Topic: 40K

[Mathi Alfblut]

Rufus seems to be unable to detect when I try my hand on his own style of subtle ironic jokes. 

Have a pint, Rufus!

However, the way you put it was open to interpretations. Namely that you did not like tanks and that real armoured vehicles did not make any sense, hence the model was bad. Not that you just don´t like the look of it, aestethically. Aestethics have nothing to do with wether a design is stupid or not.
Fact is that it was a very good design for defensive and ambush warfare and served the germans well. How about concluding that you feel it looks ugly, since that is an aestethic value. Looking like a stupid design is something you can´t really say anything about unless you know something about tanks.
So, you could have saved yourself an entire post! 
Or simply said that it did not appeal to your aestethics, but that you did not know anything about the function of armoured vehicles.
With that reply I would not have done more than nudge you a bit in jest. 

Now, your reply appeared high and mighty, as if coming form Armchair general Rufus of Wellington. Not your intention, but that was how it looked. I more or less understood what you meant, but could not help but playing your own style against yourself for a change. 

[rufus sparkfire]

Or in other words, someone not agreeing with you is a good excuse for a lecture.

Tanks don't exist anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

[Finlay]

Or simply said that it did not appeal to your aestethics, but that you did not know anything about the function of armoured vehicles.

except that is exactly what he did say.

It looks like a stupid design to me. Which probably means it's based on a real one, or something. I don't know anything about tanks.

HE even pointed out it was probably a real design.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Still, could be my foreign understanding, but the way the text was laided out made it look like it was about how stupid real world tanks are.
But it can boil down to something as simple as me and McKnights nordic understanding of our native grammar making us sometimes misinterpretate subtle differences in meaning in the english sentences and sometimes we write something that for you looks odd and meaning something different than what we intended.

Ah, the miracle of lingua franca.

I think that somehow I hear Rufus speaking with a sarcastic voice when he writes things, making me read in tones and meanings that sometimes are there, sometimes not. 

Sorry mates! Truly sorry. I love you anyway, Rufus. 

[rufus sparkfire]

Oh, that's nice! Thanks.

I do forget sometimes that english is not everyone's native language. Because you are all so good at it.

[MrDWhitey]

As was said earlier, Tank Destroyers were made in great numbers due to being cheaper to produce, and (sometimes) having a much lower profile.

The StuG is my favourite tank destroyer, the Jagdpanther was ok, but I dislike it's high profile, much prefer the "diminutive" Hetzer (but I still think the StuG > all)

I think the silliest german tank destroyer was the aptly named Elefant, and the Jagdtiger annoys me by looking too much like a King Tiger.

I'm assuming you're the hamster, McKnight?

[McKnight]

Ah yes the stug! Its awesome! But not really a tank destroyer per se, but an assault gun. Its gun wasnt only designed for antitank purposes, but only anti inf.
Its also one of my favourites.
To tell the truth, i can never remember the visual differences of the jagdpanther, jagdpanzer and jagdtiger xD...

Yes im the hamster

[McKnight]

Have any of you had any experiences with the leman russ punisher?

[MrDWhitey]

Jadgpanzers look like smaller Jagdpanthers, simplistically. The JPanther was just much bigger. Of course there are other differences, but this is very general.

The Elefant looked like a super Hummel. The body of a Tiger tank with a huge superstructure at the back.

The Jagdtiger looked like a King Tiger with the turret expanded outwards to be flush with the body. Hell, just go on google and look. 

[Merrick]

Have any of you had any experiences with the leman russ punisher?

Yes, my brother has one.

They're awesome.

Even heavily armoured foes end up having to be wary of so many potential armour saves.

[Aldaris]

I used it only once in a Plaentary Invasions game against CSM/Demons. The Demons didn't like it much.

[McKnight]

Yea i just googled them Mr D ,,,, 

So what do you equip them with?

I was thinking heavy bolter sponsons and a heavy stubber just for maximum firepower but thats 210pts. For 30 pts more you can have the executioner and 5 plasma blasts and no armour save.

I also think the 24" range wont allow the punisher to stand much still and be able to fire its sponsons so im thinking of saving them off and keep mobility. But i have to try them some time.
I just dont like that they are so expensive. But Rear av 11 is nice! Although the executioner also has this 

I was thinking of trying them in a list like this: (all chimeras have hull flamers
Company comm. 3 plasmas, 1 medic and chimera
veteran squad, 3 plasmas, chimera
veteran squad, 3 flamers, chimera
veteran squad, 3 meltas - in vendetta
2x1 vendetta
2x1 medusa with bastion shells
2 LR punishers.

And have the punishers lead the assault followed by the chimeras. While the medusas and vendettas provide firesupport against tanks and monsters.
One of the vendettas with have a veteran squad as reserve guys. Dno which squad it should be.

[Merrick]

Executioners are better.

[patsy02]

I like that British tank destroyer where they'd put the gun facing backwards so they could hide in a bush and drive straight off in the opposite direction of the enemy after the first shot.

Awesome! What was it called? The Runforit Mk I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_%28tank_destroyer%29
Archer.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Well, the swedish S-tank could drive as fast backwards as forward. It was really an assault gun/tank destroyer but it made sense if you expected to fight delay and ambush action against superior russian armour in north Sweden.

