Topic: Empire Tactica: High Elves (Updated)

[Countwarlord]

Hello fellow Generals I'm back after doing the Beastmen Tactica and now I'm doing this one. I warn you I'm going to post every unit and character per army in each article, so these posts will be VERY long, if you read it all then your a trooper and I'm proud of you.  Also these posts are ENTIRELY based on my playing experience and my word is not infallible fact so feel free to agree or disagree with whatever you wish.

I will access each unit with an article, list their threat level, (On the scale below) their specialty, and the recommended method to deal with them.

Minor Means little-no threat even in the units specialty.

Moderate Means caution should be taken with this unit, and either engage with superior forces or the recommended option.

Extreme Means Huge caution must be taken against this unit and must be taken on top priority, only engage with what is recommended.

Now lets examine the........High Elves


Why Do People Play High Elves

Imagine those tall dudes from Lord of The Rings and you pretty much got it. They have a stupidly ridiculous magic phase, crazy special infantry choices, a crazy good harassment unit. Oh and did we mention that they have Always Strikes First, which this is unaffected by Great Weapons.
 
Don't think they're impossible to beat though. Low Toughness, light armor and high cost units means that they have to be played well. So expect most High Elf players to be people that have played for awhile.


Unit Analysis

All High Elves have a special rule called "Speed of Asuryan" which means you need to just trust me when I say that if your ever calculating if victory will be yours in a specific scenario of close combat just assume that all of their attacks will hit, and they will do their damage before you can do anything.

Their other special rule doesn't involve us so we will skip it.


Lords & Heroes

Named Characters

Tyrion, the Defender of Ulthuan: An expensive guy that doesn't die, and that's why he isn't that great. Between ASF, WS9, I10, 4 attacks, S7 and a breath weapon, he can hit pretty hard, but not hard enough for his point cost, but with his 1+ armor and 4+ ward make up for his lack of hitting power. You see this guy....your probably screwed unless you have alot of buffs and/or a Runefang, or your running The Emperor. However, he can't do anything that a tricked out Prince couldn't do just as well for less. He's fun, but competitive lists tend to prefer his brother.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Combat/Survival.
recommended: Runefangs, or The Emperor, or 2 lvl 4 casters worth of buffs.


Teclis: Don't be fooled by his garbage stats, this dude is nearly the best caster in the game. He's a level 4 Wizard who knows EVERY spell in his lore (favorites are Lore of Death and Shadow, though most can work), he gets D3 power and dispel dice per phase, an auto-Irresistible Force on ANY roll that includes a double, can dissipate his first Miscast PER PHASE and has a dispel scroll that can eat a spell. Lucky for you though, he's expensive (475 points) and with S2, which doesn't matter (if they are using him for close combat, they are doing it terribly wrong), T2 and NO save he will die if he gets caught in any combat. But leave him alive and you have lost already.

Threat Level: Extreme
specialty: Magic/winning the game/getting banned.
recommended: Get him in combat as fast as humanly possible.


Alith Anar, the Shadow King: This guy suffers, not from being bad, but from being expensive and having better choices be available. He's got a bolt thrower shooting weapon,  and a nice statline, but people want a powerhouse special character, and all of the Lord Choices are better at that, plus High elves have a magic item that does what his bow does (Bow of the Seafarer). He can scout though but putting a 200+ point model in your opponents back line isn't too smart as this guy is pretty easy to drop.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Shooting you in the face.
recommended: Combat lords do generally fine, as do heavy hammer units, cannons too.


Elatharion the Grim, Warden of Tor Yvresse: A solid fighting Lord, who is perhaps too expensive for his own good. He's also a Level 2 Caster who can grab any lore from the Rulebook, but that's not impressive as a lvl 4 wizard is almost always better. He can also ride his enhanced personal Griffin, (comes with a Ward save) but at that points level its better to take a Lord on a Dragon. As with Alith, he's a good enough Lord who's mostly overshadowed by how much you're paying for him and how much better the other two lords are. Also we can cannon him.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Combat/support.
recommended: Heavy Hammer units, or Combat Lords if he isn't mounted, if he is mounted then you can break him, and any monster mount should be headbutting cannonballs from turn 1.


Caradryan, Captain of the Phoenix Guard: A good fighting hero who seems to be an absurdly good deal (more than 50 points less than a noble with similar effects) for his 4+ Ward Save and Magic Resistance (3) (which is very worth it to see a unit of Phoenix Guard get a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by magic). His magic weapon is FANTASTIC against regenerating troops and he himself is not too expensive, especially since he stops tricked out Lords/Heroes from coming after him with his dying ability (D6 wounds on whoever kills him with no armor save). Very dangerous and is almost never worth what you have to bring against him.

Threat Level: Extreme
specialty: Combat/Survival/making Phoenix Guard Laugh off spells.
recommended: Avoid him or kill him with a heavy unit and NEVER a character, (I don't care how good you think your ward save is you will die).



Korhil, Captain of the White Lions: This guys advantages are as follows: He's cheap (140 points, only 5 points more than a level 2 Mage with no equipment) and he's Stubborn and thus grants this to any unit he joins. Those two reasons are reason enough to take him, especially if dumped in a large Spearmen unit. He's reasonably killy on his own merits (S6 and Killing Blow) but not survivable enough. Still Dangerous.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Combat.
recommended: His save isn't great and a Hammer unit or a Combat character kited for bear will usually drop him, (though be sure you have a Ward save so you don't get KB'ed)


Generic Characters

Note: While named characters are judged against their generic counterparts, generic characters are examined based on their role in the army.

