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Author Topic: A different perspective to army building  (Read 19118 times)

Offline Eighty

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A different perspective to army building
« on: April 14, 2011, 01:02:57 PM »
I have been dabbling in a little high elf research recently (dont hate, I am empire for life . got the membership card and everything  :closed-eyes: )

anyway, I have to point those tactically minded forum browsers among us to the best write-up and follow-up discussion on warhammer tactics I think i have ever read.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=33584&sid=1e77363cd5e9895eb73983737819e4e7

while it is obviously an indepth article about a different army, with write ups for entirely different units. I believe it is still a useful resource - not only to better understand an enemy army but to give us an idea of how we can perhaps use our own army differently.

I for one, have fallen into the practice of always having at least 2-3 hordes (in horde or bus formation) in my list, something I rely on very heavily even when trying to think of new or different lists to run. The writer of the post mentioned really gets into the fine details of using an MSU style army effectively, I really hope i can absorb some of the things he has discussed to give me another edge over all my opponents.

hope you enjoy as much as i have  :biggriin:
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Offline milo

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 03:05:32 PM »
It's incredible how famous Seredain  is becoming for his cavalry list!

I totally agree that the thread is very informative no matter what army you play, it's a nice exercise in logic and he explains his choices very well.

I'm actually going to try out his list on the weekend and see if I can do it justice  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Rightnow

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 06:00:50 PM »
I'm wondering how he is taking a GW on his BSB unless the HE book allows it.

Offline Ricardo-PB

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 06:32:48 PM »
It's incredible how famous Seredain  is becoming for his cavalry list!

I totally agree that the thread is very informative no matter what army you play, it's a nice exercise in logic and he explains his choices very well.

I'm actually going to try out his list on the weekend and see if I can do it justice  :icon_biggrin:

Is that the Anti-Vamp one?
Our skins may be thin, but, Our women are the finest, our armor the thickest, our spirits the strongest, and our weapons even stronger when we're filled with the spirit of alcoholic spirits and women! So sharpen your halberds, prime the guns, and remember that we fight the good fight for our Empire!

Offline Fluffy1

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 08:03:32 PM »
I'm wondering how he is taking a GW on his BSB unless the HE book allows it.

high elf book only has the restriction of no magical items if he takes a magic banner, that is all.

Offline mcpolle

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2011, 08:38:36 PM »
Been there done that, would thoroughly recommend the read to anyone and everyone,

Even played with the idea of making the Templar Grand master like his one, worked pretty well, shocked a good few people.

But do yourselves a favour, and give it a read.

Polle

Offline Eighty

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2011, 11:29:59 AM »
the high elf book allows him a GW i believe. i made a list using some of the principles of the list, but we will never be able to output the number of attacks that he does in such a small space (damn multiple attack models/chariots) having said that, i am spamming 2 grps of knights, 2 grps of pistoliers, just 1 horde /gasp and a pegasus to see what i can do about overwhelming one section of the enemies flank.. we will see how it goes haha
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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2011, 12:18:20 PM »
Thanks Eighty....there went at least 3 hours of my life!   :::cheers:::

The thing that stands out to me about Seredain is that he understands exactly what he can get out of each element of his army and how they can work in conjunction with each other.

I find it humorous that many of the HE forumers (between taking turns jumping on his lap) are trying to copy his list when they are missing the real gem of what he offers-  tactical insight into how he uses HE and why. 

So, I like how you started this post- by saying that you were doing research, found this gem, and are looking at ways to improve your Empire game.  Awesome.  And thanks for sharing it BTW.   :smile2:

While we don't have the "in your face" close combat power he can focus at one place and time on the battlefield, we are made for combined arms and pack a lot bigger "in your face" with arty on the front end. 

Seredain has a purpose and plan for every single point he spent in the 2500 list.  This is how we should be stroking our lists...play testing our own personal lists until every point spent has a purpose, and synergistically supports every other point. 

I wish we had more types of these discussions.  Unless you want another food fight about Halbs vs Swords or Pistoliers vs Outriders?   :unsure:
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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2011, 01:05:30 PM »
A very Interesting read sofar (didn't pass page 3 yet  :ph34r: ) But I am at work and I need to get a few things done at work instead of reading.
 
