Topic: what lore?

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I'm thinking of using Gelt for once but my main opponents are Skaven, HE and DE. Now Metal looks good against a Hydra but what about the rest? I really don't see how it could be useful: HPA's, Rat Ogres and White Lions don't care about an AS increase, almost everyone but Knights is lightly armoured, Dragon Princes will laugh it off anyways, and Gehenna's Hounds...meh. It would seem I'm stuck with +1 to hit and Transformation. Is that worth all the trouble? 

[TheBelgianGuy]

Signature: Searing doom. Nearly guaranteed to kill those Cold One knights, or dragon princes, or whatever. Hydra and Doomwheel on a 4+. Cold one chariot on 3+... Don't know the HE chariot armour save but I'd target those as well.

1. Plague of Rust. -1 AS to any enemy. Permanently. Cumulative.

2. Enchanted blades of aiban gives +1 to hit with shooting, gives magical attacks and Armour Piercing... Ie. cast it on a HBVG and kill dragon princes.

3. Glittering robes... You have no use of glittering robes at all? The only thing you play with are knights, and the only thing your enemy has is Strenght 6 attacks? Seems to me you're being a little pessimistic. 2+ AS greatswords or 3+ AS swordsmen...

4. Gehenna's golden hound. One of our DE players uses one of their heroes on a dark pegasus with the pendant of cheese and a 2+ AS or something... Gehenna's would kill this guy, since it has no Strenght so the Pendant can't do anything. Otherwise snipe enemy unit champions if you want to challenge with your VHS Wizard lord. If for some reason the enemy has their general on a dark pegasus or a dragon or whatever, snipe those since they won't get a LOS.
Granted, those are the only uses for this spell I can see, so this spell will probably be useless in most games.


5. Transmutation of Lead gives -1 WS, BS and AS... How is this not useful? Cast it on an enemy WS4 in combat with your WS4 units.

6. Final Transmutation... 1/3 of the unit dies. Other units near it get stupidity.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Signature: I think chariots have a 4+ AS but chariots are really my least worry. Dragon Princes are nearly immune to flaming attacks, so that leaves two serious units. No counter to an Abom either.

1. Plague of Rust: On low-armour troops, seriously? They're mostly saving on 6's anyways. It's nifty but is it worth it compared to other lores?

2. Enchanted blades: Best one ever.

3. Glittering robes: A 4+ isn't that great when your opponent has S5, of which there is a lot. Perhaps it's best in a list with many GS. I don't know, I just feel that taking Knights, DG or a STank in such a list is a bit of a waste.

4. Gehenna's golden hound: Good thinking on this one. Perhaps that skitterleaping Fellblade guy...IF he has any armour to start with.

5. Transmutation of Lead gives -1 WS, BS and AS: That's not useful because it doesn't phase those Elves. They still don't need to bother with the dice! WS is really not an important skill.

6. Final Transmutation: I know what it does, it's the worst of the big spells.  I'd rather get that Fire spell, move or S4 on everyone and wound on 3+ or stop them in their tracks...

Negative I know, so let me say I really appreciate your feedback. I'm probably going to say to hell and try it regardless.

[Drmooreflava]

WS is an important stat, as are all stats. The transmutation of lead is sub-par compared shadow because miasma can lower the WS by D3 at a lower casting value. WS is very important in my book because the worse chance of getting hit by your opponent can greatly effect the chance of getting wounded, which is why I like swordsmen for the ws4. Now WS might not be a big deal for HE and DE cuz of the rerolls but you are still giving yourself better odds. The spell is so boringly weak that an opponent might just let you have it to save his dispel dice for your bigger spells (not that the lore of metal has anything terribly devastating)

I too have been thinking about the lore of metal, I am particularly interested in swordsmen with the 5+ scaley skin for a 3+ 6+ in combat 

The lore of metal offers some interesting options and I bet it is a lot of fun if you are bored of playing the same lores over and over again. I know I am, fricken Waagh magic and Lore of the vampires get boring quick.

[TheBelgianGuy]

I know I am, fricken Waagh magic and Lore of the vampires get boring quick.

Dunno about the Waagh magic, but the Lore of vampires is pretty brutal... at least when I'm the victim.
Damn curse of years. Yeah it only kills on a 6+ at first, and you can dispell it before the 5+ happens... but damn it, it's a fricking hex. A HEX. And
 soooo easy to cast compared to all other big spells... in fact, the entire Lore is pretty easy to cast. And that invocation of Nehek stuff...

I fired a HBVG into a unit of graveguard with a vampire in it, right? did 8 kills or so, opponent goes 'hbvg is so overpowered! 8 kills wtf!' (I noted that it was because my engineer rerolled a misfire... that's 200 points, killing 8 gravegaurd... yeah, not that great really). He then proceeded to resurrect 7 of them back... Yeah.

Snip

Well Lore of Metal ruins the day of my Brettonia and WoC opponents in my club. I can imagine it'd be completely useless against your skaven and high elf adversaries. I suppose it is a very situational lore, certainly not a good for an all-comers list.

[Drmooreflava]

I find that the 8th ed army book lores are somewhat situational/one dimensional. The lores in the BRB seem a bit more well rounded, though, one could argue that metal isn't well rounded.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Okay, I've just tried Gelt. That was a quicky, wasn't it?   But first let me reply to some aspects:

Now WS might not be a big deal for HE and DE cuz of the rerolls but you are still giving yourself better odds.