Prince: This personifies everything about the High Elves: Fast as the flash on meth, a nightmare in close combat, can take a variety of special stuff, about as hard as tissue. Always seen with armor and/or ward saves, (usually both) if anyone fields him naked then thank him for the free VP. Aside from that, he's a close combat Lord (WS7, I8) that rivals Chaos Lords, and properly kitted out there's very little this guy can't kill. Do note, however, a Great Weapon is unaffected by Always Strikes Last. Also, Dragon Armor is like the dragonbane gem but better. (Look for the variety of killy options down in the magic items section). All in all expect to get your face handed to you in combat unless your seriously kited for bear, Also he will almost always be on a star dragon. (if he is on a dragon then his threat level becomes laughable)

Threat Level: Extreme-Minor If on a (dragon)
specialty: Combat.
recommended: Runefangs, High Strength and certainly ward saves are your only chance, this guy will butcher anything but characters. If on a dragon then cannons will make it free VP.


Archmage: A fantastic caster. Access to all 8 Lores, plus High Magic, means he can literally be designed to own the board. Also remember that as long as he's on the board (along with his little brother the Mage) they get +1 to dispel attempts, (doesn't stack with additional casters) for a total of +5 when channeling it through a Level 4 Archmage. In all honestly this guy will destroy the whole board on his own or make his army impossible to stop, either way he is TOP priority, I do not care how scary that unit of Sword Masters looks if this guy isn't your first target your a retard. (note a popular build is 2 items that make him Ethereal and drain your magic items, so hope you have a way to make your attacks magical without magic weapons)

Threat Level: Extreme
specialty: Magic/winning the game.
recommended: Get him in combat as fast as humanly possible. (preferably with magical attacks)


Noble: A great fighter for his points, but if you see this guy then he couldn't afford a Prince (who's only 65 points more). The main reason to take a Noble is because he can be a BSB or if you're low on points (either overall or in the Lord Choices) in which case, he's not much worse then his big brother. He's seen as a BSB.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Combat./BSB
recommended: Though not as powerful as a Prince you will still need a very heavy hammer unit or a combat character kited for bear if you wanna drop this guy.


Mage: It's always nice to have a backup caster to add +1 to your dispel rolls. (in case your Archmage bites it) Can also be kitted out for a different lore than your Archmage based on his Lore. A solid choice, basic anti caster tactics work here.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Magic.
recommended: Combat....that simple.


Dragon Mage: Mages riding Dragons is sort of silly. The Dragon is fairly squishy (for a Dragon plus cannons think everything is squishy) and the model as a whole runs on the expensive side, but he can grab Flaming Sword of Rhun like a sig spell and is actually pretty nasty with a spearman unit, and the caster himself can put out a fire casters level of firepower. Against other armies it can be a game breaker at lower points. (but monsters against Empire is a terrible option always as its free VP for us)

Threat Level: Minor
specialty: Magic/combat. (thanks to the dragon)
recommended: Cannon him in the face and laugh.


Mounts: I won't list recommendations or threat levels, as its very simple to determine the threat from the article, and Empires solution for monsters has been the same since ever.....

        Griffon: Griffons suffer by sucking: They're free cannon hits.

        Sun Dragon: The mini-Dragon. Still a Dragon, still easy VP for us. Good for giving us points. Probably on the level of a Manticore. (thus cannons)

        Moon Dragon: The medium Dragon, same power level as most Dragons. Which is nothing against our cannons.

        Star Dragon: The highest tier of Dragon and the best monster mount in the game pretty much, which would totally matter if cannons didn't exist.


Core Units

Archers: A decent unit overall. Longbows and high BS give them a good range and a ability to outrange our guys (don't worry about them doing anything to heavy armor). They work really well in 2 or so groups of 10, especially when combined with Repeater Bolt Throwers (they will generally concentrate fire). You won't see any Command beyond Musician. Just a side note, Archers having Longbows is superior in range to Lothern Sea Guard having simple Bows, and this makes a world of difference when your trying to get in range with your own shooting.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Shooting you.
recommended: Magic, as shooting and light units lose out, but killing this unit is worth it as they are VERY expensive.


Spearmen: These fellas are solid, with the new rules for Always Strikes First and the rank rules (allowing them to strike in 4 Ranks). A common formation for them is 5 ranks of 6 for a total of 30 models, giving a total of 24 attacks (25 with Champion) and 7 wounds required before they start losing attacks for a total of 295 points with Command. Although you could see a 565 points, 60 man Horde which gets a total of 50 attacks on the front. Ultimately, there always seen. The anvil of most "hammer and anvil" strikes for High Elf armies. Shoot and always engage with superior numbers and WP buffs, flanks help a great deal as well. Special units lose out against these guys as they will simply kill too much before you can react with your lower numbers.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Spearing you.
recommended: Outnumber them and have buffs, also flanks from Knight units can help greatly.


Lothern Sea Guard: These guys get a bad reputation, which not totally deserved. They cost 12 points, have spears and light armor, can take a shield for an extra point and have bows instead of Longbows. As such they tend to be regarded as overpriced, which is very true, but they're still a threat to us, that can pump out an okay shooting round and actually do okay in combat. With shields. Not a super scary unit, and not as scary as Spearmen. Lothern Sea Guard above the other two Core choices that have the fewest numbers, as such they can only get so many shots in before having to reform, etc. In any case, the high price of each Lothern Sea Guard makes every single loss taken more costly. Shoot them all day honestly the same tactics as their cheaper cousins, just expect return fire.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Spearing you/shooting you/being expensive.
recommended: Same as Spearmen


Special Units

Swordsmasters of Hoeth: A glass cannon unit. 15 WS6 S5 attack for 2 ranks at 15 points a pop and High Elf ASF? makes them hit hard.But they are easy to kill at T3 and only Heavy Armor. But they get in combat with any of your stuff and its dead they hit too hard for use to kill without losing guys. Shoot them all day a charge is suicide that simple.