It is about the same tactic I want to use when building an army, though I have far less experience and even less play time. And I work at different point levels for lists thus need to rethink the whole list over and over again.. that easily pulls you in for a more standard approach to put in 2 or 3 horde units depending on army points.. just because it's labbeled standard.
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Offline gardeth

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 04:16:31 PM »
Looks like his list incorporates a lot of the same things my ‘Ard Boyz list did.  By far the biggest difference is the characters. 

I’m happy to see others thinking outside the box as well.


Offline Ricardo-PB

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 06:53:58 AM »
Looks like his list incorporates a lot of the same things my ‘Ard Boyz list did.  By far the biggest difference is the characters. 

I’m happy to see others thinking outside the box as well.

Care to share that list?
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Offline Eighty

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 07:44:13 PM »
perhaps he is talking about his high elf list  :Ohmy:

my approach was this, we will never match the offensive output  of the high elves so why not focus on the end result - winning & breaking a unit on the charge.
we have an advantage here as a well timed artillery strike will soften just about any part of the line we choose (a superior form of force projection i suppose).

I played two 3k games with the results being a win vs woc and a loss vs lizards (double slann list for fun... got destroyed by 2 rounds of dwellers/pit of shades).

My list consisted of  more small units (a first for me) that could be combined offensively or thrown away defensively depending on the threat.
heres a quick recap

lvl 4 Life - rod,  wardsave
Lvl 4 Light - scroll, wardsave
Bsb - aomi,dawnstone(halberds)
W/p  (+2 str weapon)(halberds)*
w/p (GW)(greatswords)
w/p (+2 atk weapon)(knights)

24 greatswords
24 flaggies
48 halberds
15 swordsmen
10 knights(war banner)
5 pistoliers

STank
2 Mortar
2 Cannon

For my first success at piercing a weak flank, i used a grp of knights with a warriorpriest (with +2 atk sword) and a war banner.
I supported the charge with a unit of 24 flaggies (6x4, 10x3 NEVER gets into combat with enough units in the back rank).
remember the focus here is winning combat, so negating ranks with a flank charge, the extra combat res from the kit out (+atk, +combat res banner) and any possible magic buff (i ran a lvl 4 light, speed of light wins games) are all important and add up. In my case I charged successfully, molested his 40 marauders, made a 40 marauder size gap in his battle line and got behind him to boot. 

While doing this I threw my tank at at his most dangerous unit(Chosen). Having tied up/destroyed half of his army front line, my opponent got flustered, hesitated to act in time and i won a decisive victory.

my thoughts about the list and its performance:

-6x4 for my elite troops worked much better than expected, you keep ranks and you have an easier time moving & positioning with your other units

-the war banner on knights is a great purchase. also a warrior priest is almost needed to prevent you fluffing all your attack rolls on your vital first charge

-warrior priests cant hit anything for shit

-this list demands a more aggressive approach, which is new to me. For once i wasn't letting him come to me, instead i was moving out initiating attacks and perhaps more importantly forcing into combats/bad decisions instead of recieving the charge and then reacting

- Each unit in the army had a purpose on the outset and they filled it. the flaggies smashed things, the halberds provided the solid centre and the greatswords attracted all the attention (like always). this is embarrassingly rare for a lot of the lists i write.

it would be interesting to hear any other thoughts (especially from those more experienced/tactical minds) about how YOU would pressure a specific flank, or break through an enemies lines.


* i usually run with almost naked hero's, tho it is a gamble. thats why i always take a full command and usually a speculum equipped hero. i was lucky here and didnt lose a priest. but it happens



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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 09:28:51 PM »
Very interesting approach Eighty!!.. It is certainly something to consider.