That was the point - I see them hitting 9 out of 10 times more often than not. Lowering their WS in almost all cases means they're still hitting me on base 3, so I don't bother.

I too have been thinking about the lore of metal, I am particularly interested in swordsmen with the 5+ scaley skin for a 3+ 6+ in combat 

I believe it looks a lot better on paper than in reality. Yes, it can reverse the odds but then you chance upon a Blender Lord or some unit deleter and that's that.

I have of course used Metal several times before, and it never did what it said on the can. We've just now finished a game (2,500 vs HE). I didn't risk to move Gelt early on due to 4 Bolters and then he died on turn 2 or 3 to a miscast! Luckily the HE L4 followed a turn later by reducing himself to an L1. Not a good test of Gelt or his Lore any way we look at it but it still supports my previous reservations. He cast Scales once, and some arrows pinged off (meh), he gave a unit of Handgunners + Hochland + 2 Engineers + 2 Hochlands +1 to hit once, and they didn't wound (meh). Not sure if he did anything else...Banishment at least killed dozens of Archers.

[Just for completeness' sake, we did not quite know whether it was turn 5 or 6 when we calculated points, and my Altar could have fled off the board, so we agreed upon a tie. I'm pretty certain it was turn 6, in which case I would have been ahead by ~250 points. Naturally not everyone likes "dead or fled"...ironically enough a shooty HE list vs combat/magic-leaning Empire]   

Nah, I'm going with something else the next time. Perhaps 2 L1's with Heaven's sig and an L4 Death... -5 Ld, dead BSB in an ideal setting, what's steadfast again? 

[Spiney]

Signature: I think chariots have a 4+ AS but chariots are really my least worry. Dragon Princes are nearly immune to flaming attacks, so that leaves two serious units. No counter to an Abom either.

1. Plague of Rust: On low-armour troops, seriously? They're mostly saving on 6's anyways. It's nifty but is it worth it compared to other lores?

2. Enchanted blades: Best one ever.

3. Glittering robes: A 4+ isn't that great when your opponent has S5, of which there is a lot. Perhaps it's best in a list with many GS. I don't know, I just feel that taking Knights, DG or a STank in such a list is a bit of a waste.

4. Gehenna's golden hound: Good thinking on this one. Perhaps that skitterleaping Fellblade guy...IF he has any armour to start with.

5. Transmutation of Lead gives -1 WS, BS and AS: That's not useful because it doesn't phase those Elves. They still don't need to bother with the dice! WS is really not an important skill.

6. Final Transmutation: I know what it does, it's the worst of the big spells.  I'd rather get that Fire spell, move or S4 on everyone and wound on 3+ or stop them in their tracks...

Negative I know, so let me say I really appreciate your feedback. I'm probably going to say to hell and try it regardless.

I wouldn't be so down on plague of rust, ok it's one of the lores' weaker spells but it still has a use, especially since the effect is permanent and cumulative, chaos warriors hate it, and most of the lores have a "dud" in them, I'd rather have plague of rust than shield of thorns from life for example.

I also don't think final transmutation is so bad, in some ways I think it's better than PSX because it can't misfire or fall short of its target, and above all it is consistent, I.e. it's damage potential is not dependent on the enemy stat line. And do you know how much my opponents hate 2+ greatswords with glittering robe.

[jaggedjimmyj]

Nowadays I'm always rolling with a LvL4 metal. And contrary to popular belief I always find a use for it, even vs lightly armored foes.

I also don't think final transmutation is so bad, in some ways I think it's better than PSX because it can't misfire or fall short of its target, and above all it is consistent, I.e. it's damage potential is not dependent on the enemy stat line. And do you know how much my opponents hate 2+ greatswords with glittering robe.

Final transmutation is great! Perfect for taking on death stars and all that, but what really makes it shine tho' is the stupidity test. It can really help turning the tide of battle. Especially on a flank when the BSB isn't near.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Noght, I agree on Final Transmutation, it really isn't so bad especially considering the casting value. I don't agree with your reasons, jaggedjimmyj: Death stars are rarely on a flank away from General & BSB, and several Deathstars consist of multi-wounders which you kill only on a 6.

[jaggedjimmyj]

Noght, I agree on Final Transmutation, it really isn't so bad especially considering the casting value. I don't agree with your reasons, jaggedjimmyj: Death stars are rarely on a flank away from General & BSB, and several Deathstars consist of multi-wounders which you kill only on a 6.

The targeting of death stars was intended to be a reason separate from the flank one.
And the way I see it the presence of multi-wounders on a death star is a boon. When I faced VC he had a 3 characters in the same unit, this gave me a 50% chance to kill one of them outright on a successful transmutation. In my opinion that is a good thing. (I'm undecided whether it'd be good vs an ogre death start tho', but with a few chars in it I think it could be).

Targeting a flank is nice when no other viable target can be found since this can severely cripple your foe there.

[Keith Rowland]

I believe it looks a lot better on paper than in reality. Yes, it can reverse the odds but then you chance upon a Blender Lord or some unit deleter and that's that.

That's not useful because it doesn't phase those Elves.

It seems some of your knocks against Metal are because of situational occurances. The addition of scaly skin to a unit isn't any good because you might face a blender lord? What about all the other instances where it IS useful?
Of course there are going to be exceptions to each spell but I've found that in general, Metal is a very good and often underated lore. It's the primary lore I take in every list.