Topic: Skaven rumors ( booo) End of Times, new pics + spoilers, Skaven 40k ?? WHAT!

[FVC]

He is a Vampire in the End Times. No reason not to have him as one.

Huh? No, he's not. Mallobaude only appears on pages 37-8 of End Times: Nagash, right? There is no mention of him being undead. And the fullest description we have of Mallobaude is on pages 31-2 of the WFRP supplement Barony of the Damned, which seems quite clear about him being a human.

The Return of Nagash mentions Mallobaude a few times, and chapter nineteen suggests that Arkhan had been planning for Mallobaude to be given the Blood Kiss at some point, there is no indication that it ever happened.

So: Mallobaude was/is not a vampire.

In any case, I would oppose making him a vampire because it flattens his character. Mallobaude is, to all intents and purposes, a Bretonnian Archaon: faithful knight, some terrible revelation shattered his faith, now he crusades to expose the central god of his nation as a lie. If a Bretonnian civil war plotline is going to be had, I think it's important that Mallobaude have at least a little credibility in his own right. If Mallobaude is a vampire, or worse, one of Arkhan's goons, then he has no credibility as a potential king. I mean, the important things about Mallobaude are that 1) he wants to be king, 2) he wants to expose or dethrone the Lady, and 3) he is restoring Mousillon. Adding vampirism to the mix undermines Mallobaude as a regnal candidate. Worse, it makes Mallobaude just a second Merovech.

I mean, cripes, people, Bretonnia already had an insane vampire duke of Mousillon who tried to make himself king by force. For that matter, Bretonnia still has a living crazy vampire lord who wants to take over: the Red Duke of Aquitaine. It doesn't need another one. Isn't that pretty hackneyed and unimaginative? Far better for Mallobaude to be what he is: an idealist and a blasphemer, the Black Knight who will restore Mousillon to its former glory, prove that the Lady is false, and take up his (maybe) father's crown. That's different. Diversity is good, you know?

[Baron von Klatz]

In addressing Luthor's list, it is a very creative list in my view and several parts of it were well thought out. I'm not much of a critic so I'll spare you any opinions of what to improve. I just hope my own list and ideas will look as good as yours.

Concerning Bretonnia on the mmo front if it had made it into Age of Reckoning. The worst outcome of this would have the experience feel copy-and-pasted from the dark age Camelot mmo.

I don't know, DAoC was pretty cool, from everything I've heard.

Oh indeed it is a good game, I meant no offense to it, I was just worried of people not familiar with warhammer of looking at mmo pictures of Bretonnia and assuming it is another generic fantasy setting.

This is what I would want for Bretonnia:

Quick thoughts:

Ugh, no Gilles and no spirit-Louen, please. Don't get your End Times all over my Bretonnia. Just keep the Green Knight, though preferably make him worth taking.

That's a bit of a problem concerning a new armybook isn't it? As the "Barony of the Damned" supplement and wood elf armybook lead up to the End Times events wouldn't the Bretonnian book be set after?

No Heavens on the Prophetess any more? I was thinking it might be nice to allow Light and perhaps even Fire. Maybe restore the old Empire-educated court wizards as well. I'd like a Merlin or two.

I was heavily considering such a character for my ideas on a new Bretonnian armybook, however,  I worried it would have been difficult to set him up in the my list. If he was going to be in my list I was going to put him alongside a vagrant faction "The bountied brotherhood" but it was a toss-up between him, a druid of ancient arts who used beast and shadow magic and a disgraced captain who brought along a unit of swivel guns (from the 4th edition I believe). The captain won out to appease the many people wanting crossbows and cannons, his swivel gunners bring a Bretonnian flair to the idea at least.

Moving yeomen to core is nice, and gives them a reason to exist alongside pegasus knights.

Regarding spirits: the fate of the boy-children is only mentioned in 'The Court Beneath', but that story sucks, so let's not bother. I'd rather keep them mysterious or else redo a lot of the kidnapping backstory. In any case. Ghosts are a Vampire Count thing. You might be able to do a bit with spirit knights, I guess.

Agreed on the yeomen but disagree with the spirit knights. Such mysterious beings should only be under the control of the Lady and not a honorable general.


Now then, on to my ideas for a Bretonnian army list. I'll skip most things concerning points and unit stats as I am not good at balancing such things. I'll leave characters up to debate but believe we should have alot of them and most should use our special equipment from the 6th edition as a new armybook will limit our magic items.