I had some other settings already in mind but still need to put it to paper. But it will involve a TGM as a killer challenger char with a bus of knights (like the HE list) will get that WP in there aswell. And another smaller Knight unit to help my center with flank attacks or mopping up small nasty units like salamanders..Just need to figure out how to setup the infantry. Will get back on this though!
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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 01:16:24 AM »
Since we don't have the elite troops of HE at our disposal to set up the nasty combined charge... I would say that we can achieve something similiar by our combined arms of arty/infantry/strikers.

Since our artillery is way superior to his and our State troops are way inferior- we don't have to try and get 30+ kills in one close combat round like he tries to achieve...we just have to get a mix of 30 (like 20 arty before combat/10 in combat).

Of course, our opponent is not going to be as confident moving his infantry block into striking range when it already went from 40 models to 20 but that is where our strikers come into play (mainly cavalry, but also the WAltar and STank). 

I judge that many current Empire players forego spending the points on mobility because they are so enamoured with inf blocks/steadfast that they beef up the battleline with more hordes and buses... and I think they are taking away a key element of the combined arms approach.  The list I have been tweaking for several months has 3 strikers-  a WAlter, unit of 10 Inner Circle Knights (with AL) and another unit of 5-6 vanilla Knights.  These three units give me so much flexibility on the table that I don't think I will ever take them off again.

Every Empire army has a balance of Artillery/Infantry/Strikers/Support.  Go too heavy in one aspect and your game becomes one-dimensional and easier to defeat by some opponents.  Tweaking your list to find that "sweet spot" for you...that is what it is all about!    :happy:
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Offline galrion

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 03:12:44 PM »
I haven't played an 8th ed game yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but what I'd try out would be to run a unit or two of knights up a flank along with some fast cav.  The fast cav can take the far end of the flank since they've got just a shade more movement to make up the difference when wheeling.  They could then be in a position to perhaps charge the rear or flank of the unit your heavy cav hit, depending on how it oriented itself to deal with the knights.  Alternately, you could use them take out artillery he may have. 

Start pounding any big infantry blocks with your artillery and then start "marching" your artillery down his line, so you're softening up his blocks before they get hit by your cavalry hammer.  If he reorients his army to deal with the knights he opens up his flank to your main line.  If he focuses on the line he opens up his flank to your cav attack. 

Your big unit of say halberdiers could hold the opposite flank while a unit of greatswords holds the middle or moves up near the attack flank in order to support the knights.  Definitely don't want them near the enemy until your artillery has marched past that point though. 

Then you roll up his flank!  That would be the ideal situation anyway ;).

Offline Eighty

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 10:55:48 AM »
hehe, ideal for sure.

I think im going to give the big block of mights and little block of knights another go. its a pity they area only initiative 3... its almost like we are forced to use GW.

3k vs vampire counts tomorrow. i took out some infantry and a lvl 4 and threw in my templar master and more big guns. Beating VC in combat res is even more fun as they just die straight up!

very concerned about ethereal stuff, we will see how it goes
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Offline Falcatarius

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 05:09:31 PM »
Quote from: Seredain
I suspect part of the problem is that many players, when they take a unit, simply think about how it'll perform by itself against a single opponent (typically an enemy block)- as if it would ever be a good idea to throw 6 dragon princes into the front of 30 orcs. This means they tend to just choose big powerful infantry blocks- I believe, unnecessarily.

I just read all 13 pages and cannot express how inspiring this is. As a new player its really nice to see that 8th edition allows for these sorts of tactics as it seems like everyone is saying massive hordes are the only way to play this game.

Obviously the buffs to infantry mean that blocks will form the core of most armies, which is exactly as it should be. But i'm hoping as people get comfortable with 8th we'll see more tactical playing like this.

Definitely inspired me to paint up some cavalry for my fledgling force!

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 10:50:48 AM »
So I have seen Csjarrat made a build (2500pt) :  http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38089
 
And so have I. (2400pt)
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=33114.msg597284#msg597284

Maybe we can try and improve both lists some more?
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 11:55:02 AM »
I've recently chanced upon a Skaven list which had about 10 units of 20-21 Clanrats + a weapon team each, plus 3 units of GR, plus 3 mages. Worked quite well despite the lack of heavy hitters. Of course the Rats didn't kill much (they did run down my Captasus after he and his pet fluffed each and every attack) but not much could reach out and touch them without being severely mauled by weapon team fire.
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Offline csjarrat

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 12:34:47 PM »
8th edition Cavalry tactica:
ok so here's my experience with making cavalry work for you in 8th, its mainly gleaned from my experience with high elf cavalry, but due to priest's hatred + cheaper infantry i see no reason why this shouldnt carry over to the empire.

