful with that edge.
I like the idea of deities being completely beyond the understanding of mortals, beyond concepts like dying. They're part of the mistery and mistery is good, it provokes thought and makes the setting stimulating as opposed to classifying everything, "this is 2 parts Nurgle, one part Khorne, the mechanism that makes this entity work is like this..." and so on.
Not everything needs an explanation and it baffles me that the writers are pushing so hard for this. And once they do, you get this stuff.
What does a god dying even mean to them? A man can die, sure, but you know what a man is. It's a notion intrinsic to creatures of flesh and blood. But they don't say what a god is, do they? How can it die?

Look at it this way, a car can move, but how can a noun?

And about GW not liking bretonnians, excuse me, what? Seriously? A company making a fantasy game says it feels uninspired and that it doesn't like classical chivalric knights? Seriously? That's like a rock band saying fuck The Rolling Stones.

Offline Luthor

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Amen to everything FVC has said! I've always hated the sadistic, hedonistic Dark Elves, and the apathetic and savage Wood Elves; but prior to the End Times, the High Elves I had a good deal of respect for.

Bretonnia has waited nearly twelve years for a new army book, and they deserve to have their day. Teclis is carrion. He's a worm, and the scum of the earth, to which the Bretonnians are soaring Eagles.

The End Times began with the death and defilement of truly the greatest hero of the modern Empire, Volkmar the Grim, and I truly hope it ends with some remnant of the unbreakable will and resolve of the great man, overcoming the mind of the megalomaniacal evil that is Nagash, and causing him to destroy himself.

Offline Jomppexx

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Amen to everything FVC has said! I've always hated the sadistic, hedonistic Dark Elves, and the apathetic and savage Wood Elves; but prior to the End Times, the High Elves I had a good deal of respect for.

Bretonnia has waited nearly twelve years for a new army book, and they deserve to have their day. Teclis is carrion. He's a worm, and the scum of the earth, to which the Bretonnians are soaring Eagles.

The End Times began with the death and defilement of truly the greatest hero of the modern Empire, Volkmar the Grim, and I truly hope it ends with some remnant of the unbreakable will and resolve of the great man, overcoming the mind of the megalomaniacal evil that is Nagash, and causing him to destroy himself.
Volkmar's aim was to find a way to permanently destroy the chaos gods...
Has he finally found a way to do it?
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Offline Darknight

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I think the problem, FVC, is that you speak as someone who really loves the Bretonnian background . . . and GW never did.

It is a horrible thing, but you cared about it more than they did. And you have that wonderful post there, and GW just don't care about it. And that is very sad. I am sorry this happened, because it was a lovely background and they just ignored it - when it could have been one of their strongest features.
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Offline Ranorian

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I wish we had access to sales figures for the past five years split by army. It would probably make GW's motivations much clearer. If the Bretonnian army is not being purchased/played enough to justify spending the money to make new models or even continue making the current ones, I could see the company deciding to axe that line rather than continue to lose money.

We also don't really know if they "don't like" Bretonnia. Games Workshop may be absolutely in love with the Bretonnian lore and concept, but if it's not making money...they can't justify keeping it.

Hell, Warhammer Fantasy itself may be facing that particular cannon barrel...
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Offline Luthor

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« Reply #433 on: January 21, 2015, 07:32:26 PM »
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« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 08:59:19 PM by Luthor »

Offline Zak

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why do people think that Bretonnian is getting squatted? .........there is nothing to suggest that  :? :? :?
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Offline Luthor

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« Reply #435 on: January 21, 2015, 07:59:16 PM »
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« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 08:59:33 PM by Luthor »

Offline Talben21

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Brets are done!

1. GW never liked them
2. They never fit with the feel of the world
3. Their models were never that great
4. I know a guy that worked in Nottingham for 7 years. It is indeed true that GW Hates the Brets

They are gone. Finished and good riddance. Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were and I am still angry at all the Love Brets got back in 5th edition.

Offline Philhelm

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If in the end it is neither the sorcery of Undeath, or the Winds of Magic, or uncaring unworthy Elves, but instead the blood of a man made king made god, and the will and resolve of a ornery righteous old bad ass, that sends the dark gods back to their corners, and ends Nagash and his lieutenants, then I will applaud.

Speaking of which, has there been any further mention of Luthor Huss or even Ludwig Schwarzhelm?  Last I recall, Luthor Huss was wounded in TET: Nagash, and I haven't heard any further mention of him...