Virtue fix:
  -Virtue of the Penitent, hero becomes unbreakable and gains re-rollable ward saves. Cannot take magic equipment or be the Army's general. Can be placed on foot, mounted on warhorse or mounted on pegasus.

  -Virtue of Discipline,  hero and the unit he is with remain steadfast even if flanked and enemy does not receive +1CR for flanking.

Army list-
 Heroes:
 -Lord
  -Prophetess
  -Damsel
  -Paladin

 Core:
 -Knights Errant
 -Man-at-arms
 -Bowmen, gain mantlet upgrade, replaces stakes if purchased and acts as heavy cover vs range attacks. Can be moved with unit but is destroyed after single round of melee combat.
 -Knights of the Realm
 -Yeomen

Special:
 -Pegasus knights
 -Questing knights, can use either great weapons or morning stars.

Rare:
 -Trebuchet
 -Shrine of the Lady, placed with units with the peasant's vow (if put with yeomen they lose fast cavalry rule). The unit becomes stubborn and gains hatred along with receiving the Lady's blessing. If unit has ranged attacks then they become blessed arrows that are strength 4.

Special hero choices, known as Valiants. They do not count toward hero percentage but can only have one per 1000 points. Valiants cannot be army's general.

The King's Champions.


Paragon of the Grail:

 -Has stats of the Lord choice and has the Grail vow.
 -Is equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
 -Allows you to take a unit of Grail knights. (Does not have to be put in the unit)
 - Unit the hero joins gains strength four stomp on charge and attacks count as magical.


The Royal Tactician:

 -Has stats of the Paladin and knight's vow.
 -Equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a pegasus.
 -Units with knight's vow within 8" of hero can re-roll leadership tests to reform, peasant's vow units must be within 6" to do so.
 -All pegasus knight units gain +1CR when in combat.


Knight of the Bastion:
 -Paladin stats with knight's vow
 -Equipped with morning star, shield, hand weapon and heavy armor.
 -Replace all Man-at-arms champions with foot knights, champion gains extra attack, +2 leadership and unit re-rolls failed armor saves.
 -Unit that the hero is in becomes stubborn and re-rolls armor saves.

-Blessing of the Crown:
 *When you have all three of a factions Valiants on the field you gain a army wide ability.
  -Units with the blessing of the Lady can re-roll failed leadership tests.

The Lady's heralds.

Seeress of the blessed:
  -Has Prophetess stats and a lvl 4 wizard that can learn life, beast or light.
 -Equipped with hand weapon and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
  -Allows a knight unit to use one light spell from the first four choices as a bound spell.
       *loses bound spell if they lose the blessing.
  -Unit she is with re-rolls ward saves vs enemy magic targeting the unit.

Dame of the Rose:
     -Has Paladin stats and knight's vow.
    -Equipped with lance, hand weapon, heavy armor, shield and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
    -Questing knights become Defenders of virtue, they gain 5+ ward save and are stubborn.
     -Hero has killing blow and as long as hero has the blessing the hero gains +1 attack and unit with hero gains re-rollable ward saves.

Crusader of the Grail:
      -Has Paladin stats and vow of the quest.
      -Equipped with morning star, hand weapon, heavy armor, shield and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
      -Allows you to take a unit of Grail knights.
      -units with blessing gain hatred, unit with hero re-rolls wounds and becomes immune to psychology.

-Favored by the Lady.
 *Do not have to pray for the blessing and units with the blessing can re-roll ward saves.


The defenders of the Realm

Lord of the Hunt:
 -Has Lord stats and knight's vow.
 -Equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
 -Allows the use of Hobelars.
    *Yeoman without bows but with +1 strength and toughness.
  -Unit joined by hero and has knight's vow becomes fast cavalry.

Knight of the Lists:
  -Has Paladin stats and knight's vow.
  -Equipped with lance, shield, hand weapon, heavy armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
  -Unit's with knight's vow can re-roll hits on the charge and gain +1CR.
  -Unit with knight's vow joined by hero can re-roll wounds.

The Traveling Troubadour:
 -Has Paladin stats and knight's vow.
  -Equipped with hand weapon, light armor and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
  -All musicians are replaced with minstrels and gives units +1 leadership.
  -Unit with hero can re-roll leadership tests.

