The old Grand Master model may be smaller and static looking, but I prefer it to the new model (which looks like it’s from the AoS range).

The Empire release will be January 11. The Free Company Militia box has an MSRP of $85. The Empire Knights box has an MSRP of $63.

I agree on the old pewter Grand Master miniature except for their plastic tails, which are the devil itself.

Quote from: Damar on December 16, 2024, 03:38:19 PM
Harald can join any Empire army and since he must be with Knights Panthers, I would assume at least the charge bonus comes as part of the package for KP. And of course, that means KP is available for both Nuln and Grand Army.

Good point!

I do wonder however if the knightly orders come as their own unit entries or if they are simply upgrades to existing knights? I would assume the latter as that is a lot more "economical" in space and structure.

I just really hope that the upgrade will be free and that there will be a "generic" knightly order rule. As for rules, I can imagine the following:

* Knights of the blazing sun - Something about enemy having to re-roll natural sixes to hit or some such.
* Knights of the white wolf - (Please please) let them get the cavalry hammer back from 6th edition.

I sure hope his horse is a mega horse which gives +3 wounds and +2 toughness with d6 stomp attacks

I'm still fairly pessimistic about these reveals.

The mercenary captain will not likely be very good because mercenaries are not core and are extremely expensive and lackluster.

While we haven't seen the knightly order stats, it seems likely that they'll be mediocre and not worth the upgrade over core knights.
They'll probably be an upgrade on inner circle knights who are already barely worth taking.

Then there's the Grand Master himself. Grand Masters are already trash due to their lackluster rules and inflated cost. I can't imagine that paying even more for an axe that is about as good as a great weapon or lance and a re-roll charge ability that is already built-in to bretonnian horses is going to be a good, cost-effective pick.

I guess our hope lies in the gunline.

Edit: I'm obviously not basing this on the aesthetic or on the fluff, both of which have potential.

Quote from: Perforated on December 16, 2024, 06:37:06 PM
* Knights of the white wolf - (Please please) let them get the cavalry hammer back from 6th edition.

I am guessing they are going to get white wolf cloaks and get +1AS ve shooting to go with their GWs - likely trying to make GW knights viable… but still failing.

These pauldrons ... have mercy ...  :eusa_wall:

Quote from: Qrab on December 16, 2024, 05:52:45 PM
The old Grand Master model may be smaller and static looking, but I prefer it to the new model (which looks like it’s from the AoS range).

So do I. The old miniatures were sculpted by people who knew what they were doing, but were held back by technical limitations (hence why the poses are quite static). Despite that, the miniatures still hold up in my opinion.

The new miniatures on the other hand were sculpted by people who don't fully know what they are doing, even though the technical restrictions are essentially gone. The results are lacklustre at best.


In comparison, other companies produce such designs:

I quite liked the Steel Fist Miniatures' italian wars line, sadly it's mostly in pewter. I particularly like their Reinassance Knights Charging sets due to the plumes

As for you degenerate Foot Knight enjoyers, they also have cool fluted armored dismounted reinassance knights

Fuckin' based in UK tho, ain't getting that shipped overseas to my location, that's for sure.

Arcane Journal full review :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCHWE7OdqsA&t=39s&ab_channel=SquareBased%3AAWarhammerFantasyintheOldWorld

It's....eh? The crystal ball looks good for keeping a griffin rider from dying to monster slayer I guess.

TOW writer never fail to not fail me

I do guess if you want to run state troops and detachments (and I do) you may as well run army of Nuln?  Although I'm not sure a free champ upgrade for them is that significant.

And road wardens are pretty much what empire pistoliers should have been so if, like me, you have three units of them, suddenly Nuln looking a little more interesting.

Overall the AJ doesn't do much to address the way I like to play, however, Teutogen guard are just better greatswords IMO, and the warwagon is decent, etc, so the grand army gains a little power, but nothing really happened to help blocks of state troops.

However, both Nuln and The Knightly Orders I consider almost to be straight upgrades in terms of fun and fluff since they have actual special rules.

Oh my goodness. Pistoliers that are good. That saved it for me. I was about to lose my shit. Still not great. But there might be just enough for me not to rage quit.

I have always wanted pistoliers with feigned flight and fire and flee. That is a Christmas miracle.

Comments as I watch the video:

Magic weapons: I would say pretty decent. Nothing like Frontier Axe but also nothing completely bad. Blade of Silvered Steel of course weakest since it's Blade of Might that costs +10 pts but whose other bonuses are entirely situational (they are good vs. undead of course). Arquebus of course mandatory for Nuln engineer.

Magic Armor: Shield of the Gorgon. Bit expensive for what it does but can work if you charge like a unit of trolls. But 40pts is quite a lot. Of course if they errata it and -1 applies to chariot crews, mounts & rider. Twice-blessed armor is pretty fun. Not too bad since you can get a cheap ward elsewhere.

Amulets: Witch Hunters ward, not too bad. Luckstone & 2xlodestone combined for fraction of a price. Could see myself taking this. Slayers Hourglass is cheap but extremely situational and of course -1 WS will not do much unless you give this to guy like Grand Master who has WS to get above stuff like Chaos Dragons WS6 with this minus. Still, amulets are ok for the price.

