Topic: Your experineces against High Elves in TOW?

[Zygmund]

My local meta recently has High Elves beating all opposition. Experienced players for sure, but there seems to be something in the HE army that allows this.

They usually run lists like:
- one flying figthy lord (friendly, so not a dragon but the eagle thing)
- L4 mage, often on pegasus
- perhaps a third character, be it bsb or another mage
- 1-2 units of spears
- 1-2 units of bows
- 1-2 units of those pricey knights
- 1-2 units of swordmasters (if 1, it's big)
- 1 unit of shadow warriors
- 2 bolters

- Quite good shooting & ranged magic.
- Fast, with the ability to combo charge over 15". A couple of spells help in the speed & positioning for charges.
- That spell which makes a unit ethereal really helps the Swordmasters to get into grips with the enemy without losing models to shooting.
- The eagle-thing lord, if he makes it within the opponent's ranks, will have much to charge, whether warmachines, flanks or rears.

There's something in this combo that makes both horde armies (goblins, skaven) and elite/shooty armies (dwarfs) shake. Balanced Empire seems to lack a bit behind in every category. And most Empire shooting cannot be made magical, so only spells & magic weapons, or combat res, will effect the Swordmasters gone ethereal. But they always win combats because of striking first and killing the front rank, so the opponents usually have to take the test.

With T3, the HE units are squishy, but it's just so hard to do damage on them in time. They get through the shooting so fast, and then strike before in melee.

Again, these are experienced players who know the game deeply and have more TOW games under their belt than any others.

Do you have ideas or proven tactics against these kind of armies?

-Zyg

[Footpatrol2]

I've been thinking on ethereal and how it will be more common due to high magic. Our answer to etheral is a witchunter of the demon for mass magical attacks. Place the witchhunters in a missle unit of your choice. Pew pew sword masters.

Elves HATE missile troops.

Maybe to ensure he doesn't out deploy your missile unit scout archers (20 ish maybe more) place the unit near/in your own deployment and have the witchhunter join the unit first turn. Volley fire away. The archer unit will be a top priority for him so use that to your advantage for counter charging.

Witchhunter of the demon might become popular depending on your meta.

Also mortars are great vs elves.

[commandant]

That looks like 8- 12 drops to me.   There isn't much we can do against the ethereal nonsense though if attacks from magic missiles are magical (I would assume but I don't know) then dark magic's signature spell allows you to drop a 3 inch template on them anywhere within 24 inches and its only an 8+ to cast.   A few level 2 wizards with this spell kicking around your army for fire support might be useful.   These level 2 wizards should not have that much difficulty in staying outside the dispell bubble of his mage.

Against the more expensive elves combat detachments will be useful.   Running them in 6-8 wide would be good I think.   You want to stack the attacks and give him questions about who and what to attack.   Also combat detachments mean that you are stacking up a lot of attacks that he needs to deal with.   It greatly increases your force concentration and there is nothing in this list as suggested to screen or charge the detachments so he would have to use magic or shooting to deal with them.

Helstrom rocket batteries are really good against elves.   They don't need line of sight and they fire up to 3 3 inch template.   So you can hide it somewhere with an engineer and fire away.   
Likewise the Helblaster is likely good.
   
 

[pathstrider]

If the sword master unit is big, would bogging it down with equivalent numbers of cheap state troops work? Same numbers would be something like half to a third of the points, sure it’s going to lose but it has a chance of FBIGO.

How wide is the big sword master unit? I’m trying to gauge how many attacks it’s throwing out so how long a state unit would last before it’s outnumbered.

Otherwise, shooting it when it’s not ethereal is a reasonable plan - it’s not much tougher against shooting than a normal spear elf.

On the “pricey knight units” - if this means Dragon Princes then they’re impetuous so they need to be baited away.

[Zygmund]

Thanks, this is all good advice!

How wide is the big sword master unit? I’m trying to gauge how many attacks it’s throwing out so how long a state unit would last before it’s outnumbered.

Two units of 15-18, 5- or 6-wide, or one unit of 20+, 8-wide. However, I think they buy the drilled option for the big unit, so can go wider before charging. Which is really good when you strike first and got only one attack per model. They can forfeit the rank bonus because they're likely to get more kills than they lose in ranks.

I think you need spears, and/or a very wide formation, and/or counter charging detachments to get any attacks back. Against normal units 5- or 6-wide, the bib Swordmaster unit often erases the whole first rank.

On the “pricey knight units” - if this means Dragon Princes then they’re impetuous so they need to be baited away.