Guidance of the Lady.
  *Units with the blessing don't have to take dangerous terrain tests.

The Bountied Brotherhood.

Fallen champion:
  -Lord stats and has questing vow.
  -Equipped with greatsword, shield, hand weapon and heavy armor.
  -hero has killing blow, ASF and makes unit he's with stubborn.
  -Units with peasant's duty that are within 12" of the hero use his leadership and become stubborn.

The Bowmaster:
 -Paladin stats and has peasant's duty.
 -Equipped with longbow, hand weapon and light armor.
 -Bowmen champions are replaced with rangers, bowmen gain +1BS and re-roll hits.
 -Hero has sniper and killing blow, the unit hero is with gains the scout rule and front two ranks fire twice.

The disgraced Captain:
   -Paladin stats and knight's vow.
   -Equipped with hand weapon and light armor.
   -Allows the use of Swivel guns.
        *special choice with move-or-shoot and armor piercing,  has strength 5 attacks.(bowmen stats)
   -Hero gives his unit re-rollable leadership and ambush rules if unit has peasant's duty.

Strength of the People.
   *Units with peasant's duty gain +2 LD and +1WS.


The Black Court.

Sorceress of Shadows:
  -Has Prophetess stats and is a Lv4 wizard of shadow and death magic.
  -Equipped with hand weapon and Pegasus.
  -Can have either a chimera or hydra.

Knight of Dread Omens:
  -Has Paladin stats and questing vow.
  -Equipped with great weapon, shield, shield, hand weapon and rides a Bretonnian warhorse.
   -Makes questing knights become Exiles, they gain hatred and cause fear.
  -Hero re-rolls hits and wounds and unit he is with causes fear.

The Macabre Jongleur:
  -Damsel stats and is a Lv2 wizard of shadow magic.
   -Equipped with morning star and light armor.
  -Units with peasant's duty have their champions replaced with troupe of demise, enemies have to re-roll successful hits against those units.
  -Hero makes enemies re-roll hits against the hero's unit and gives the unit poisoned attacks.


Aura of Miasma.
  *Units with the blessing replace the ward saves with poisoned attacks, negates abilities reliant on the blessing.
 

Those are my ideas, the valiants are to lend a variety to the army by unlocking new units or abilities for you soldiers. An example is by taking the Knight of the Bastion you can focus on a heavy infantry force. I'll edit more sketches and rules later when I have time

Hope you lads like my ideas.


Edit: finally put down the rules for the rest of the Valiants.  If you lads like the idea I might make concept sketches to go along with them.

[Luthor]

I worded my original post wrong. But having read the End Times: Nagash, I know who Mallobaude is, and never intended for him to be a Vampire, but more akin to what Mordred was to Arthur.

He doesn't believe in chivalry, and essentially his creed is "might makes right" or "the strong rule the weak". In not being able to make use of the Servants of the Lady, and those who fervently worship them, he would have access to Vampire Counts units, including Necromancer magic user types and such.

In terms of the War Altar/Buff Wagon thing. Actually what I think would work a lot better, and fit the lore and such, would be a full blown Grail Chapel, that is like a unit and a piece of terrain at the same time.

Otherwise, I mixed up another thing, in that it was Armand of Aquitaine who was the Bretonnian Paladin Standard Bearer, and not Tancred II, who is likewise dead also, but instead his story was about Heimrich Kemmler being his arch enemy, much like the original Tancred of Quenelles.

Otherwise, two more hero units that could be looked at are, Hermit Knights, and the Knight of the Perilous Lance.

• Hermit Knights are those who almost went all the way in the quest to sup from the grail, but for one reason or another, didn't, and spend their days protecting Grail Chapels, and living as long bearded hermits. They could be Knights on foot, with a slightly superior profile to the stock standard Paladin, and have some interesting special rules.[/b]
  
  
• The Knight of the Perilous Lance, is the homage to the folk tale about the Knight who would show up to jousting tournaments, but would never take his helmet off, and would rarely speak, and no one would know who he is, aside from that he is a Knight of great martial prowess and rightly feared.

[Baron von Klatz]

I really liked the knight of the perilous lance, it would be great to see him back.

[FVC]

That's a bit of a problem concerning a new armybook isn't it? As the "Barony of the Damned" supplement and wood elf armybook lead up to the End Times events wouldn't the Bretonnian book be set after?

Just because GW's gone mad doesn't mean I have to.