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Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he  needed his power to raise up a hero.

Why do I get the sinking impression that this could be Tyrion?

Offline Darknight

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Bromance.
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Offline Luthor

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Brets are done!

1. GW never liked them
2. They never fit with the feel of the world
3. Their models were never that great
4. I know a guy that worked in Nottingham for 7 years. It is indeed true that GW Hates the Brets

They are gone. Finished and good riddance. Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were and I am still angry at all the Love Brets got back in 5th edition.

They won't be gone until every single one of their models is removed from the web-store. And even then they still won't be truly gone until they as an army are invalidated, and even then they will still exist as a Tilia or Estalia or Kislev, until all mention of them ever making a mark on the Warhammer world is expunged from the lore.

So feel about them the way you must, and say what you will, but you will not be rid of them as easily as you think.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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They are gone. Finished and good riddance Bretons.

FTFY
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Offline iatroblast

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Quote from: Luthor link=topic=49881.msg934349 :icon_razz: :icon_razz:#msg934349 date=1421870356
...I absolutely hate the Wood Elves and Dark Elves. ...

I heard it from others too, and honestly i don't understand this at all. Aren't wood elves the most iconic elves we have? Why everyone has to be vanilla good or pure evil to get some appreciation?
Personally, i think high elves are pure fillers, since the Empire and Dwarfs are "the forces of good" and having and a third, isn't so necessary (i  know the importance of Teclis, but he could also be a Wood elf. A druid maybe rather than a wizard?) On the other hand, Warhammer's High Elves are much closer to Atlanteans than classic Elves (and since they don't have Conan with his Atlantean sword... not interesting  :icon_razz: )

Brets are done!

1. GW never liked them
2. They never fit with the feel of the world
3. Their models were never that great ...

 :Ohmy: IMO they have some of the most beautiful models in the game: Pegasus Knights, Grail Reliquae, Field Trebuchet, The Green Knight, Questing Knights, Peasants, Battle Standard... I think, them, Vampire Counts and Wood Elves are the best armies if you're more interesting in just collecting miniatures (though we have some of the best ones too  :happy: )

Offline Baron von Klatz

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Amen to everything FVC has said! I've always hated the sadistic, hedonistic Dark Elves, and the apathetic and savage Wood Elves; but prior to the End Times, the High Elves I had a good deal of respect for.

Bretonnia has waited nearly twelve years for a new army book, and they deserve to have their day. Teclis is carrion. He's a worm, and the scum of the earth, to which the Bretonnians are soaring Eagles.

The End Times began with the death and defilement of truly the greatest hero of the modern Empire, Volkmar the Grim, and I truly hope it ends with some remnant of the unbreakable will and resolve of the great man, overcoming the mind of the megalomaniacal evil that is Nagash, and causing him to destroy himself.
Volkmar's aim was to find a way to permanently destroy the chaos gods...
Has he finally found a way to do it?

If in the end it is neither the sorcery of Undeath, or the Winds of Magic, or uncaring unworthy Elves, but instead the blood of a man made king made god, and the will and resolve of a ornery righteous old bad ass, that sends the dark gods back to their corners, and ends Nagash and his lieutenants, then I will applaud.

If Games Workshop want to destroy the Bretonnians, and all the things that made Warhammer Fantasy my favourite setting and game, then that is ultimately on them. It does not detract from the great things from past years that are to me, untouchable.

Well said! :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

why do people think that Bretonnian is getting squatted? .........there is nothing to suggest that  :? :? :?

There is actually little to support Bretonnia being scrapped. People always make the things they dread most their personal head-canon, that's why mere mentions of bubblehammer and lizardmen vanishing are told like it was a stated fact from GW instead of just rumors(even though the current fluff makes those rumors contradictory, if the lizards made the bubbles why aren't they in them?).

Things in support of Bretonnia in 9th:

-king Gilles and his army of Grail knights are unaccounted for.
-king Louen has risen to the Lady's side as the Golden paladin,  this could potentially let him bless the knights if the the Lady passes on.
-Harry himself has stated seeing concept work and artwork by John Blanche for Bretonnia in 8th.
-the Bretonnians that crusaded with Louen are mentioned to be with the imperial forces in Averland while another force returned home carrying king Louen's body.
-mentions of all 8th books being completed before moving onto 9th edition, the wood elves book was involved in events before the End Times so why couldn't Bretonnia's book be involved with the events afterwards?
-Lileath's new world will have Bretonnia's greatest heroes from the past as the pantheon of humanity's gods.