Yes. That's them. These players usually can bring the unit close enough so that it has multiple charge options. Baiting would only work if the baiting unit screens the others and holds against the charge. Probably a wide unit of Free Company could achieve this. Needs very careful position, because it will get rolled over and the Dragon Princes pursuit/overrun.

-Zyg

[pathstrider]

Two units of 15-18, 5- or 6-wide, or one unit of 20+, 8-wide. However, I think they buy the drilled option for the big unit, so can go wider before charging. Which is really good when you strike first and got only one attack per model. They can forfeit the rank bonus because they're likely to get more kills than they lose in ranks.

I think you need spears, and/or a very wide formation, and/or counter charging detachments to get any attacks back. Against normal units 5- or 6-wide, the bib Swordmaster unit often erases the whole first rank.

The way I see it you are never ever going to win a combat against that unit with state troops, so why throw more points into the unit? All you need it to do is stand it’s ground and get rescued by something else, so it’s FBGIO or nothing and that’s a numbers game only to avoid being outnumbered.

It’s depressing as I know we’d all like to win with our state troops but tbh if a unit of sword masters like that can’t wipe the floor with state troops it would be equally wrong for the game.

As an aside, the more I’m hearing about drilled shenanigans plus wide units the more I’m wondering why ToW has theses complex solutions to a problem that was imo essentially solved in 8th by just letting more ranks fight.

[Warlord]

As an aside, the more I’m hearing about drilled shenanigans plus wide units the more I’m wondering why ToW has theses complex solutions to a problem that was imo essentially solved in 8th by just letting more ranks fight.

I agree, TOW rules do seem unnecessarily complex in some areas.

[Clymer]

Others have mentioned witch hunters with suffer not the daemon. I say put him on a warhorse in some outriders.

There’s also the magic missile wizard: Arcane Familiar, Ruby Ring, on a Pegasus. You take Doombolt and The Summoning, and this guy generating 4d6 S4 hits and a template each turn. It can zap a lot of ethereal Swordmasters. Just look out for his other wizard’s Drain Magic which makes it harder to cast.

Otherwise, yeah, that’s a tough unit to take on.

[Dazgrim]

As an aside, the more I’m hearing about drilled shenanigans plus wide units the more I’m wondering why ToW has theses complex solutions to a problem that was imo essentially solved in 8th by just letting more ranks fight.

I suspect there are a couple of key reasons, one of which is that 8th isn't hugely popular, they killed the game for a reason.

They have clearly IMO looked at what the favourite editions were and concluded that 5th and 6th were the pinnacle. So the rules have been written to feel like those editions. I suspect this is part of why they have overpowered characters on big monsters. They were popular in 5th, they're also big centrepiece models that sell well and with a higher profit margin than rank and file troops.

My understanding of 8th is that step up combined with horde forced the game into a deathstar meta. A local opponent keeps talking about a unit of 40 KoWW with a bevvy of characters to buff it to hell and back.

With TOW and HH the intent seems to be to appeal to grognards. Certainly if you didn't have an existing army and were want to play in a GW event there's pretty much no way you can play 4.5 of the 9 factions.
0.5 is wood elves because I think you can build a dryad/treeman list from AoS kits.

[pathstrider]

I’m certainly a grognard, as I’d played all editions since 3rd up to the end of 8th. While you may be right that they wanted to get away from 8th cause of association with failure, for me it’s striking they’re trying to get the same place magic aside (and that’s a big aside)

ToW seems to be aiming at the same things that 8th was - 8th was going for centrepiece units but hadn’t implemented it right for ridden monsters, but at the same time wanted to give infantry a reason for existing.

Arguably horde and step up were a bridge too far, but FBIGO seems to me to be doing something very similar to what steadfast was previously doing - though I’m neutral on which one works better here. What I do miss from 8th was fighting and shooting in 2 ranks, as it gave some incentive for smaller more elite units without needing to conga line frontage which ToW seems to be doing.

I personally don’t draw comparisons to 5th - monsters were common, but my recollection is that was just because people liked taking them and everything seemed a lot more casual (maybe I was just younger). My recollection is that the tournament scene, or at least the large scale recognition and discussion of lists, wasn’t really that common as the internet was just getting going. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that things like MSU and TVI came about in 6th edition when forums (like here!) came into being.

And on deathstars - iirc 7th edition was bad for these, it’s just they were cav deathstars. Certainly in 6th and 7th I recall infantry having a very hard time with how easy it was to negate rank bonuses.