List design
ok so, i'll start off by saying that a cavalry list shouldn't be built solely on cavalry. when i talk about a cavalry list i mean a cavalry heavy force, in that it uses the cavalry aspect to do the heavy lifting of the army.

Infantry
in an elf army you must have some infantry (no core cav choices anymore!) so i was forced to learn how to use them alongside my horsies. whilst it seemed at first like this was a hindrance, it is actually the best way to build the list, as the infantry allows you to negate what the cavalry cannot; steadfast.

to use a cavalry heavy force well, and to reliably break units on the charge, you must combo charge with a ranked unit of infantry.
i recommend a unit of 30-40 troops, 5 or 6 wide. for this task, all the state troop choices are roughly equal in performance. that said, as ranks are so vital for the strategy to work, i'd probably favour swordies over the others due to the 5+/6++. halberds obviously kill more, so i can see the argument for those guys too.
i'd take a block of infantry per cavalry unit. and assign one to support the other throughout the game.
smaller units of BS shooting can be useful for the watchower mission and for clearing chaff/stripping wounds of big beasties.
elites such as greatswords should be avoided IMO, due to expense. knights are your elites in this type of list. they need the support of plentiful cheap bodies to deny steadfast more than they need elite infantry to provide kills.

cavalry
obviously there must be at least a couple of cavalry units in an army for it to count as a cavalry list.
each combat focused cavalry unit should be 10 strong and house a character.
you'll need at least one of your cavalry units to be core to meet minimum %, and the standard suggestion is for these to use the great weapon option for permanent S5 attacks.
its advisable to also take an ICK knight unit due to the higher strength, and the general concensus is that the lance option is better for these guys, as they can fall back on S4 attacks and 1+ saves if they dont break the enemy in one go.
in a 2.5k army, i'd imagine you'll have x2 knights units, one core + one special supported by x2-3 infantry units.

there is a role in the army for supporting smaller "detachments" of 5 'nilla knights to hunt WM's/fast cav and flank charge, however treat these as a luxury item to be bought with spare points after the bulk of your list is complete. dont weaken your hammers for the sake of providing a weakened hammer with support. xbows and pegasii can do this role as well.

artillery
in a cavalry list???
yep.
keep it cheap though, one cannon and two mortars should be fine.
this allows you to tenderise big blocks prior to engagement  while you maneuvre on T1. cannon allows you to deal with big beasties/opposing WM's and also provides a threat that fast cav will be keener to hit than disrupting your movement plans. keep in mind that its cheap, its a distraction and will be useless from turn3 as you'll be in combat anyways. dont cry too much if these get eaten by harpies.

combat characters
this i believe is the most important part of the list, as these will be doing the most of the killing/enhancing the kiling potential of your hammers.
all of your cavalry units need a character. they increase the attacks that a small unit puts out, racking up more kills, with which to win the combat with.
at a minimum, all knightly order combat units need a priest.
I'd seriously consider a TGM as your general and place him in the killiest knight unit. i'd want the sword of sigismund and laurels on mine. the 4 S5 attacks with ASF and re-rolls are golden, let alone when each kill counts for double. the priest/AL is obviously there to provide hatred so the rnf dont miss, as well as providing magic defence + GW attacks.
I can see an argument here for a kitted griffon general. the whole list is dedicated to the idea of force concentration (most kills in smallest area) so the ability to put out large volumes of attacks/griffon attacks/thunderstomps in addition to cavalry hammer + infantry should help you break units rapidly.
BSB should be mounted too, this will grant x3 high S attacks to boost output of damage on a knight unit.