Things against Bretonnia in 9th:

-Rumors of combined armies.
-Fluff stating that Bretonnian lands are overrun by Skaven.

If in the end it is neither the sorcery of Undeath, or the Winds of Magic, or uncaring unworthy Elves, but instead the blood of a man made king made god, and the will and resolve of a ornery righteous old bad ass, that sends the dark gods back to their corners, and ends Nagash and his lieutenants, then I will applaud.

Speaking of which, has there been any further mention of Luthor Huss or even Ludwig Schwarzhelm?  Last I recall, Luthor Huss was wounded in TET: Nagash, and I haven't heard any further mention of him...

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Teclis called Ulric selfish and said that he  needed his power to raise up a hero.

Why do I get the sinking impression that this could be Tyrion?

Unfortunately,  Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.

Teclis's words certainly do seem to indicate Tyrion but there are some rumors who suggest it might be Caradryan instead.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 10:06:09 PM by Baron von Klatz »
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Offline Sig

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Teclis said he can't bring back Tyrion without resurrecting Khaine, and he really doesn't want to do that.

As for the whole deities thing:

It's GW's setting. At the end of the day, they've decided to retcon some stuff (shoe-horning the Slaanesh 40k stuff into Fantasy Elves) and write a twist (Lileath being the Lady). Going by the army book and BRB fluff since their 5th ed launch, there is absolutely no reason why Lileath couldn't be the Lady (or Slaanesh, as you say). They never made it clear, it was as you say, elusive.

It's the idea of privilege and subordination of story I can't take at all seriously. Every single faction has been entirely subordinate to the Chaos faction since 6th edition, 15 years ago. I don't remember the 5th edition Chaos book well enough, but it was probably in there too. Chaos has been pictured as the inevitable victor in the setting ever since then. Everything else is just a sideshow. All the gods just shards of Chaos (interestingly this has been quietly dropped in the End Times). None able to stand up to might Chaos. Blah blah blah. You've had a long time to get used to this concept.

What I don't see is how sharing a deity invalidates your faction at all. I said it above and it wasn't answered. All you said is that you didn't like it. I see it as a form of divine accomodation, and it works just fine. Does the fact that she is an elven deity also make her an elf? Isn't she big enough to be adequate for both elves and humans? Why does it make the elven story more important than the Breton one?

Anyway, the setting is best looked at like a comic book setting because that's how it's being handled. The setting exists in a continuum of writing from its inception until now, with different personalities (and skill levels...) stamping their authority on the Marvel or DC worlds. Superman's story has changed many times and all of them are, or were, correct. Even when they contradict each other. That's the reality of a multi-author setting. GW aren't wrong when they have deities dying. They aren't wrong when they have Shallya being Taal's wife (unless it's a typo, but I doubt it). That's what the setting is now. That's not to say the setting is particularly good - I agree it isn't. It has a mix of a few good ideas with mostly bad ones.

Where I disagree is that I would argue that the setting has been that way for at least 15 years. They've just swapped some of their old bad ideas for a few new ones, and some of the good ones for some worse ones.

Offline psychichobo

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I've actually been wondering if these attempts to portray Gods in a much more vulnerable light is a sign that there was originally very little to stop their deaths in the first place - they just never attacked each other (much) before.

I mean, Nurgle nearly murders another God in Glottkin without breaking a sweat (I can't remember if that particular God - was it Taal? - did die or not), and Nagash manages to defeat one by simply making himself powerful enough.

Maybe these stories are paving the way for the reveal that the Chaos Gods aren't invincible - if other Gods can die, why not them? They may be powerful, but Nagash alone caused Nurgle and the Horned Rat to play their trump cards early. And that Wind of Heaven seems to have some trace of our dear ol' Sigmar in it - Teclis recognises it - so maybe all this time we've had a much more powerful God than we initially thought.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Or maybe the writers do not care about logic and consistency at all?
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Offline Franz Volker

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Or maybe the writers do not care about logic and consistency at all?
And what do you call someone like that?

Offline Sig

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These gods seem to be almost like gods in Faerun/Forgotten Realms. Their power is more of a possession than something intrinsic, and once lost they are no longer divine. The Goddess of Magic was a mortal who became a deity, with quite a different personality from the previous Goddess of Magic. She was recently killed by another God, and her Weave shattered, resulting in Wild Magic all over the world (sound familiar?).