(Barony of the Damned is WFRP 2nd edition and so is actually set after the Storm of Chaos, incidentally.)

I was heavily considering such a character for my ideas on a new Bretonnian armybook, however,  I worried it would have been difficult to set him up in the my list.

I was thinking of redoing some of Bretonnia's magical traditions. Court wizards fit their aesthetic quite nicely and feel different to the centralised Colleges, and enable storytelling possibilities. The abduction of children is creepy and has a nice fairy-tale-horror feel, but it does create roleplaying problems: firstly because it's very hard to play a Bretonnian wizard, and secondly because it's the sort of thing that creates player arguments, bad feelings, and if online, sometimes flame wars.

I think I might restrict the 'super-mage chosen by the Lady' thing to the Fay Enchantress herself, and then establish Bretonnia as a bit like Caithness in Banestorm. Bretonnian wizards are typically either educated abroad or are taught their craft via a master-apprentice system. Reclusive wizards with towers in the wilderness, or looking after holy sites, that sort of thing, with no organised or centralised tradition.

Now then, on to my ideas for a Bretonnian army list.

Looks mostly like a tweak of the Reynolds AB, to me.

He doesn't believe in chivalry, and essentially his creed is "might makes right" or "the strong rule the weak". In not being able to make use of the Servants of the Lady, and those who fervently worship them, he would have access to Vampire Counts units, including Necromancer magic user types and such.

I think I'd like to treat Mallobaude as someone with a little more integrity than that. Evil, yes, but Mallobaude is still a knight. (I liked the note in Barony of the Damned that Mallobaude will not execute or murder captured knights. He will always challenge them to a duel. Knights are courteous and they respect each other. Granted, these duels are usually one-sided, but even so, Mallobaude still follows the laws of honour.)

I'm not sure I'd take a Mordred angle here. The thing is, Mordred is ultimately an opportunist, not the sole or primary cause of Camelot's fall. That fall was the result of a tragic confluence of factors: adultery, treachery, feuds, and so on. I don't think I want to fit Mallobaude into that story, because Mallobaude's story is so completely about the Lady of the Lake; and Bretonnia's Lady of the Lake is too fundamentally different to any of the Arthurian ladies of the lake.

He doesn't believe in chivalry, and essentially his creed is "might makes right" or "the strong rule the weak". In not being able to make use of the Servants of the Lady, and those who fervently worship them, he would have access to Vampire Counts units, including Necromancer magic user types and such.

Do we really need to bring the bloody vampires in here?

[Darknight]

Listening to this discussion wants me to make a "dark knight" (natch) army - I have taken some of those motifs for my existing force, but that is based on the Catholic hospitaliers and pagan Hellenic legends.

If the new edition keeps the Brets, and if it is not some dreadful horror I cannot bear, I really think I might start a "dark knight" army using some of legends of Arthur, Mordred, and even the Shadow Court of the Fae. You have inspired me!

[The Red Graf]

Probably not what you had in mind, but I couldn't resist. Sorry about the crappy light.

[Xathrodox86]

Stunning stuff Graf. Truly inspiring!

[Luthor]

-

[Zak]

 

[Syphon]

As it happens I don't think Lileath makes sense as an identity for the Lady, much as I would say it's stupid if GW were to suggest that the Lady is really Slaanesh (hey, people of unearthly beauty and every time someone beholds their true form they descend to their knees and vow loyalty, you could have a conspiracy theory if you wanted). I don't necessarily mind the elves believing that the Lady is Lileath, mind you, because elves frequently believe things that are not true. Just ask a dwarf! What I really take offense to is the subordination of Bretonnian identity to elven identity. The problem with saying 'the Lady is Lileath' is the same problem with the old idea that the Lady is Ariel: it privileges the elf faction story over the Bretonnia faction story. But the thing is, as a Bretonnian story, I don't care about all that seasonal Horned-God-and-mother-Goddess quasi-Neopagan bulls--- in Athel Loren. That's their thing. Similarly, the High Elf faction story, with their vaguely Grecian deities and focus on prophecy and magic and an air of dignified yet inevitable tragedy and decline is also their story. Not mine. My faction story is the Lady of the Lake and the Twelve Great Battles and the Grail Quest and the flawed but still valiant knightly sons and daughters of Bretonnia. Please don't turn that story into just a sideshow of someone else's story. Bretonnia's identity is very different to the elves' identity, and it's the uniqueness and independence of that identity that I want to see preserved.