Threat Level: Extreme
specialty: Combat.
recommended: Shooting and spells, anything else is just plain stupid.


Phoenix Guard: Easily the survival unit in the High Elf army. 15 points for WS5, S4, I6, LD9, Fear causing, Heavy Armored, ASF ridiculousness and a 4+ Ward Save. These guys can get hit in the face by a cannon ball and just laugh it off, and they've got enough killing power to actually hurt us. (while they don't hit nearly as hard as the other 2 special infantry they still hurt us) Be sure to expect a character with the stubborn crown, because LD9 does not make them immune to failing their break test. You need to shoot, use nuke spells, or have a VERY protected character to fight these fellas, and as usual....outnumber them.

Threat Level: Extreme
specialty: Combat/NEVER EVER  DYING.
recommended: Dwellers, shooting, any close combat besides heavily outnumbering them will get you tarpitted and/or grinded the ENTIRE game.

[Countwarlord]

White Lions of Chrace: The only S4 infantry in this army, and they use GW's, they are much more resistant to shooting than Swordsmasters (with a 3+ save against shooting), they're Stubborn, which is reason enough not to engage them. They end up being the jack of all trades of the three, operating just as well as a defensive ranked unit as an offensive unit. Also with S6 and High Elf ASF, 2 ranks of them is enough to wipe a knight unit. They're the most threatening infantry to us. This may sound familiar but ranged, ranged, ranged!!! Close combat is suicide unless you severely outnumber them.

Threat Level: Extreme
specialty: Combat.
recommended: Shooting and spells, and outnumbering.


Silver Helms: These guys stopped being popular the minute they stopped being Core. they are, like Swordsmasters, not necessarily bad on their own terms, but suffer in comparison to other units, in this case Dragon Princes. They are sometimes a character delivery service and that still isn't threatening to us.

Threat Level: Minor
specialty: Combat.
recommended: Charge them with your Knights or have any unit with GW's and you win, also Characters slaughter them. HBVG works well too.


Dragon Princes of Caledor: These fellas hit almost as hard as Chaos Knights (lower S but more hits with their attacks). If people are playing a defensive list you won't see them, but offensive lists will always have them. Always get the charge with your own Knights or HBVG them.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Combat.
recommended: Same as Silver Helms but WAY more dangerous.


Ellyrian Reavers: Expensive and our shooting drops them in seconds, plus they suck. Not dangerous.

Threat Level: Minor
specialty: Killing War machines.
recommended: Shoot them and laugh, or just charge and score way too much VP.


Shadow Warriors: If you have War Machine hunter, these guys are dangerous, (Hint they are dangerous to Empire) they scout but are expensive and lack staying power. Just have a unit of Knights held back to charge them.

Threat Level: Minor
specialty: Killing War machines.
recommended: Knights, magic missiles


Tiranoc Chariot: A weak chariot that will never be seen.

Threat Level: Minor
specialty: Impact Hits.
recommended: Empire Knows how to deal with Chariots.


White Lion Chariot: This is what Tiranoc Chariots suffer when compared to. With S6 crew, 4 S5 Lion attacks and an extra armor save, White Lion Chariots are pretty brutal. As with all Chariots, the same tactics apply just have more caution.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Impact Hits/Combat.
recommended: Empire Knows how to deal with Chariots.



Rare Units

Repeater Bolt Thrower: Neither of the Rare Choices are precisely spectacular, but these are the more all purpose of the pair. But honestly if High Elves wanna play the war machine game with us then have yourself a good laugh.

Threat Level: Moderate
specialty: Shooting.
recommended: Our War machines are better, prove it to them.


Great Eagle: This can and will die to a single round of S3 shooting (Empire has S4+ shooting). You really will be seeing alot of these because they are amazing redirectors, many High Elf players use these to screen and redirect you, this will make you throw much more than you need at it, which helps the High Elves as well, just have a calm approach and send BS infantry to shoot it or magic missiles.

Threat Level: Minor-Moderate (If you can't stop chaff well)
specialty: Killing War machines.
recommended: Shoot them with anything and laugh, or just charge and score VP.


Magic Items of Note

Here are some of the better items that High Elves will have.

Star Lance: Ouch this is, as far as Lances go, a fairly scary one especially if a Noble leading Dragon Princes has it. Scary.

Golden Shield: Really scary if this plans on going after your characters.

Armor of Caledor: 20 points less than a common magic item that does the exact same thing. And that 45 point armor is STILL a good item. Need I say more?

Vambraces of Defense:' Combine with a 2+ Armor (either naturally or with Armor of Caledor).  and that Prince will Never get wounded.

Talisman of Sappery: Turns your Ghal Maraz into dog crap, dangerous.

Folariath's Robe: Archmages use this to be Ethereal, Be careful.

The Skeinsliver: If they are packing this you probably won't get the first turn.

Book of Hoeth: Its banned in alot of places and its easy to see why, you essentially get Teclis's IF ability I mentioned.

Vortex Shard: You will Lose your first magic Phase.

