Topic: Optimal detachment and tactics for anti chariot impact hit defense

[StealthKnightSteg]

I'm not even reading through all the wishful thinking on detachments denying Impact Hits ---- when it says that a chariot doesn't get impact hits when it is charged, it's using wording that was not written with detachments in mind -- basically it's saying in an ordinary charge situation, if the enemy charged a chariot on their turn, they wouldn't get impact hits, the chariot would have to be charging.

The chariot has charged the Regiment and has hit it.
The detachment charges the chariot and does not suffer impact hits.

If you try to twist this, you're a hopeless, miserable rules lawyer and I'm glad I'm not playing you.

2 threads where this cropped up where I replied to and now a seperate thread aswell.
oh my god...

Like Syn ace said with the addition: Treat each charge as a seperate combat!

The chariot has charged the Regiment and has hit it. thus impact hits on the Regimental unit
The detachment charges the chariot and does not suffer impact hits.

If I catch anyone rules laywering this to me I'll let them feel what impact hits are...

And I'm glad this gets alot of support now here.

[redflag]

First of all the intention of the wording in the rule book is crystal clear.  If a unit that causes impact hits is charged it does not cause impact hits period.  There is no FAQ in the rule book as far as I am aware that the impact hits occur on the other unit.  GW has had over a year to clarify this and obviously choose not to therefore if a unit charges a chariot that charges a another unit no impact hits occur. 

Second of all I am pointing out that Robin Cruddac stated in writing that "all charge rules and bonuses apply".  He did not say "all charge rules and bonuses apply EXCEPT....

[jhig]

First of all the intention of the wording in the rule book is crystal clear.  If a unit that causes impact hits is charged it does not cause impact hits period.

Sorry but it is quite clear the chariot will cause impact hits on the Regimental unit because it charged Detachment rules page 30: "Detatchment makes an out of sequence move........This move is made after your opponent has moved all of his charging units...... The enemy does not get to make any charge reactions against a Counter Charge, but otherwise all the normal charging rules and bonuses apply.

The chariot has charged into contact with the Regimental unit and this will cause impact hits. To play this any other way is wrong.

[satch]

First of all the intention of the wording in the rule book is crystal clear.  If a unit that causes impact hits is charged it does not cause impact hits period.  There is no FAQ in the rule book as far as I am aware that the impact hits occur on the other unit.  GW has had over a year to clarify this and obviously choose not to therefore if a unit charges a chariot that charges a another unit no impact hits occur. 

To me all i see is that when charging you dont suffer impact hits, i cant see anywhere where it says in a very "crystal clear" manner that counter charging via overun or detachments, you negate the impacts hits on a different unit.

Unit A was charged and takes impact hits, Unit B coutner charged and does not take impact hits -even- though they are hitting a -charging- unit with impact hits

[commandant]

Principle of St. Paul applies here I think.

[Cursain]

The rule should played as RAW. 

It clearly states:
"Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat.  If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives NO benefit".

1.  Did the model with Impact Hits charge?  Yes
2.  Was the model delivering the Impact Hits charged?  Yes

Please tell me how a unit with impact hits can get charged in the same turn it charged, aside from Empire Detachments.................................................I'm waiting.

It doesn't say Impact Hits gives no benefit vs. the charger, it says it gives NO benefit.

Nobody knows what RAI is.  When 8th came out did people expect GW to rule that fleeing wizards could still dispel?  I would say more than 50% would have said no.

[rothgar13]

Only thing this rules says is that the detachments won´t get any impact hits....story end.

That's something, at least.

[commandant]

Only thing this rules says is that the detachments won´t get any impact hits....story end.

That's something, at least.

Well rather the rules mean that the detachments won't suffer any impact hits.

The rule should played as RAW. 

No it really shouldn't.   Normally when people claim that things should be played RAW it is because they have discovered a wonderful, cheezy, beardy, low down, cheap, guttersnipe and cheating loophole that they are trying to dress up nicely.

It clearly states:
"Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat.  If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then this rule gives NO benefit".

1.  Did the model with Impact Hits charge?  Yes
2.  Was the model delivering the Impact Hits charged?  Yes

Please tell me how a unit with impact hits can get charged in the same turn it charged, aside from Empire Detachments.................................................I'm waiting.

