Topic: 40K

[rufus sparkfire]

Thanks for the help!

I think what Finlay and I are trying to achieve is to have two reasonably well-matched 750 point forces to use in a couple of introductory games, since neither of us really knows how to play yet. If one army is way more powerful than the other it's not going to work!

[Crimsonsphinx]

can you have psybolt ammo on an assault cannon? 

Yes, that's how you get the psycannon dreadnought. A psycannon is just an assault cannon with psybolts. It's not twin-linked though: dreadnought weapons are all twin-linked apart from assault cannons and plasma cannons.

I thought psycannons were different to assault cannons, being assault two, heavy four?  I appreciate on a dread that means they are always heavy four, but it is not the same weapon.

[rufus sparkfire]

The difference only matters on power armoured grey knights... who can't have assault cannons anyway.

On a vehicle, assault cannon + psybolts  = psycannon, just like heavy flamer + psyflame = incinerator.

[Crimsonsphinx]

The difference only matters on power armoured grey knights... who can't have assault cannons anyway.

On a vehicle, assault cannon + psybolts  = psycannon, just like heavy flamer + psyflame = incinerator.

Or if you like, normal weapons + Matt Ward = more powerful versions of normal weapons.   

There really is no excuse for normal marines carrying weapons which are more powerful than terminator assault cannons. 

[Aldaris]

There really is no excuse for normal marines carrying weapons which are more powerful than terminator assault cannons.

Define "more powerful"?

Isn't a missile launcher "more powerful" than an assault cannon? A melta? A Lascannon?

[Finlay]

I decided not to take a leman russ.

combining 2 squads with flamers, and commissar with power weapon- ill advised slaughteration!

[Crimsonsphinx]

There really is no excuse for normal marines carrying weapons which are more powerful than terminator assault cannons.

Define "more powerful"?

Isn't a missile launcher "more powerful" than an assault cannon? A melta? A Lascannon?

In this case its an assault cannon with more strength.  I would say that is more powerful!  The other weapons are a completely different type of weapon, so it is more difficult to say specifically if they are more or less powerful.   If I remember correctly, the weapons terminators have are specific for that armour due to recoil which power armour can't handle.  That was the fluff, way back in the olden days though.

[Aldaris]

The other weapons are a completely different type of weapon, so it is more difficult to say specifically if they are more or less powerful.   If I remember correctly, the weapons terminators have are specific for that armour due to recoil which power armour can't handle.  That was the fluff, way back in the olden days though.

My point exactly - a Psycannon has similar rules, but is a completely different weapon in the fluff. Mainly with much more rare and powerful ammo. Terminators are still the only models capable of lugging actual assault cannons around.
I don't know what that needs to be "excused" here. Apart from the very fashionable "bash Matt Ward" which I find quite tiresome.

[Crimsonsphinx]

That is a fair point Aldaris.  I shouldn't really blame Matt Ward, even if he is the lead designer, I would presume there is a team involved and someone actually has to sanction anything he does.

Although Necrons and Blood Angels best friends together is a heresy that shouldn't exist.  Doesn't mean he wrote it though!

I was always of the impression grey knights were a chapter of terminators, but the rules/costs make actual terminator units not especially useful.  I think that is a big failure in the codex.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Who is Matt ward...a friend of that Elric guy?

[Aldaris]

That is a fair point Aldaris.  I shouldn't really blame Matt Ward, even if he is the lead designer, I would presume there is a team involved and someone actually has to sanction anything he does.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of his fluffery either. I'm just getting tired of every stupid asshole (not you!) on the internet falling all over themselves yelling how much he sucks while the stuff he designed sells like hot cakes.
Fucking hypocrites.

[Crimsonsphinx]

If Matt Ward does every codex book, then that would also be fine.  Phil Kelly also did a good job with the Dark eldar.  As long as their is consistency there should be no issue.  After all, if everyone has awesome units, it levels the playing field.

If he can be criticized for anything it is for making his books *too good* with multiple good builds, very few, if any, poor units.  I think this is what upsets people more than anything when they get other designers [Hey Gav, thanks for the brilliant chaos 40k 4th edition book with no options] to do different books.

All the 5th ed books seem good to me, including nids [I know not everyone agrees with that point]

There are few legitimate complaints I have about his designing.  Specifically marine land raiders having space for an extra marine, yet grey knights dont!  I don't understand how an identical unit, in books designed by the same person can have different specifications.


Here is a horrific build for Grey Knights. 

Inquisitor Coteaz

3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback

[rufus sparkfire]

You can make absurd lists with most army books though.


The real flaw in the grey knights book is the fact that there are only two troop choices... unless you break out a special character.