Annulian Crystal: You lose a PD and he gains a DD, I thought this wasn't a Dwarves Tactica.

Sigil of Asuryan: Dispels your spell and destroys it 50% of the time.

The Seerstaff of Sapphery: This makes bad luck spell rolling impossible. They WILL get the spells they want.

Silver Wand: 10 points for a free spell......Yea I know.

Battle Banner: +D6 Combat Res...not including the usual +1 for BSB. For 80 points. why is that good?! Normally this banner would totally suck for other armies but since High Elves need to win combat so often as they will be outnumbered this banner gives them alot more staying power.

Banner of the World Dragon: Makes the unit its in totally immune to any spell, hope you didn't plan on using Dwellers.

Banner of Sorcery: Do you have Mages? Do you like winning? they will take the Banner of Sorcery, they will get +D3 extra PD per magic phase and drink your tears. I'm not sure there is a better magic banner in the entire game.


Magic

I really can't stress this enough High Elves have one of the most BRUTAL magic phases in the ENTIRE GAME. Unless you drop their casters your Wizards will be wasted points and you are beyond screwed.


Things To Expect

Never going first: High Elves will hit first and with all of their attacks.

Losing at Magic: Once again I can't stress this Enough if you let them cast then you have already lost.

Insane Special units: a 4+ Ward save for 15 points?!?! you can keep your Bloodletters.

Them dying: Elves are weak to ANYTHING hitting them.

Numbers: You will have a major advantage here.

Thats the End of this Tactica I hope it helps as always I'll answer any question I missed here. FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!   

[Eighty]

Kinda glad i dont have to play any HE in my little group.

good read though! HE or O&G were always going to be my second army (leaning towards orcs atm, random is fun!)

[Minsc]

Countwarlord, first off: big kudos for taking the time to write theese big tacticas.

But, you have to stop sounding like a GW employee, who tries his hardest to sell model's. Many of your threatlevels are just so exaggerated, and here is why: (Units I don't comment on I most likely agree with you on.)

Tyrion has 4 attacks, except for his one-use breath that's all he's got. He's quite expensive, and moderatly hard to kill, but he's a) paying for something he can't make use of in 8th (Reg/Ward combo) and...did I mention he only has 4 attacks? This guy isn't 'extreme', he's 'moderate' at best.

Same goes for the regular Prince. A Doombull, a Chaos Lord, a Vampire Lord, a Tyrant, level 4's...those are 'extreme' threats to a Empire battleline.
Would you compare a Doombull with a 1+ rerollable save and 10 S6 armourpiercing attacks with a Prince, who essentially only get 4 S6 attacks, and still consider the Prince a 'extreme' threat? He's also moderate at best.

Dragonmage: I can understand why you call him 'moderate', but against any list with shooting (This is the Empire-forum right?) he's over 400 pts down the drain, ergo a minor threat. The dragon isn't that scary, and while the 'free' PD granted by the dragonmage is quite nasty in 8th Ed, the guy is still T3 W2 with a 5++ save, maybe a 4++.

I agree that White Lions and Sword Masters are extreme threats (at least the White Lions. I wouldn't excpect any Swordmaster to reach the Empire line in a regular battle.), but the Phoenix Guard? Yes, they're a very solid bunker, but an 'extreme' threat, or better yet, one of the 'top 3 units in the game'? Come on.
Despite their fancy rules and their 4++ wardsave, they are still A1 S4. They don't die by the droves, but they don't kill anything by the droves either. I'd really only call theese a 'moderate' threat to a Empire general. We can feed them fodder (which will eventually kill them) or just slamm 1+ save knights into them and we're done.

I see your reasoning on Silver Helms but I disagree. Fairly expensive special heavycav with 'only' a 2+ save and the statline of a regular spearmen isn't very scary. It was slightly scary in 7th, but now in 8th I'd just laugh if I saw my opponent wasted...I ment spent, points on theese. Our regular core knights are better, and cheaper. Silverhelms are easily a 'minor' threat.

Which brings us to Dragon Princes. They are dangerous, and they are better than Silver Helms, but are they an extreme threat? Hardly. Still T3 2+ save and at best S5 on the charge, after that they revert to S3. Unlike Silver Helms, Dragon Princes aren't 'bad', they just suffer from the same thing that most cav do in 8th Ed. With that said, I would never call them a 'extreme' threat (Demigryphs, Mournfang, Bloodknights = extreme threat in ways of cav), but I'd put them as a 'Moderate' threat.

I would agree that the White Lion Chariot is a moderate threat, then I remembered how much it costs and how fragile it is (Crossbows and Handguns easily kill it.) - And since where up against Empire and it has the pricetag it currently has, I'd call it a "Minor threat" instead.

And onto the thing I dissagree with you most upon: The Great Eagle. Yes, this guy is a minor threat when it comes to killing-power on his own, but you don't use Eagles to kill stuff (except the odd Warmachines) - you use them to redirect, annoy, be in the way, harass, etc. Great Eagles can single handedly totally f*ck up your gameplan, and they might be the reason you just lost that game againt HE. Great Eagles are a 'extreme' threat!

I won't comment on the magic items, since I generally agree with you (or I don't care, regarding the bad magic items, since nobody ever use them), except for:

Battle Banner: +D6 Combat Res...not including the usual +1 for BSB. For 80 points. I'm not sure there is a better magic banner in the entire game.