If you do not take 'nilla knights to hunt wm's/fast cav or use BS shooting to cover this role, then a Captasus would be golden and fits very nicely within the bounds of the force concentration, as he can easily rear charge and support your knightly hammers.

magic
you'll have enough points at 2.5 k to take a tgm, AL and lvl3-4. i suggest you take at least a lvl3 + lvl2.
you'll have a couple of priests/AL so should be benefiting from 2-4DD per turn.
obvious choices for arcane items include RoP and dispel scroll. this gives you flexible defence + reasonable offensive magic.

I would by no means be going for magic supremacy with a list like this. what i'd aim to do is to get off 1-2 small buffs/hexes to either make you take less casualties, cause more casualties, or lower enemy LD to make them more likely to break.
to this end, i'd take light/heavens/shadow/death for my lore choices.
the reason i'd choose each of these is because:

light:
Is full of buffs that help you in combat. no brainer really. birona's/speed are perfect for this kind of army and are the spells you really want. there are some very nice supporting spells to hurt fast cav with magic missile's, prevent unit movement and reduce incoming pain by reducing hit rate make this an excellent lore for an aggressive list. (works best on lvl4 for spell range, though lvl2s still work)

heavens:
sig spell reduces incoming pain by reducing incoming hits (shooting and combat) by 1 (meaning lots of enemies will be hitting you on 5+), lessens threats of being shot up by repeater xbows/bolt throwers and also reduces LD by 1 to make it more likely that the enemy will break.
this is an amazing spell for a cavalry army as it helps swing combat res your way and improves your chances of breaking the enemy in one turn.
other spells in the lore act as minor buffs that will aid you in CC, with some moderately useful ranged damage spells too. (excellent lore for lvl2)

shadow:
miasma is a very nice spell all round, by reducing WS you can reduce incoming pain by lessening enemy hit rate, and prevent them from striking you first. you can also slow down enemy movement to engage them on your terms, preventing counter charges etc.
other spells help reduce enemy numbers through direct damage + lowering T so get more kills to win the CC with. needs lots of PD for higher spells though. (good for lvl4)

death:
being able to snipe the enemy general/bsb makes all the difference between a made break test and a run-down caught and killed 500vp unit :-)
other spells allow you to reduce strength/toughness to get more cc kills with, reduce LD to increase likelyhood of breaking and purple sun helps chew through hordes of low I goblins at range. also repleneshis PD pool with kills (good for lvl 3+)

magic items
in general, you want to equip your characters in such a way that they inflict as many casualties as possible. you should never enter into a challenge (thats what your champs are there for) so dont kit your chars for challenges. they are there to kill lots of squishy RnF for combat res, so +S, +A items are golden.

knightly orders can take banners, i suggest your killiest unit (TGM & Priest in ICK unit) takes the warbanner. every pip of combat res is very helpful!
CoC is useful as well, as you then have a back up plan if your plan goes tits up/the dice gods decide to smite you.

Flaming banner is also very useful to help you finish/take out monsters like hydra's or troll units.

general tactics/usage of list
of course, every match up you have will be different, random deployment scenarios will hurt your plans etc, so this is the general aim of the army type:
force concentration.

keep in mind that you have the movement advantage but you dont have the numbers to grind, so never fight a fair fight, always make sure you make the odds stack in your favour, as heavily as physically possible.
with a list like this, you do not want to fight on a broad battle line. you must assess the enemies deployment, find a weak spot, and exploit it by hitting it with the majority of your force.
if no such weak point is apparent; try and create one using your artillery/magic/shooting.
the cavalry army relies a lot on maneuvring. move forwards, sideways, whatver. makesure you fight what you want to fight, when you want to fight it.
use your captasus/nilla knights to hold units in place, use magic to slow the enemy down/pin them in place.
apply overwhelming force onto a weak point and ruthlessly crush it, before moving onto the next unit.
if at all possible, you need to win in the deployment, movement and combat phases of the game, rather than just the shooting phase as we're used to.