I just had to join the conversation here. I completely agree with you, FVC. But the likelihood of this happening is pretty high. Why? Because elves seem to be the go-to guys in all fantasy. And that pisses me off. Tolkien started it, you know. He was the first to say that the elves were the "Firstborn" in the Silmarillion and all of them are all really tragic heroes and so on and so on. But all it really does is make them llook like gigantic doucheholes the size of the Grand Canyon. Elrond was a douchehole. He could've saved all the world so much trouble if he'd just kicked Isildur into the fires of Mount Doom. But no. Because he was a douchehole. He could've done it for selfish reasons (No Aragorn means no losing Arwen to mortality) or for altruistic reasons (No Ring means no chance of Sauron ever returning). This guy could see the future, and saw first hand the rise of Melkor. And yet he was still a gigantic douchehole.

Elves in GW are just as bad. Teclis being the main magician that taught the puny humans how to utilize magic (but not all! They are way too frail for that!)  Or the whole affair with the dwarves. They knew the worst insult was to cut off their beards. And they did it anyway. And not once did the high elves consider the fact "Oh hey, there are other, nasty elves out there. Keep an eye out for them". Not once did they tell the elves. They are doucheholes so full of themselves and convinced of their own superiority that they become the worst race ever.

[Syphon]

Now addressing Philhelm's list of possible Bretonnian ideas. I really like most of it but feel the assassin and brigands a bit out of place, the assassin would turn into a Assassin's creed knock-off in no time and I really dislike the belief an unarmored individual could best an armored one in close combat. Besides that, I think Bretonnia's future list would benefit from focusing on it's heroes.

I included ideas for shadier units since I prefer a Bretonnia of heroes and villains.  Even in the previous, bright and shiny background from 5th Edition, Mousillon existed as evidence of this.  I think options are important since some players may want to field the 'black knights."  A dark lord, an assassin, a sorceress with the Lore of Undeath, some black knights, men-at-arms, and some n'er-do-wells would make for a decent Mousillon list.  As it stands now, there aren't enough options and too many compulsory choices that limit creativity with the Bretonnian list.

I wouldn't get your hopes up about Mousillon. The way I see it, and I suspect that GW does too, is that Mousillon is just there to provide contrast, like Sylvania does for the Empire. "It's not all fun and games here, guys! There's a few zombies here too!"

[The Red Graf]

Stunning stuff Graf. Truly inspiring!

Thanks guys, In this case I can wholeheartedly join in the praise because while I own this lovely army I did not paint it. A few years ago I was in my local game store trying to talk the owner into selling me his custom painted Empire army. Probably to throw me off the sent he told me about a Vampire Counts army painted up using Bretonnian models that he was trying to sell for a third party. It seems the painter was getting ready to go to Law School and needed the cash. As soon as I saw it I fell in love, the whole thing is really well done, but the knights are the real selling point. Just stunning. Really the pictures I took do not do them justice. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the guy that did them. Poor bastard, if he made it through Law School he has probably figured out that nothing he will ever do as a lawyer will be as epic as painting that army. Glad you like it though. I really need to take it out of the case and play with it, but it's just so damn pretty.

I see why they call you The Red Graf. That is an amazing conversion, and I have to ask, what head is that you have used for him? He kind of looks like a red version of Berenduin of Bastonne, who looks like your model, but his colour scheme is blue and white, and he has that chainmail coif head also.

No, no, I'm the Red Graf, that's the Red Duke. No relation I assure you sir. I always imagined that the Red Graf was an Imperial Noble from Ostland. Perhaps a former mercenary from a proud family who was none the less tainted by rumors of Slaanesh worship. 

I am afraid I can't help with info about the model, other than to say that the horse started out as the Green Knights mount.

I got a request to show some more pictures of this army. If I start a thread in the brush and pallet am I breaking the rules by displaying a non Empire army?

[Syn Ace]

I wouldn't think so. People display all kinds of stuff in there.

[warhammerlord_soth]

You can post any warhammer army in the B&P...

[Darknight]

And there are even some posts of things that aren't Warhammer, but are modelling, and some things that aren't modelling, but are artistic. It is pretty free-for-all in what is allowed there. Is it visual art? Goes in there.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

It is pretty free-for-all in what is allowed there.

A bit like the Back Table - although that is more Brush & Toilette.