Topic: Optimal detachment and tactics for anti chariot impact hit defense

[redflag]

Now that apparently detachments prevent impact hits from occurring on the parent unit the question arises what are optimal anti chariot detachments and how do we set up tactics for their use to protect parent units? 

Page 71 of the rule book "If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benefit"

Page 30 of our army book under counter charge last paragraph " The enemy does not get to make any charge reactions against a counter charge, but otherwise all the normal charging rules and bonuses apply"

[satch]

it doesnt prevent the impact hits from occuring. the chariot still makes its impact hits agasint the parent unit as the chariots counts as charging the parent unit, and the detachment counts as charging the chariot.

The reason for this is because the chariot is being counter charged, not charged so it doesnt pay heed to the rule you quoted from the rulebook

[redflag]

Actually the rule book is crystal clear on this and its the opposite of what you are saying. 

it doesnt prevent the impact hits from occuring. the chariot still makes its impact hits agasint the parent unit as the chariots counts as charging the parent unit, and the detachment counts as charging the chariot.

The reason for this is because the chariot is being counter charged, not charged so it doesnt pay heed to the rule you quoted from the rulebook

[Sig]

I would argue that the rule quoted is in fact an Impact Hits rule, not a Charging rule, and since the unit has been Counter Charged, not Charged, it does not apply. Unless the reference to impact hits can be found under the charging rules?

[rothgar13]

I would argue otherwise - the only difference between a counter charge and a normal charge is when it occurs and the limited charge selection - apart from that, it's the same business. I think it negates the Impact Hits.

As to how to maximize this... I think the best way to do this is by having 2 small detachments over 1 big detachment. That means that no matter where the opponent contacts you have a chance at a clear charging lane. Next, parking the units at a diagonal in case your opponent is narrow and goes for the middle of a unit (a chariot, essentially).

[redflag]

If you are arguing that this is an impact hit rule than the rules are crystal clear
IMPACT HITS (pg 71)
Some models notably chariots have so much impetus that they cause considerable damage when they crash into the enemy. To represent this, those models cause impact hits.

Resolving Impact Hits
Impact hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat.  If the model with impact hits is itself charged, or is fighting a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives no benifit

[redflag]

I am thinking a 3x3 detachment of militia on each flank of a horde would be an optimal anti chariot defense.

I would argue otherwise - the only difference between a counter charge and a normal charge is when it occurs and the limited charge selection - apart from that, it's the same business. I think it negates the Impact Hits.

As to how to maximize this... I think the best way to do this is by having 2 small detachments over 1 big detachment. That means that no matter where the opponent contacts you have a chance at a clear charging lane. Next, parking the units at a diagonal in case your opponent is narrow and goes for the middle of a unit (a chariot, essentially).

[satch]

empire army book page 30, counter charge "The enemy does not get to make any charge reaction agasint a counter charge but otherwise follows all the normal charging rules.


So the chariot still counts as charging that turn, enabling its impact hits.

[rothgar13]

I think that's too meager an investment - you want that detachment to be useful for something else, preferably disrupting ranks. And Militia are worse than Halberdiers in most relevant scenarios, anyway. What I'm thinking is more along the lines of 10-15 Spearmen if you're going cheap, or Swordsmen if you're looking to fill out points.

@satch: It still counts as having charged, but the provision in the Impact Hits special rule says that if you're charged you don't get them. So it doesn't matter if you charged - you still don't get them, because you were charged in the same turn. The same thing would happen if you had a unit with Impact Hits overrun into somebody, then get charged on the opposing player's turn - you don't get those Impact Hits.

[satch]

Seems a tad strange to me, a hulking chariot smashes into a unit and, suddenly all of its oomph disapears. at least in my mind if i run into a car thats smashing itself into a wall. i doubt i will stop the car

[rothgar13]

Leave the real-world examples at the door. The rules are what they are.

[satch]

i can see where you two are coming from, however i am still more inclined to beleive the rules are clarifying that if you charge a chariot in your turn you dont suffer impact hits.

[Jay of Averland]

It is clear, but a very strange concept.

Some rules in warhammer are their for game play not actual logic.

[Sig]

The "provision" is telling people that Impact hits are only from charging, not a bonus you get every round of combat or all the time, hence the reference to second round of combat. Otherwise you're looking at an unstoppable force/immovable object scenario. The rule is crystal that if you charge, you get them. Doesn't say but, doesn't say however - you just get them. Likewise, if you're charged, no Impact Hits are inflicted (per FAQ change, the "has no effect" was removed). If we take the second rule as an absolute we must take the first, as there is no grammar to indicate the second is a provision on the first.

It's either a roll off, or you get them IF you take the Counter Charge to be a normal Charge, which is debatable anyway. If they are not one and the same, then there is no question, you get them. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd into the main rules because the overrun example is a good one. I'd say you do get them, but it's not Empire specific at least.