It doesn't say Impact Hits gives no benefit vs. the charger, it says it gives NO benefit.

Nobody knows what RAI is.  When 8th came out did people expect GW to rule that fleeing wizards could still dispel?  I would say more than 50% would have said no.

I donno why I rise to the trolls sometimes but I do.

Combat A is beside Combat B.   Combat A involves some empire knights and some orge stuff.   Combat B involves some empire infantry and some orge stuff.   The Orges overcharged in their own turn into combat b (thus counting as charging).   The Empire player charged in his turn into combat A.   Now if the Empire player wins combat A and overruns he could strike the flank of the orges in combat B.

Under such conditions the only proper way to rule (not that proper means no rules lawyering) is that should the conditions apply that the Empire player does win combat a and overrun then the orges in combat B still strike their impact hits against the unit they charged. 

The car example from above is quite good in this.   

Stop rules lawyering people and try and remember what the rules are trying to represent

[Dosiere]

IT could also happen if a unit runs into a unit or model that had charged that turn after pursuing.  If the close combat that the pursuing unit blundered into had not been resolved, that unit now gets to fight in that combat as if it also had charged. 

It would be rare, but Empire Detachments are not the only way this could happen.  Im fact, i'm sure it has happened to someone who plays for or against Ogres alot.  It's just no one ever thought about it like this until now. 

[commandant]

That could be because most people are decent non rules lawyer sorts

[Syn Ace]

First of all the intention of the wording in the rule book is crystal clear.  If a unit that causes impact hits is charged it does not cause impact hits period.  There is no FAQ in the rule book as far as I am aware that the impact hits occur on the other unit.  GW has had over a year to clarify this and obviously choose not to therefore if a unit charges a chariot that charges a another unit no impact hits occur. 

Second of all I am pointing out that Robin Cruddac stated in writing that "all charge rules and bonuses apply".  He did not say "all charge rules and bonuses apply EXCEPT....

This is not crystal clear. The only thing crystal clear is you guys are warping the rules. You are obviously misinterpreting the intent of the original rule that was obviously written to clarify that a chariot that is charged by something else does not inflict impact hits on the charger. In this instance, the chariot has charged and slammed into the Regiment, then after all chargers have moved, the detachment charges the chariot and suffers no wounds. You guys can try to weasel this all you want, but I personally would be too ashamed to even try to argue in favor of the interpretation you are championing and if you want to look like a fool trying to pull this off in a game or tourney, then you deserve all the scorn and ridicule that will be heading your way.

Sorry, I'm easily annoyed today.

[rothgar13]

Some strong feelings being bandied about here. Interesting.

Upon re-reading the text, I think it's definitely unclear as to whether you'd negate Impact Hits on the parent, but you definitely negate Impact Hits on the counter-charging detachment, which is still valuable, because it means you can potentially apply overwhelming static CR to something like a Chariot and not even have to make the first Steadfast Ld test.

[Cursain]

So you get charged by four Ogre Mournfangs and they crash into your greatswords.  They rolled a 10 on their swiftstride charge. You're going to take 8D3 impact hits even though your detachment counter charged them.

You're such a great person and fun to play with, you bent over and took it like a man even though the rule CLEARLY says otherwise.

I would love you play against you in a tourney, it'd be easy pickens.

[rothgar13]

Mournfangs don't double their Impact Hits on a 10+. They always just get a flat D3.

And it's not clear, because the Greatswords didn't charge the Mournfangs. The detachment did. There needs to be some clarification on whether all impact hits are negated, or only the ones that would otherwise affect the detachment (because the Mournfangs still count as having charged that turn). It would be great if it did negate impact hits altogether, but we simply can't say for sure... yet.

[Syn Ace]

I'm pretty sure this is all hypothetical in regards to it occurring in a tourney because I doubt any major tourney will rule that a detachment nullifies impact hits. I mean half of the Empire players agree it makes zero sense.

If GW wants to come out and say it nullifies impact hits, great -- I'll be all for it. But as of now, it's wishful thinking.