Battle Banner sucks in 8th Ed. and there's two major reasons for this:
1) BSB's are important, very important now. Having a Battle Banner on your HE BSB means he will at best have a 4+/6++ save on foot, or a 2+ save when mounted. On a T3 W2 guy this isn't enough.
2) +D6 combat-res was awesome in 7th. In 8th, combats are either (usually) won or lost my a massive amount. Adding or substracting D6 from this will rarely make a difference...or your opponent is simply steadfast and doesn't care about your Battlebanner, and proceeds to smash your BSB to a bloody pulp in the next combatphase (because now he knows that the BSB is fragile, and not packing a 1+ rerollable or 1+/4++ save.)

I actually think you made a typo when you said "I don't think there's a better banner in the entire game" - surely this was directed at the Banner of Sorcery?

With that said, don't feel like this is me flaming you or that I'm jumping you - theese are just my opinions, and why I think you're wrong on some accounts.

[Siberius]

I also am glad not to have high elves in my local group.

I have my fingers crossed you do dwarfs soon as a dwarf player has popped up here and they are a total mystery.

Minsc, I think he is editing them about a bit with the input he gets so I am sure they will end up being very useful guides. It is the kind of thing that needs someone to just make a start at or it never happens so    to countwarlord.

[Minsc]

I have my fingers crossed you do dwarfs soon as a dwarf player has popped up here and they are a total mystery.

Shoot his cannons with your cannons before he shoots yours.
Then crush the dwarves, see them driven before your Demigryphs, and hear the lamentation of their beardless women.

[Eighty]

and hear the lamentation of their beardless women.

lament my featureless ladies LAMENT

straight up though, i think a thread with links to every tactica you have written would be a good idea. we could link it to every new guy that pops in here and then everyone would be happy

[Greg17]

I think Eagles are better than players give them credit for.  They can become a real headache when it comes to redirections and unforseen tactics when used by a good player.   I would put them at least at the moderate threat level. 



-- Greg

[davidprice12]

thank you very helpful plz do a WoC

[sammay23]

Excellent work. I've been enjoying all of your tactica, and I'm hopeful that I can add to this one.

Like Minsc, I have a few clarifications to offer. I play HE a lot in my group. I've had experience with a lot of different lists.

White Lions are very dangerous. I have an opponent who regularly takes 30 of these in horde, and they will tear through anything but a steam tank. They're not that easily shot, and can move quite quickly. Their "woodsmen" ability comes up a lot against a good opponent, who will make use of it at every opportunity. I'd agree that these are more dangerous than Swordmasters, and certainly much more dangerous than Phoenix Guard.

Eagles, used by a good opponent, are extremely potent. They're good drops to get your opponent to deploy important units first. They're decent at warmachine hunting, but really excel as march blockers and redirectors. A staple in any good HE list, in my opinion.

Spearmen are not very good at all, unless your opponent takes Shadow. Then beware the Occam's Razor spell. Save your scroll for this, as it's a deadly combination. Otherwise, your hordes will tear through them in time, ASF or no. S3 is still S3. Not much to worry about, in my experience. Knights demolish these troops, and IC knights will chew them up with S4. Pin them, and grind.

Great work so far. I hope this helps a bit.

[Countwarlord]

Countwarlord, first off: big kudos for taking the time to write theese big tacticas.

But, you have to stop sounding like a GW employee, who tries his hardest to sell model's. Many of your threatlevels are just so exaggerated, and here is why: (Units I don't comment on I most likely agree with you on.)

Tyrion has 4 attacks, except for his one-use breath that's all he's got. He's quite expensive, and moderatly hard to kill, but he's a) paying for something he can't make use of in 8th (Reg/Ward combo) and...did I mention he only has 4 attacks? This guy isn't 'extreme', he's 'moderate' at best.

Same goes for the regular Prince. A Doombull, a Chaos Lord, a Vampire Lord, a Tyrant, level 4's...those are 'extreme' threats to a Empire battleline.
Would you compare a Doombull with a 1+ rerollable save and 10 S6 armourpiercing attacks with a Prince, who essentially only get 4 S6 attacks, and still consider the Prince a 'extreme' threat? He's also moderate at best.

Dragonmage: I can understand why you call him 'moderate', but against any list with shooting (This is the Empire-forum right?) he's over 400 pts down the drain, ergo a minor threat. The dragon isn't that scary, and while the 'free' PD granted by the dragonmage is quite nasty in 8th Ed, the guy is still T3 W2 with a 5++ save, maybe a 4++.

I agree that White Lions and Sword Masters are extreme threats (at least the White Lions. I wouldn't excpect any Swordmaster to reach the Empire line in a regular battle.), but the Phoenix Guard? Yes, they're a very solid bunker, but an 'extreme' threat, or better yet, one of the 'top 3 units in the game'? Come on.
Despite their fancy rules and their 4++ wardsave, they are still A1 S4. They don't die by the droves, but they don't kill anything by the droves either. I'd really only call theese a 'moderate' threat to a Empire general. We can feed them fodder (which will eventually kill them) or just slamm 1+ save knights into them and we're done.

I see your reasoning on Silver Helms but I disagree. Fairly expensive special heavycav with 'only' a 2+ save and the statline of a regular spearmen isn't very scary. It was slightly scary in 7th, but now in 8th I'd just laugh if I saw my opponent wasted...I ment spent, points on theese. Our regular core knights are better, and cheaper. Silverhelms are easily a 'minor' threat.