limitations of the list
hitting a stubborn unit will potentially ruin your day with this kind of list. especially if they are a particularly deadly one.
all i can suggest is to tenderise these as much as possible before you hit them if you must take them out. lower their leadership magically and if at all possible, get rid of the bsb's influence (bait/flee so they move out of range or kill him)

a policy of slowing them down/tarpitting the stubborn deathstar is also viable, though potentially difficult to achieve in practice.

please do not be tempted to go with a large ranked unit of knights. this massively reduces the threat level of the unit, as it can only be in one place at a time. they are still only I3, so become incredibly tempting to nuke with spells (metal/shadow/death will rip a deathstar apart). it also prevents you from getting your infantry into b2b contact and thus you cant deny the enemy their steadfast.


i hope this is a help for everyone, im looking forward to your comments/hate mail :-)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 12:48:45 PM by csjarrat »
Compared to the state troops they are a gentle handjob on a friday evening - jaggedjimmyj in ref to knights

Offline Volks

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2011, 09:48:01 AM »
lvl 4 Life - rod,  wardsave
Lvl 4 Light - scroll, wardsave
Bsb - aomi,dawnstone(halberds)
W/p  (+2 str weapon)(halberds)*
w/p (GW)(greatswords)
w/p (+2 atk weapon)(knights)

24 greatswords
24 flaggies
48 halberds
15 swordsmen
10 knights(war banner)
5 pistoliers

STank
2 Mortar
2 Cannon

I tried this list out last night against ogres. It is very powerful, however there were a few things that many be a problem. Firstly the highest leadership in the army is 8 which even with re-rolls is abit scary. Luckily it is so offensive that you are able to get away without having to use it so much as you should be winning combats (I charged 9 bulls and bruiser with the knights and STank and won combat by 20!!). Also I don't see much use for Life. Light was brilliant - i had never used it before. I am thinking that light and shadow would be a better combo. Secondly I had 500pts in magic but when the winds blew low (I rolled a double 1 twice for winds of magic) it was a huge problem for the investment. And thirdly both wizards were in a the swordsmen bunker as I didnt want them in the front line which makes a huge target for things that can get behind my lines and warmachines etc.
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Offline Eighty

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2011, 11:37:28 AM »
nice review Volk,
I agree with both of your big points, Ldr 8 is scary low and life really didnt add as much to the list as it could of.

my revised 3k list vs vampires changed pretty radically, it focused more on the theme of the thread. ie hammering a portion of his line and destroying it with a charge. fortunatly the battle ended in a  massacre for me(hell yeah).

I removed the greatswords and exchanged the lvl 4 life for a templar w/ sigimund & crimson ammy (was expecting death vampire) and a AL w/ VHS gear (vhs, some armor and a +1 str sword) nm just found my spreadsheet

lvl 4 life (rop, wardsave)
templar grand master (sigismund, crimson) (he was my general)
AL on scary horse (vhs, dawn plate, +1 str)
724 points

engineer
Wp w/ sword of anti hero & pot of charge (both useless)
bsb (aomi,dawn)
326

(exactly 35% character, my ideal number)

40 halberds w/ fc (wp and bsb here)
30 halberds w/ fc (lvl 4 here, i got banishment and shems so i wanted him up front)
20 swordsmen w/ m
24 flaggies

10 knights w/ fc & war banner

2 cannons
2 mortar
2 hell volley

1 stank

The game
The vampire march moved his 2 blocks of 50 ghouls up in the first turn.. danger! he was now in charge range of all my blocks.. halberds never fair well 1 on 1 with (bigger :ph34r: ) blocks of ghouls, so i had to charge him at the bottom of the first - effectively eliminating my heavy artillery aspirations!

good cover provided by some dire wolves ensured i only got my block of knights into combat with the ghouls, while my tank charged the other block.
a timely Birona's time warp coupled with some might hatred lances saw me win combat by 14.. 14 more ghouls perished!
the tank chews up the other ghouls while my big halberd block moves in ready to support charge

the swordsmen move to back up the knights/flaggies while the other halberds move my light wizard into position to burn a vargulf.