And the five-point halberds for strike squads, when all the metal power armoured knights have halberds. They are basically saying, "buy the new plastic ones, or alternately just use them as purifiers which are massively better anyway."

There really is no excuse for normal marines carrying weapons which are more powerful than terminator assault cannons. 

But the bullets are psychic!

Psychic bullets!

Specifically marine land raiders having space for an extra marine, yet grey knights dont! 

Blood angels get the smaller version too... though why anyone would pick a standard landraider over either of the two variants is beyond me. Lascannon tax in action again!

Plus landraiders look like shoe boxes anyway.

[Aldaris]

Inquisitor Coteaz

3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolytes w/LasPlas Razorback

Well, yeah. Razorback spam. Annyoing and very, very boring. But let's look at it that way - Phil Kellys Wolves can pull this off as well, a bit more expensive but with troops that can actually do something inside. So can pretty much every other Marine 'dex.
But I can tell you that you'll rarely actually PLAY against lists like that, outside bigger tournaments. Because that requires quite an investment (10-12 tanks plus dreadnoughts) and isn't much fun.

And Landraiders are awesome. rufus can't hurt them with his mean, mean words.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I did say it was a horrific build.  I would doubt anyone who plays for fun with friends would even consider that. Owning 12 tanks isn't that unlikely though, I have more in my guard collection, including over £100 in two artillery tanks.

You can do exactly the same with most armies, cheap troops in a transport.

Have you seen forge worlds new land raider?  Its based on the old school version that looks like a WW1 tank
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/Games_Day_UK_2011.html   A bit pricey though!

Landraiders are too expensive.  Even the variants are quite a lot of points to pay.  Someone at GW thinks a pair of twin lascannons is worth that many points, when it clearly isn't.  The only real issue is that so many books have them in, short of FAQing every book, they would only ever upset people if they changed them too much.  I suspect this is what prevents them changing them now.

My proposed fix is for the lascannons to fire as two lascannons rather than one twinlinked one.  Instantly much better and quite probably worth the points! 

[Aldaris]

I did say it was a horrific build.  I would doubt anyone who plays for fun with friends would even consider that.

Sure I would, if I played someone who doesn't mind bareknuckles Warhammer and I considered this list to be interesting.
I'm still fighting against that common - and completely unfounded - opinion of "you can either play for fun OR you can play competitive/with hard lists". As if those two were mutually exclusive...

[Crimsonsphinx]

Sorry I dont mean to give that impression Aldaris.

I personally like fluffy lists, but I play to win.  If I took part in a serious competition, or indeed when we occasionally play our league games in 40k, everyone, including myself, seems to up the power of their list.

Some people have fun tweeking every inch out of their list in order to create a monster.  I used to be that person around a decade ago.  These days I don't care much about making a really strong list for friendly games.   Most of my gaming group is like me, but I do appreciate I play in a bubble and my group isn't representative of the rest of the community.

I dont buy an army list.  I collect an army.  Which usually means buying every single unit option 

[Aldaris]

So do I - for instance, I own 10 Jezzails and have never, ever fielded them... Chaos Spawn are a similar story.
 

[rufus sparkfire]

I'm still fighting against that common - and completely unfounded - opinion of "you can either play for fun OR you can play competitive/with hard lists". As if those two were mutually exclusive...

You aren't allowed to have fun unless you do things my way!

All the plasma guys will be Vespid models sans wings.

Are you really doing an army of wasps?

[Finlay]

Thats what I think is so great about the IG list.

Almost everything is viable (apart from ratlings and storm troopers)

[Aldaris]

Incidentally, I also own 10 ratlings. And a load of Stormtroopers.

Maybe I should give 'em a chance to prove everyone wrong.
 

[Mogsam]

All the plasma guys will be Vespid models sans wings.

Are you really doing an army of wasps?

Not an army, just the special weapons. The rest are converted guards men!

[Finlay]

Incidentally, I also own 10 ratlings. And a load of Stormtroopers.

Maybe I should give 'em a chance to prove everyone wrong.
 

Against Whitey's 3 wraithlord army.

[Aldaris]

Buggers still have a good armor save... will likely take more than one turn to drop one, and killing MCs should be about what they're most useful at. Still, against Tyrandids and Eldar they could indeed prove useful. Although Tyranid MCs tend to have a lot of HPs.

Stormtroopers now, hm. I simply can't come up with any scenario were they'd really do much better than a bunch of Vets at almost double the cost...

[MrDWhitey]

Incidentally, I also own 10 ratlings. And a load of Stormtroopers.

Maybe I should give 'em a chance to prove everyone wrong.
 

Against Whitey's 3 wraithlord army.

I cannot see that working.