[Warlord]

It wasn't step up that created the deathstar meta. It was attack in 2 ranks + horde (attack in 3 ranks) and steadfast (so those big units weren't moving either). Plus all the buffs from magic and characters.

Shooting in 2 ranks worked - it wasn't ever an overpowered component of 8th ed.

I agree that FBIGO is kinda doing what Steadfast did, but differently. I am not sure I like FBIGO, however I do like that units move around the battlefield a little bit more. I think there is perhaps still space for old school stubborn in the mix, with FBIGO and GG, but too late now.

5th edition was dominated by characters on dragons or big flying monsters, and generally a duel between characters was how a game was decided, with units forming the backdrop, and occasionally doing interesting things.

7th to me was the tidiest of all the editions. The rules were clean and clear, but a few armylists at the end of the edition (Skaven and Demons) started breaking it.

[sedobren]

I've had one game against them, although i was using empire models as bretonnian exiles most of the situations would have been similar i think.

First lothern seaguard  is to be expected imho. He played a big pie of nearly 40, with razor standard, a noble and a supporting high magic lvl 4 mage. They resisted the whole game (breaking point) and did a lot of damage.

The bolters are good, although more effective in this case since i had knigts on lance formations vs probably just on/two ranks for normal imperial knights. I should have focus my two cannons fire on them early. Scouting Archers did very little, no losses though the 6 turns but also i caused very little casualties (and they had longbows mind you), despite being very close to most units they were simply ignored. I'd say use minimum units as detachments to screen bigger units.

Knights where the star of the game for me (which i lost by a couple of wounds btw), although bretonnian ones are faster so i thing you should mix them with demigryphs. They routed and destroyed one dragon princes unit, one errant got wiped out by the bolters (again less of an issue with linear imperial knights), the big one got destroyed on the lothern guard after i flicting a couple of retreats. There were also 2 chrace chariots, one got destroyed by a cannon, the other wiped out a yeomen guard unit and then got destroyed by the other cannon. Bring cannons

Speaking of infantry, they yeoman guard survived because of its special rules (shieldwall and stubborn) so don't bring regula infantry imho. I had a unit of foot knights (greatswords basically) and while the mage inside did s lot with demonology, the unit never got to fight and was wiped out in the shooting phases of the game.

I i had the empir i would have brought a steam tank, there were times where i really needed it - like it would have bee amazing vs the big units of seaguard, shooting with the steam cannon, blocking los, charging and grinding them. Use him it will work well.

I also brought the brigands with the blunderbuss. They are not available to the empire but outriders and/or hellblasters might do the same. It pains me that the empire has no access to the actual militia kit while bretonnia does...

Rhe other star was the baron on hippogriff. It's not as good but i'd suggest at least one captain/general on griffon. Maybe one big one with the general and one smaller with the captain. Or a captain on pegasus to tak down machines!

[pathstrider]

Speaking of infantry, they yeoman guard survived because of its special rules (shieldwall and stubborn) so don't bring regula infantry imho. I had a unit of foot knights (greatswords basically) and while the mage inside did s lot with demonology, the unit never got to fight and was wiped out in the shooting phases of the game.

Out of curiosity, how did you manage to keep the grail monk safe? I would have expected him to be target number 1 to remove the stubborn.

[commandant]

How many attacks does the swordmaster unit have.   Like 9 attacks (8 wide and 1 attack each) is 5 wounds (hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+). What does that unit cost. Depending on their armour a halberdier (hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+) needs 15 attacks to generate 5 wound. 18 if they have 6+ armour).

State troops can (using combat detachments) get this number of attacks.   Also if you have battle lust they can get many more attacks than this.

[Footpatrol2]

Because of their crazy high initiative the sword masters will in most cases strike first. Your best option is to shoot them off then static res them with their depleted numbers.

[The Peacemaker]

I dod see the high elves in play with that net list. But my strategy is still theory:

First, insist on playing the recommended board length of 44? Inches. So elves can't sit too far back.

Second: don't bother with state troops. Switch armies if you want infantry. Seriously, state troops are bottom tier and in GW games that means they sit in the shelf until next edition except for funsies games. This is no shock to anyone unless you are new to GW. If you can't except this, then go play another game system that is balanced like T9A or something else.

Third, take ranged:
Stank(always a Stank or switch armies, maybe flagellant linehammer can work, im not sure).
1 cannon
1 mortar.
Target their bolt throwers with cannons, mortar targets bolt throwers too. Win the bolt thrower war.

I probably would stay out of their archers range until you kill the bolt throwers, you spend remaining rounds until swordmasters get destroyed by mortars. Then you advance.