[Dassarri]

While I think redflag is indeed correct in his interpretation of this rule, I think its a rules as written vs rules as intended thing. I don't think GW meant for us to be able to completely negate impact hits in this manner, more likely it was just oversight on their part. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a verdict rendered on this one way or another when the FAQ comes out.

[Botor]

Redflag's interpretation is correct if you only take into consideration the literal meaning of the text. But the intention of the rulewriter is quite clear too: if the chariot charges he gets the extra attacks if it is charged it does not. Tertium non datur.


The parent unit what have been charged gets impact hits, the detachment what countercharged does not.

[Dosiere]

Assuming this was an intended benefit of counter charging detachments, I think in an all-comers list you still won't want a bunch of small detachments since they won't do much else, and now that detachments cause panic in other units you won't want the liability of lots of tiny, easy to rout detachments.  Most opponents won't have much that causes impact hits anyway.  If you know you are facing Ogres or something of course take every detachment you can.

That being said, this seems like rules lawyering to me.  Surely this has come up before when something charges a chariot out of sequence, like an overrun or something?  It's one of those things that if it had come up in playtesting and the developer realized how this would work, there would have been something in the army book about it. I will not use it until it's FAQ'd.  If it turns out you guys are correct then great, but I'm not going to argue about it.

[Folken]

Most obvious instance of it happening otherwise would be an overrun from a prior combat(they charged on their turn and landed into an enemy unit where the combat has not yet resolved) and then gets charged.  I don't see how the detachments' countercharge would not fulfill the exception in the impact hits rule.  It will be even more fun against ogre kingdoms.

[Syn Ace]

I'm not even reading through all the wishful thinking on detachments denying Impact Hits ---- when it says that a chariot doesn't get impact hits when it is charged, it's using wording that was not written with detachments in mind -- basically it's saying in an ordinary charge situation, if the enemy charged a chariot on their turn, they wouldn't get impact hits, the chariot would have to be charging.

The chariot has charged the Regiment and has hit it.
The detachment charges the chariot and does not suffer impact hits.

If you try to twist this, you're a hopeless, miserable rules lawyer and I'm glad I'm not playing you.

[Spiney]

i can see where you two are coming from, however i am still more inclined to beleive the rules are clarifying that if you charge a chariot in your turn you dont suffer impact hits.

I think it's pretty clear that was the intention, but until it is FAQd that's the way it works

[Bildskoene Bengtsson]

I'm with Syn Ace on this. Obviously I come from very friendly and non-competitive meta but I still can't believe there are people who would argue about this. I'd never ever play somenone who wanted to twist and turn rules like this.

[Calisson]

I would never dare to argue such a nonsense in my favour.
The wording can be interpreted both ways, it is not as crystal clear as pretended.

People who intend to use that are not showing a high fair play attitude.
Note that I like to use all rules when available (conga line included), just I'm not eager to twist them as much as in this thread.

wishful thinking on detachments denying Impact Hits ---- when it says that a chariot doesn't get impact hits when it is charged, it's using wording that was not written with detachments in mind -- basically it's saying in an ordinary charge situation, if the enemy charged a chariot on their turn, they wouldn't get impact hits, the chariot would have to be charging.

The chariot has charged the Regiment and has hit it.
The detachment charges the chariot and does not suffer impact hits.

If you try to twist this, you're a hopeless, miserable rules lawyer and I'm glad I'm not playing you.

+1

I still can't believe there are people who would argue about this. I'd never ever play somenone who wanted to twist and turn rules like this.

+1, too

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I'm shocked at this blatantly wrong interpretation of one of the most clear rules in the book. With all respect, but this is cheating, period, and needs not even be discussed.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Only thing this rules says is that the detachments won´t get any impact hits....story end.

[TheBelgianGuy]

I would never dare to argue such a nonsense in my favour.
The wording can be interpreted both ways, it is not as crystal clear as pretended.

People who intend to use that are not showing a high fair play attitude.
Note that I like to use all rules when available (conga line included), just I'm not eager to twist them as much as in this thread.

wishful thinking on detachments denying Impact Hits ---- when it says that a chariot doesn't get impact hits when it is charged, it's using wording that was not written with detachments in mind -- basically it's saying in an ordinary charge situation, if the enemy charged a chariot on their turn, they wouldn't get impact hits, the chariot would have to be charging.

The chariot has charged the Regiment and has hit it.
The detachment charges the chariot and does not suffer impact hits.

If you try to twist this, you're a hopeless, miserable rules lawyer and I'm glad I'm not playing you.

+1

I still can't believe there are people who would argue about this. I'd never ever play somenone who wanted to twist and turn rules like this.

+1, too

+1

Seriously guys? Want to win this desperately?