Offline Ships

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Unfortunately,  Luthor and Ludwig are MIA at the moment.

Ludwig isn't MIA, he's with Franz on the way to Altdorf. He was with Valten when he came to Altdorf but Franz and Ludwig went to Averheim and Gregor and Valten ended up being forced north to Middenheim.

Offline FVC

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I think the problem, FVC, is that you speak as someone who really loves the Bretonnian background . . . and GW never did.

Pretty much; and I complained about Bretonnian background as well. At times it does seem obvious that GW has more passion for some factions than others. That's only natural - their designers are human, and humans have biases - but it does make you wish for a slightly larger GW design team, capable not only of more playtesting and better balance, but of finding people with a passion for every faction.

why do people think that Bretonnian is getting squatted? .........there is nothing to suggest that  :? :? :?

My suspicion is that every race is getting 'Squatted' to an extent, as they are all reformed into these ninth edition armies we hear about. If these are really these six new combination armies, then it's a question of which factions are most influential in those new armies. If Bretonnia becomes part of a new 'human' or even 'forces of order' army, along with the Empire and the dwarfs, I suspect that Bretonnia will be a junior partner by far. It may even be just a few components on the knight sprue, while the army book describes Bretonnia in the same way the current Empire book describes, say, Averland. Realistically, I think that may be the best we can hope for.

I suppose I feel confirmed in that suspicion by the note that most of what makes Bretonnia unique seems to have been pillaged in the End Times plot. The land of Bretonnia, the Lady of the Lake, all three of our special characters have been removed, two killed and one radically transformed, and so on.

It comes down to that point about GW seeming to like some factions more than others. The elves, for example, have done really well out of the End Times: clearly someone really likes Malekith and Ulthuan and so on. (If only he liked them in a way that made me appreciate them as well. I used to really like the High Elves myself, but the End Times seem designed to make me loathe the elves.) Or it seems likely that someone is a fan of the Vampire Counts. And so on. Bretonnia seems to be on the low end of the scale when it comes to GW's appreciation, though.

As Ranorian says, it makes me really wish we had the sales figures. How were these armies selling? But even then we need to consider other factors: of course Bretonnia will have lower sales if its army book and all its models are over a decade old! So maybe GW didn't see potential for investment in Bretonnia to build it up. Maybe they had evidence that the market was shrinking and they didn't think they could support that many armies; rather than try to build up Bretonnia, they could get more sales by just releasing add-ons for the other armies. I'm sure GW know that getting people to start a new army is much harder than getting them to buy an add-on or new unit for their current army. Financially, I suspect that add-ons and supplements make more sense than army updates. (See also: Space Marines.)

The six army model makes a lot of sense in this light, doesn't it? Instead of selling entire armies, GW focuses much more on supplements, and since there are only six armies, each new model they produce can be sold to a much larger section of the fan base. If we only have six armies and they're equally popular, 16.6% of the base might buy the cool new premium model. But if you have fourteen armies, as they do now, the only 7.1% of the base might buy that model. (Of course, bearing in mind that not all armies are equally popular and some units can be shared between armies, such as daemons, the real figures will be a bit different.) Even factoring in that some people have multiple armies, the point remains: fewer base armies and regular add-ons make more financial sense than supporting a large number of armies.

They are gone. Finished and good riddance. Empire was 200% more interesting than they ever were and I am still angry at all the Love Brets got back in 5th edition.

You're still angry at the Bretonnian army in the 90s? Back when they actually moved in triangles and the Lady's Blessing stopped people firing artillery at our wonderful knights? That's a pretty long time to hold a grudge. Are you part dwarf?

What I don't see is how sharing a deity invalidates your faction at all. I said it above and it wasn't answered. All you said is that you didn't like it.

Er, I talked about the stories more widely, didn't I? The Lileath thing is part of it. That idea assimilates the Lady into the elven pantheon and prevents us talking about the Lady as a unique and Bretonnian deity. I find it particularly bizarre because I cannot see any aesthetic or thematic similarity between Lileath and the Lady, as I believe I mentioned in the linked topic. I could see a case for the Lady/Isha/Rhya/earth-goddess and so on, but Lileath is archetypally a maiden prophetess. Those images are not associated with the Lady, though.