[Cursain]

Mournfangs don't double their Impact Hits on a 10+. They always just get a flat D3.

And it's not clear, because the Greatswords didn't charge the Mournfangs. The detachment did. There needs to be some clarification on whether all impact hits are negated, or only the ones that would otherwise affect the detachment (because the Mournfangs still count as having charged that turn). It would be great if it did negate impact hits altogether, but we simply can't say for sure... yet.

Thanks for clearing that up rothgar13.

[Shadowwolf]

What happens if a chariot is charged by a pursuing unit from another combat, before it's own combat has been resolved? Does it lose it's impact hits? Or if two units pursue into each other? (Is it even possible?)

Shadowwolf

[Cursain]

I'm pretty sure this is all hypothetical in regards to it occurring in a tourney because I doubt any major tourney will rule that a detachment nullifies impact hits. I mean half of the Empire players agree it makes zero sense.

If GW wants to come out and say it nullifies impact hits, great -- I'll be all for it. But as of now, it's wishful thinking.

It's not wishful thinking Syn.  The rule clearly says the Impacts have no benefit.  It doesn't say to what it has no benefit.  It says 'no benefit'.  It sounds pretty darn cut and dry that it's effectively nullified.

Those of us on the other side of the argument can say it's wishful thinking to allow the impact hits.

[Dosiere]

What happens if a chariot is charged by a pursuing unit from another combat, before it's own combat has been resolved? Does it lose it's impact hits? Or if two units pursue into each other? (Is it even possible?)

Shadowwolf

No the second option is not possible (I think!).  Since you would never have two pursuing units from separate forces moving at the same time.  The second one to move would simply count as charging the first.

The first example would be the most common encountering of this.  It has certainly happened in some of my games, albeit without anything that caused impact hits.  I am sure it has happened many times especially for those that play Ogres but I doubt this even crossed their minds.

[Shadowwolf]

What happens if a chariot is charged by a pursuing unit from another combat, before it's own combat has been resolved? Does it lose it's impact hits? Or if two units pursue into each other? (Is it even possible?)

Shadowwolf

No the second option is not possible (I think!).  Since you would never have two pursuing units from separate forces moving at the same time.  The second one to move would simply count as charging the first.

The first example would be the most common encountering of this.  It has certainly happened in some of my games, albeit without anything that caused impact hits.  I am sure it has happened many times especially for those that play Ogres but I doubt this even crossed their minds.

What I mean is that by the same logic, impact hits would be cancelled by units pursuing into an enemy in a unresolved combat. Has this ever been discussed?

Shadowwolf

[Dosiere]

What happens if a chariot is charged by a pursuing unit from another combat, before it's own combat has been resolved? Does it lose it's impact hits? Or if two units pursue into each other? (Is it even possible?)

Shadowwolf

No the second option is not possible (I think!).  Since you would never have two pursuing units from separate forces moving at the same time.  The second one to move would simply count as charging the first.

The first example would be the most common encountering of this.  It has certainly happened in some of my games, albeit without anything that caused impact hits.  I am sure it has happened many times especially for those that play Ogres but I doubt this even crossed their minds.

What I mean is that by the same logic, impact hits would be cancelled by units pursuing into an enemy in a unresolved combat. Has this ever been discussed?

Shadowwolf

Yes sorry that's what I meant in the last paragraph.  It surely has happened before since wiht Ogres you are playing practically an entire army with Impact hits.  I have never personally seen anything online or heard it discussed at the LGS.  Until now I assume people play it that the impact hits still occur.

[rothgar13]

I'm a regular over at the Ogre forums, and I have to say I don't recall this being discussed. To be honest, I hadn't taken that close a look at the Impact Hits special rule until now.

[Finne]

Not buying it.  Chariot still gets its impact hits on the unit it charged.  Step back and quit reading the rule book with your WAAC glasses on.  sheesh

[CaptainChris]

What I find most interesting about this thread is the way those claiming to be on the side of fair play and honesty and good sportsmanship are some of the biggest jerks I've ever seen.


I don't even care what the argument is. People disagree, stop thinking your morally superior because of how you read a book.

[rothgar13]

Well said, sir.