Which brings us to Dragon Princes. They are dangerous, and they are better than Silver Helms, but are they an extreme threat? Hardly. Still T3 2+ save and at best S5 on the charge, after that they revert to S3. Unlike Silver Helms, Dragon Princes aren't 'bad', they just suffer from the same thing that most cav do in 8th Ed. With that said, I would never call them a 'extreme' threat (Demigryphs, Mournfang, Bloodknights = extreme threat in ways of cav), but I'd put them as a 'Moderate' threat.

I would agree that the White Lion Chariot is a moderate threat, then I remembered how much it costs and how fragile it is (Crossbows and Handguns easily kill it.) - And since where up against Empire and it has the pricetag it currently has, I'd call it a "Minor threat" instead.

And onto the thing I dissagree with you most upon: The Great Eagle. Yes, this guy is a minor threat when it comes to killing-power on his own, but you don't use Eagles to kill stuff (except the odd Warmachines) - you use them to redirect, annoy, be in the way, harass, etc. Great Eagles can single handedly totally f*ck up your gameplan, and they might be the reason you just lost that game againt HE. Great Eagles are a 'extreme' threat!

I won't comment on the magic items, since I generally agree with you (or I don't care, regarding the bad magic items, since nobody ever use them), except for:

Battle Banner: +D6 Combat Res...not including the usual +1 for BSB. For 80 points. I'm not sure there is a better magic banner in the entire game.

Battle Banner sucks in 8th Ed. and there's two major reasons for this:
1) BSB's are important, very important now. Having a Battle Banner on your HE BSB means he will at best have a 4+/6++ save on foot, or a 2+ save when mounted. On a T3 W2 guy this isn't enough.
2) +D6 combat-res was awesome in 7th. In 8th, combats are either (usually) won or lost my a massive amount. Adding or substracting D6 from this will rarely make a difference...or your opponent is simply steadfast and doesn't care about your Battlebanner, and proceeds to smash your BSB to a bloody pulp in the next combatphase (because now he knows that the BSB is fragile, and not packing a 1+ rerollable or 1+/4++ save.)

I actually think you made a typo when you said "I don't think there's a better banner in the entire game" - surely this was directed at the Banner of Sorcery?

With that said, don't feel like this is me flaming you or that I'm jumping you - theese are just my opinions, and why I think you're wrong on some accounts.

No hard Feelings at all I understand and love the feedback and I will explain why I listed each thing.

First off the battle banner is the best for HE and only HE as they need to win combat as many times they wont be steadfast, also great eagles to us die too fast to really be a threat, Silver helms are a minor threat, unless I listed it wrong, also the dragon mage i meant to put minor, also all of those lords compared to the prince are waay more expensive yes they are stronger but the prince is cheaper, and still dangerous to us, I listed Tyrion as not very competitive and I meant to put moderate, also I'm not trying to "sell" the unit its a fair case also yes Phoenix Guard don't hit hard but S4 attacks that almost ALWAYS hit still hurt alot and at the end of the day we can only out grind them with numbers, Knights lose eventually, and dragon princes are another mistake I meant to put moderate, anything I put by accident im changing now.     

[Countwarlord]

Excellent work. I've been enjoying all of your tactica, and I'm hopeful that I can add to this one.

Like Minsc, I have a few clarifications to offer. I play HE a lot in my group. I've had experience with a lot of different lists.

White Lions are very dangerous. I have an opponent who regularly takes 30 of these in horde, and they will tear through anything but a steam tank. They're not that easily shot, and can move quite quickly. Their "woodsmen" ability comes up a lot against a good opponent, who will make use of it at every opportunity. I'd agree that these are more dangerous than Swordmasters, and certainly much more dangerous than Phoenix Guard.

Eagles, used by a good opponent, are extremely potent. They're good drops to get your opponent to deploy important units first. They're decent at warmachine hunting, but really excel as march blockers and redirectors. A staple in any good HE list, in my opinion.

Spearmen are not very good at all, unless your opponent takes Shadow. Then beware the Occam's Razor spell. Save your scroll for this, as it's a deadly combination. Otherwise, your hordes will tear through them in time, ASF or no. S3 is still S3. Not much to worry about, in my experience. Knights demolish these troops, and IC knights will chew them up with S4. Pin them, and grind.

Great work so far. I hope this helps a bit.

\

I agree with you in many ways eagles are good just not against us we put out too much ranged for them to live long enough most eagles die the first turn I can react to them, also Spearmen are dangerous if you don't use what I recommended and I did say Knights are recommended,

[Countwarlord]

I'm sorry if any accidental rating confused readers, I do alot of copy/paste with colors and that leads to mistakes, but I just finished updating what I got wrong.

[Countwarlord]

I also am glad not to have high elves in my local group.

I have my fingers crossed you do dwarfs soon as a dwarf player has popped up here and they are a total mystery.

Minsc, I think he is editing them about a bit with the input he gets so I am sure they will end up being very useful guides. It is the kind of thing that needs someone to just make a start at or it never happens so    to countwarlord.

Thanks  and yes it requires editing as sometimes i Rush as I want to complete these in a reasonable time frame and not spend forever as my playing experience doesn't reach nearly that far.

[eriktheguy]

Interesting tactica. As an HE player I can say that you got many things wrong about us. I don't mean to shoot you down after all this effort, but on a discussion forum I think that incorrect claims should be addressed. Hopefully you can adjust your tactica going forward.

First off, HE are not a powerful army. We're middle tier, maybe lower middle. We lose tournaments (unless we have Teclis, but such tournaments are silly). Our models are expensive and die to shooting and impact hits easily. We have a strong magic phase as you say, but we just don't compete with high tier armies like skaven, lizards, DE, daemons.