If his bolt throwers kill your artillery, then hide in corner and go for a small loss. But i guess the game is win/loss so i guess you could just Yolo it.

[Dazgrim]

How many attacks does the swordmaster unit have.   Like 9 attacks (8 wide and 1 attack each) is 5 wounds (hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+). What does that unit cost. Depending on their armour a halberdier (hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+) needs 15 attacks to generate 5 wound. 18 if they have 6+ armour).

State troops can (using combat detachments) get this number of attacks.   Also if you have battle lust they can get many more attacks than this.

The swordmasters are I7 when you charge them, I10 if they charge you.

Your detachment strategy is dubious against nominally weaker troops. Against Swordmasters you're just feeding your opponent kills.

[Warlord]

If you can't except this, then go play another game system that is balanced like T9A or something else.

T9A isn't balanced. It makes a very good attempt to be though, but sometimes at the expense of uniqueness because stuff like that is difficult to balance.

[The Peacemaker]

I just re-read sword masters entry. Those are bonkers for 14 points.
Nothing in Empire can engage it except for the steam tank. This units only weakness is a impact hits. And getting shot.

Elf elites being base initiative 5 is pretty bad game balance. Should be 4 like their core. And swordmaster having i6 with S5, AP2  is broken.

[Warlord]

I just re-read sword masters entry. Those are bonkers for 14 points.
Nothing in Empire can engage it except for the steam tank. This units only weakness is a impact hits. And getting shot.

I know right! Considering our Greatswords are 11 points, and these guys are 14, its completely imbalanced and broken. Perhaps 11 points for our greatswords if they also came with veteran and drilled instead of being add-ons

[Footpatrol2]

You just need to shoot them. They die to str 3 bow fire... Do not combat them.

Or tie them up with a steam tank which may or may not die.

[Minsc]

Empires solution for Swordsmasters has always been shooting (including magic) and impact hits (except for 8th Ed. where we could win trough sheer attrition - but let's not talk about 8th Ed.)
An Arch Lector on Waraltar used to be able to tank them really well with his T5 1+/4++ but those days are gone...

Swordsmasters are really good (as someone who used to play Dark Elves between 6th and 8th, comparing them to Executioners now in TOW just makes me groan), but they do only have 1 attack each, so even if you end up in combat with them, they aren't that unlikely to whiff.

I'd even dare say that Demigryphs are a decent counter to them now as well; both the Demigryphs and the Swordmasters will be I7 if the Demigryphs charge, and this is an exchange the Swordmasters won't enjoy:

Swordsmasters deployed 7 wide is 8 attacks, 5,33 hits, 3,55 wounds, DGKs have a 2+ that becomes a 4+, leading to 1,78 (round up to 2 with Cleaving Blow) wounds at average.

Every retaliating DGK will inflict 0,416 wounds from the Knight (double from a Preceptor) and 1,25 from the demigryph, so;
A unit of 3 DGKs would inflict 4,99 (5) wounds on the Swordsmasters.
A unit of 4 DGKs including Preceptor would inflict 7,08 (7) wounds on the Swordsmasters.

So 4 DGK's /w FC charging into 21 Swordmasters /w FC are likely to not suffer a single casualty and will most likely win combat by ~4 (7 wounds vs 2 wounds and 1 rank - both have standard and close order). Unless they have a Prince and BSB nearby, they are likely to FBIGO at which point the above scenario plays out all over again if you chose to pursue.
This time one DGK will die (but it does get to attack) and once the dust settles and it's time for another breaktest, the Swordmasters have shrunk from 21 to 7, and the 4 DGK's have only shrunk from 4 to 3. 

[Dazgrim]

Swordsmasters are really good (as someone who used to play Dark Elves between 6th and 8th, comparing them to Executioners now in TOW just makes me groan), but they do only have 1 attack each, so even if you end up in combat with them, they aren't that unlikely to whiff.

How do they differ from executioners? I thought the units were pretty much identical.

Edit: I retract that comment. The difference is nuts. And the Executioners make greatswords look awful.

[The Peacemaker]

Even the drilled special rule on Swordmasters is 1pt while on dread elves it's 2pts.

GW really didn't edit their books at all. 1 guy writing everything in an 8 hours shift. ...and he showed up late, took an hour lunch break, and then left early, on a Friday.
...and his main army is high elves.

...I suspect either island of blood set to be re-re-re-released. Or new swordmaster models inbound.

[Warlord]

...and his main army is high elves.

Oh definitely.