his turn his bloodknights move around to prepare to flank my knights, my wizard & swordsman block gets charged by a bloody vampire on a flying horse and his vargulf fails the support charge.
thank sigmar he focus's all 6-7 red fury attacks on my wizard instead of the block.. fluffs his attacks and i survive! (we both agree if he had focused on the block, he would of won combat and run them all down.. his bad! )

ghouls die and in my turn my flaggies tie up his bloodknights while my halberd block counter charges his solo general (the vargulf watching not 4 inches away). the flaggies kill 3/4 bloodknights (oh yeah did i mention AOE Birona again, fuck yeah) but every wound he does brings one back.. brings all3 back and they lay waste to flaggies (thank god for unbreakable, why have i been using greatswords all this time)

his vampire crumbles due to combat res, long story short. he moves his general into a building to get better los... and 2 cannon shots later the general is dead and mopping up ensues. (who knew d6 wounds per template that turn into d6 wounds each could be so awesome)

awesome game for empire. anyway onto

Reflections:

20 swordsman - even though i didnt use them as a wizard bunker, they were able to move up behind my knights and protect their rear after the flaggies finally bit it. definitely a great speed bump to protect war machines/flanks. an important part of your infantry support

40 & 30 blocks of halberds - going against what i usually preach (moar halberds! :biggriin:) they did very well (although did not get into any protracted combats) i would consider trying this again.

Flaggie - seriously i have been missing out, who knew these beasts were so awesome. great offense, great at tying up big scary units and best of all THEY COUNT AS CORE.

Templar Grand Master - he just makes knights work. i will admit this is not a cavalry heavy list (instead using the premise of punch a hole in the line NOW) and the TGM does this in spades. is it scary that both your templar grand master and your AL are in the same unit? yes but i am all about taking risks. (did you see that AL kit out? he destroys chaos lords and vampires!)

Too much artillery - i tried to be a little offensive and a little extra artillery and the final tally for all 6 of my guns was 10 wolves and a general. yeah the general sniping helped me win the game, but i could have done that with the 4 machines i take (minimum) and had 220 points to spend on maybe more knights or another wizard.

missing that second wizard - oh man was i sweating without that scroll. this was a big gamble and i would probably take it back if i could (even though there wasnt any game changing magic besides my own birona) plus with only light (and no speed of light) i felt like i was missing all my favourite buffs.

overall, i gave him a good whalloping and you can be guarenteed he is going to rethink his list (and charging his killy lord into combat solo and putting a wizard into a tower while i have cannons  :happy:  )

next up 3k vs dark elves this friday.
everyone talks about the 'unkillable' lord with that item that inverses your str into a ward save (from my understanding).
my solution? a general on a pegasus  with +2 attacks.. so 7 str 4 attacks, with the plan that he is toughness 3, so im wounding on 3's and making him roll lots of armour saves. and disregarding that super ward save he was expecting.. also if he wants to go play with war machines, i might run the general alongside my knights for even more swift killing action..
Trumpets sound around me, the wind blowing through my hair, as fellow gamers look in awe at my Army, secretly wishing they chose empire instead of their stupid rats

Offline Eighty

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2011, 11:39:24 AM »
csjarrot, great write up btw! i would suggest adding beasts into your suggestion

i have been having a blast with the signature spell if your lucky enough to roll amber spear or savage beast of horros.. oh my
wish i could remove the last spell from the list though  :closed-eyes: i hate that one. stupid mountain chimaira's
Trumpets sound around me, the wind blowing through my hair, as fellow gamers look in awe at my Army, secretly wishing they chose empire instead of their stupid rats

Offline csjarrat

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2011, 09:18:27 PM »
Not played much with beats, just a lvl1, can't really objectively talk about it unfortunately!
Compared to the state troops they are a gentle handjob on a friday evening - jaggedjimmyj in ref to knights

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: A different perspective to army building
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2011, 10:30:38 PM »
A level 4 with beasts works wonders with my brothers bretonnians... makes his killy characters insane...

Oh whats that steam tank there? my bret lord has seven attacks at strength seven with heroic killing blow... bam.
But what makes t worse is when his prophetess goes from 1 attack at s3 to 4 attacks at strength 6... outfought my general  :icon_evil:
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::