I'm not sure why you rate Tyrion's threat level as extreme. If you're using an absolute scale, then yes, tyrion is just as dangerous as any prince and is an extreme threat. If you're talking about a relative scale (for the points cost), he sucks. Moderate at best. The way I see it only a relative scale makes sense, because there's no way a single swordmaster model ranks as extreme .

Regarding Teclis, I think that death and shadow are the most common lores taken with him, along with heavens. The reason is that comet/okkams/purple sun all cast on high dice (helping IF) and win games.

Prince: You should note that he will often be riding a star dragon.

Mage: The backup caster doesn't add +1 to dispel. You get +1 as long as you have 1 HE wizard, but not +1 for each HE wizard. The mage is usually a caddy of some sort (annulian crystal if not on archmage).

Dragons: I don't see many moon dragons, most dragons in any list are a star dragon with a prince.

Archers: Generally they are not cost effective without magic support. Also, armor is not considered a competitive choice.

Spears: You may not think so, but most HE players would kill to have access to your halberdiers instead of these guys. All those attacks and rerolls are nice, but 9pts for S3 is not considered cost effective to most HE players. You say "there's always room for spears", but that's only true because of the minimum requirement of 25% core. Like our archers, these guys are overcosted without magic support (specifically okkams) and most HE would dump them given the chance.
Also, you should definitely note that spears are one of the best targets in the game for the Okkam's Mindrazor spell. Shadow is a common lore in the HE army, and a horde of spears making 50 attacks with rerolls to hit, and hitting at S8, is nothing to scoff at.

Seaguard: When you look at what we can get for 15 points, you see why these guys have a bad reputation. 13pts for S3 attacks is bad.

Swordsmasters: you should also recommend impact hits against these guys, we love fielding them in small units and impact hits from your chariots, alter, tank can completely wreck them. You're certainly right that shooting is the way to go in general.

Pheonix Guard: They aren't that good. Most lists take more lions or swordmasters. They aren't so much a threat as a deterrent. They are a common bunker for a wizard with book of hoeth.

White Lions: To say that these guys are worse than pheonix guard shows a misunderstanding of the high elf army. A horde of these things will kill you. If the HE player doesn't have swordmasters, this is where you point your Helblaster. Lions will kill any of your 1+ ASv cavalry.

Silver Helms: These guys are not out of use, and they do not fulfill a heavy cavalry role. They are delivery buses for mounted Prince's and Nobles. Because of this you may find yourself unable to kill them with a heavy cavalry charge.

Dragon Princes: Actually, they don't hit THAT hard. They're only S3. Model for model they hit as hard as SM, and only when charging.

Eagles: War machine hunting is only a secondary role of eagles. There is so much more that they do. We have entire tacticas devoted to them on Ulthuan. Their threat level is extreme and they win us games.

[Countwarlord]

I fixed the tactica and I'm comparing their Threats and articles to only Empire and Phoenix Guard are very dangerous to us, and honestly I destroy Great eagles with any ranged i can throw out thats why I don't list them as dangerous, you are right about the prince I should list that. and I should fix teclis's popular lores, also dude HE are not a low tier army, and I know the +1 to dispel doesn't stack I never said that it did.and didn't you see I put all those 15 point infantry as Extreme?

[Countwarlord]

I have finished fixing and updating this Tactica, if there are any more grievous errors please tell me so I can fix them, remember this Tactica is only based on comparison to Empire.

[eriktheguy]

I fixed the tactica and I'm comparing their Threats and articles to only Empire and Phoenix Guard are very dangerous to us, and honestly I destroy Great eagles with any ranged i can throw out thats why I don't list them as dangerous, you are right about the prince I should list that. and I should fix teclis's popular lores, also dude HE are not a low tier army, and I know the +1 to dispel doesn't stack I never said that it did.and didn't you see I put all those 15 point infantry as Extreme?

I see your point on the pheonix guard. I'm usually successful in avoiding ranged attacks from the empire with my eagles and holding on to them until the late game. In any case, if you shoot eagles with any ranged you can throw at them, then you have made them a high priority target. That mean's they're an extreme threat.
You said that having a backup caster to add +1 to dispel is nice. The backup caster doesn't add anything to dispel. It's +5 with or without the backup caster.
I won't argue with you about the power level of HE as it's a contentious issue and not the point of your thread anyways. Sorry for bringing it up, as it's off topic and liable to start a flame war.

Yes, I think your analysis of the 15 point elites is accurate. I would argue that PG is a lower threat but you make a good case when you argue that you're rating them specifically against empire.

[Countwarlord]

I fixed the tactica and I'm comparing their Threats and articles to only Empire and Phoenix Guard are very dangerous to us, and honestly I destroy Great eagles with any ranged i can throw out thats why I don't list them as dangerous, you are right about the prince I should list that. and I should fix teclis's popular lores, also dude HE are not a low tier army, and I know the +1 to dispel doesn't stack I never said that it did.and didn't you see I put all those 15 point infantry as Extreme?

I see your point on the pheonix guard. I'm usually successful in avoiding ranged attacks from the empire with my eagles and holding on to them until the late game. In any case, if you shoot eagles with any ranged you can throw at them, then you have made them a high priority target. That mean's they're an extreme threat.
You said that having a backup caster to add +1 to dispel is nice. The backup caster doesn't add anything to dispel. It's +5 with or without the backup caster.
I won't argue with you about the power level of HE as it's a contentious issue and not the point of your thread anyways. Sorry for bringing it up, as it's off topic and liable to start a flame war.