[t12161991]

Executioners are better.

Depends. Different roles you know.

Also, Mcknight, my CoH friend ID is t12161991.

[McKnight]

What are the different roles ?

The only big advantage the punisher has, as i can see it, is the punisher cant accidently hit your own guys.

I got some issues with steam atm, but ill add you when i can, Tmillion

[Aldaris]

What are the different roles ?

The only big advantage the punisher has, as i can see it, is the punisher cant accidently hit your own guys.

Spacing is a big issue, as well as cost. If your target is properly spaced out, you will only hit two or three minis max per plasma cannon shot, sometimes even just one (especially when considering terminator bases). And that is assuming you don't scatter off-target entirely. Remember, BS 3. If you mount a lascannon on that moster it comes to 245 points, 230 without (I am assuming you'll go for plasma cannon sponsons if you take it in the first place). They almost always wound on a 2+ and igore armor, but there is cover to consider, as well as ward saves. Now, contrast with the punisher. Doesn't ignore armor, but can put out 29 S5 shots per round. That's about 15 hits on average, and 10 wounds on T4 targets. It simply is an efficient way to make the enemy roll so many saves he's bound to fail a few. And it is cheaper. Add Knight Commander Pask to bring it on par cost-wise with the well equipped Executioner and you look at about 20 hits and 14 wounds. Not too shabby in my book.
Both have their applications, but the Punisher is the better all-rounder in my opinion. Effective against hordes and mostrous creatures especially and decent against all others. With pask on board you even have a chance to take out light vehicles (up to AV 11) fairly well (you'll get about three penetrating hits per turn), and even AV 12 could look at some serious damage due to around three glacing hits on average per turn.

[McKnight]

Yea spacing also came to my mind.
But i doubt the punisher will get to fire its sponsons because of its short 24" range. But pask also entered my mind but i dont think hes worth the points in a punisher.

I also thought of him in a executioner actually. It will get AT capability and reroll to wound on monsters, with ap2 that is a nice thing. But also nice with the punisher, but in my mind they are supposed to be cheap!

Ill try them out sometime though, i have to. The model is so awesome, both the executioner and punisher cannon. The demolisher isnt  :p

[Aldaris]

The Punisher isn't supposed to be cheap. A standard Russ is supposed to be cheap.

As to the monstrous creature hunting: Most mosters have 4-5 wounds, which is the absolute maximum you can achieve with the Executioner against a single model. So a low chance to take it out, you'd have to hit with every shot. Besides, a Pask Executioner will cost an insane 280 points (295 with the lascannon), way too much. A Pask Punisher with re-roll to wound on the other hand has a pretty good chance of dropping it.
A good, cheapish Pask variant is the often overlooked Exterminator. An Exterminator with HB Sponsons and a hull lascannon makes an excellent tank hunter for up to AV 13 and an average one for 14. Those Autocannons are heavy 4 twin-linked at BS 4, and they benefit from his +1 armor penetration. Effectively turning them into 4 twin-linked SM missile launchers for anti-armor purposes. Add the lascannon (and the 6 HB shots from the sponsons against light vehicles) and you have the true tank hunter Russ variant in the list. It isn't the Vanquisher.
 

[neverness]

Agh! You've reminded me how much I miss the Exterminator when I could field it with the Space Wolves. I got it specifically for bug hunting, and it did pretty good the times I got to use it. Heck, it pretty much did good in general. I preferred it over my army's Predators. The Exterminator was a monster tank in 4th edition!

Maybe one day it will find a home with my IG army (if I ever get around to it), but I'll hate to have to repaint it and cut the wolf heads off of the sponsons. Or maybe I'll just leave it as is?

[McKnight]

Im not fond of the exterminator. Autocannons isnt a thing that the IG is short of. Then i would rather have a standard battlecannon with its ap3 and s8 ordonance large blast.

And for the price of an exterminator you can get 2 flak tanks and they have almost double the range!

but i follow you on the executioner not being able to do alot of wounds with the blasts on Monsters, although it is a good start.

[Aldaris]

Im not fond of the exterminator. Autocannons isnt a thing that the IG is short of. Then i would rather have a standard battlecannon with its ap3 and s8 ordonance large blast.

I am talking about a Paskinator, not a regular Exterminator. Pask is the whole point of the variant I talked about. With him, those Autocannons cease to be mere Autocannons and move up to the realm of missile launchers.

And for the price of an exterminator you can get 2 flak tanks and they have almost double the range!

And they are pointless in the role I talked about. The best those can go after is light vehicles, not battle tanks.
Without Pask the Exterminator is certainly not a bad tank either. 4 Twinlinked ACs and nine HB shots for 170 points, all wrapped into an AV 14 package. That said, I prefer the regular Russ as well over the regular Exterminator. But the regular Russ doesn't benefit very much from a Pask upgrade. The Exterminator does, hugely.

[Shadowlord]

All this talk of IG makes me somewhat interested in them again...

But first lots Orks.

And maybe WotR. 

[Aldaris]

Shadowlord, you are sometimes more fickle than Mathi with your "favourite army of the week" thing. Is that a Swedish genetic trait?
 

That said, I am still dumbfounded you actually sold your awesome IG army. You, you... heretic!