Yes, I think your analysis of the 15 point elites is accurate. I would argue that PG is a lower threat but you make a good case when you argue that you're rating them specifically against empire.

I say the +1 to dispel is nice but I list before he is good as a back up "IF your lvl 4 dies" that's what I mean by the +1 to dispel also you don't need to direct ranged at them basic magic missiles can kill them, and honestly that's why they are minor, every other army lists them as super dangerous and throws way to much at them, which is what they are for, but if your calm about it then they really aren't an issue, thats my point.

[Countwarlord]

I just stay calm and smack them with burning Gaze or whichever missile or ruby ring I happen to have at the time if not that then my BS infantry.

[rothgar13]

I think there your tactica's threat rating should account for the fact that Empire deals with Swordmasters much more easily than it does with the other 2 elite options, and that Tyrion is simply not worth his points. I'd bump them down to Moderate and explain why you did, but I leave that up to your discretion.

I also have to disagree with your assessment of Archers - at 11ppm, they are ragingly overpriced, and their utter lack of saves means that they are simply too inefficient to be worth bringing. They should be rated as a Minor threat at best. And Sea Guard are rated as overpriced for a very good reason - 13 ppm is absolutely outrageous for a model that only has a 5+ save and only has one S3 attack in combat (shooting ability be damned). Not worth it.

I do have to applaud the work that you've been doing on these, though. It's a good resource to have.

[Countwarlord]

I think there your tactica's threat rating should account for the fact that Empire deals with Swordmasters much more easily than it does with the other 2 elite options, and that Tyrion is simply not worth his points. I'd bump them down to Moderate and explain why you did, but I leave that up to your discretion.

I also have to disagree with your assessment of Archers - at 11ppm, they are ragingly overpriced, and their utter lack of saves means that they are simply too inefficient to be worth bringing. They should be rated as a Minor threat at best. And Sea Guard are rated as overpriced for a very good reason - 13 ppm is absolutely outrageous for a model that only has a 5+ save and only has one S3 attack in combat (shooting ability be damned). Not worth it.

I do have to applaud the work that you've been doing on these, though. It's a good resource to have.

I agree on all front Rothgar13 and I did bump tyrion to moderate (at least
I thought I did) I never meant to list him as extreme also the main danger of archers is their 30 inch range that is the ONLY reason why they are threatening at all, Also sea guard don't have to be worth it to be dangerous to us, and I see Sea guard as spearmen and archers put together,

Thank you by the way 

[eriktheguy]

I agree with having archers at moderate threat. Many high elf lists synergize magic with shooting to turn archers into an actual threat.

[Countwarlord]

plus they can move and fire.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

First off, HE are not a powerful army. We're middle tier, maybe lower middle. We lose tournaments (unless we have Teclis, but such tournaments are silly). Our models are expensive and die to shooting and impact hits easily. We have a strong magic phase as you say, but we just don't compete with high tier armies like skaven, lizards, DE, daemons.

Middle tier, maybe lower middle? Sure, of course you are:

http://battlereporter.blogspot.com/2012/01/best-and-worst-8th-edition-armies.html

The strongest Warhammer Fantasy Battle Armies under the 8th edition rulebook - poll results. We had over 500 people voting and here's the outcome.
Note that: new Orcs & Goblins, Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms and Vampire Count army books were released during the vote (so some people will have voted before seeing the new armies).


Voters were asked to choose the 5 best and worst WHFB armies.


Which armies are the most powerful under the 8th edition rules ?

% of all voters / army

46% High Elves
45% Skaven
40% Warriors of Chaos
32% Dark Elves
29% Chaos Daemons
28% The Empire
20% Lizardmen
20% Dwarfs
19% Vampire Counts
16% Orcs and Goblins
10% Ogre Kingdoms
9% Tomb Kings
7% Bretonnia
6% Wood Elves
4% Beastmen

Which are the weakest fantasy battle armies under the WFB 8th ed. rulebook ?

% of all voters / army

65% Wood Elves
45% Bretonnia
40% Beastmen
37% Tomb Kings
27% Ogre Kingdoms
24% Vampire Counts
16% Orcs and Goblins
14% Dwarfs
11% The Empire
10% Lizardmen
8% High Elves
7% Chaos Daemons
5% Dark Elves
3% Warriors of Chaos
2% Skaven

and if you rank both lists (from best to worst) and add the ranks up and then sort them in order of best 8th edition army to worst 8th edition army then this is what you get...

The overall best to worst Warhammer Fantasy Battle army...
(ranked in order of best + least worst)


1st / Skaven / 3 pts
2nd / Warriors of Chaos / 5 pts
3rd / High Elves / 6 pts
4th / Dark Elves / 7 pts
5th / Chaos Daemons / 9 pts
6th / Lizardmen / 13 pts
7th / The Empire / 13 pts
8th / Dwarfs / 16 pts
9th / Orcs and Goblins / 19 pts
10th / Vampire Counts / 19 pts
11th / Ogre Kingdoms / 22 pts
12th / Tomb Kings / 24 pts
13th / Bretonnia / 27 pts
14th / Beastmen / 28 pts
15th / Wood Elves / 29 pts

I'm sure you'll want to draw your own conclusions, I'm just sorry for the poor old Beastmen because their army book wasn't released that long ago and yet they still come in second bottom in the ranking.

I think anyone who has played against the top 5 know they are disgustingly good, especially Warriors of Chaos (in my opinion).