Standards: Knights Panther. Unbreakable is pretty good but banner is expensive and as host says, you want to punch through the enemy. Tapestry would be good if you have a unit with massive number of attacks. So this is problem with Empire unless you combine it with Battle Lust or Demonic Vessel magic, in which case it becomes pretty good but 40pts is 40pts. Demigrpyhs are of course main contenders here.

Banner of Morr. Relatively cheap, of course requires Deathly Cabal for maximum fun or Demigryphs. Nuln banner, cheaper Iron Resolve banner for your infantry block essentially.

Enchanted items: Squinthoffen is ok for a captain who sits in missile unit. If only we could get Volley Fire rules now. 35pts is lot but on the other hand you can probably calculate this turning into 2-3 hits more per turn when it comes to whole unit so not too bad. Ring of Fortune goes to same category as Paymasters coin. Might work or not. I guess if you like PMC you like this one too. You can certainly combine the three for one round of multiple S4 AP-1 hits against one target if you feel if it's worth it (I don't)

Ring of Taal: 5+ ward save for whole unit at 4+ roll. Not too bad I would say. At least you can pretend you have WP of Taal

Arcane Items: Twin-tailed wand. Dark/Demon Magic of course a proper candidate here with automatically gained magic missile. Can work. Tome of Midnight. Interesting, but need to think of uses. Crystal ball, I would not say it's bad. Reverse Lucky Heirloom in a way but of course it takes Arcane Slot. On the other hand, Wizard staff is common anyway.

Nuln: No Wizard lords. This is immediately a massive problem of course. However, I could work with just Mages I assume. Vanguard cannons = Galloper gun models to use. Handgun drill, not too bad. Nice extra bonus especially since you will be packing handgunners anyway. Free champions too. Probably won't help much but it's there. Veteran Outriders, thank you very much.

Hans: Some nice rules but too pricey and a footslogger. I would not use.

Road Wardens: Pistoliers who do not suck. Yes please. Rare choice of course hurts for Nuln but Special for GA is not bad. I could deffo use some. Work as Stradioti too.

War Wagon: Very nice. They decided to keep weapons unique unlike us doom and gloomers said.

Imperial ogres: Why Morning star and not Flail? Also, Bretonnian Exiles STILL CANNOT TAKE THIS UNIT! Wtf! Lack of Ironfist hurts, these guys should have option for shield+morning star.

Knightly Orders Army: Another lackluster cavalry army essentially in my opinion though the various orders give some variant to it. Nomadic Waagh! still holds the cake for a good mounted army in my opinion. The Order knights are thematic. White Wolf of course best by far because Furious Charge is not conditional and Wolf Hammer is good. Fiery Heart gainst +1 initiative on the turn it charges? Well, you will hit simultaneously vs. chaos knights so there is that I guess. Blazing sun gets magical attacks and +1 CR, which is ok. Evasive, on heavy cavalry, wtf?

Teutogen Guard: Thematic and better Greatswords. Available for GA too.

Harbinger of Doom: Flagellant hero that can pray to make current "Blessing of the lady" slightly better. Absolute rubbish.

No I think it sucks pretty bad. Anything good comes with a lot of restrictions. The teutogen guard is awesome with T4. But so expensive, at least you can take special in the grand army. Outriders losing ponderous is nice for nuln.

We still don’t have a magic helmet.  Knightly orders are worthless except white wolf. And the armies of infamy have such ridiculous limitations you get basically only one unit. It’s ridiculous.

War wagons are cool and a steal at 140 points!

Nuln list can't have Wizard Lords. That seems really bad.

Panther and White wolf lists get no wizards period. White wolf doesn’t even get any sigmar priests or witch hunter.

Sigmarite lists makes sense, even if it's bad balance-wise
Why Ulric don't get wizards is weird AF

Repeated. sorry

Overall thoughts: It feels like something a college student came up with in an all nighter before the assignment was due. Given the amount of great things that could have been done with this arcane journal, it was poorly thought out for an all ready bottom tier army.

The bad:
- Magic items are wonky and mostly overpriced never takes. There were 1 or 2 decent ones.
- Nothing was done to help infantry
- The armies of infamy are bad. Nuln can only take lvl 2 mages, Knightly orders can take none.
- The Knightly order army is just straight worse than the grand army. There was zero point.
- Only 2 special characters were given. The Chapter Master is bad with only 3 wounds, 3+ armor, no ward.
- Imperial Ogres are mediocre.
- The knightly order upgrades are mid at best with the exception of white wolves.
- No witch hunter armory/customization options
- No horse drawn artillery with Ambusher
- No fusilade rule for pistoliers
- No infantry company army of infamy
- No Middenland army of infamy
- No Marienburg army of infamy (no land ship, no mannan's blades)
- No Carroburg Greatswords
- No Steam tank variants
- No knights on foot
- No halflings

The good:
- Teutogen Guard are at least better than Great Swords.
- White Wolves look pretty nasty on the charge
- ROAD WARDENS aka the actual pistoliers
- Special character that gives +1 to roll for first turn looks all right.
- War wagons are whacky but nicely priced.
- New Flagellant character that buffs flagellants
- Nuln army of infamy buffs Outriders to amazing and gives hellblasters the option to vanguard

Lots of interesting things already, I'll might add more later but right now my main take-aways are:

War Wagons
Looks like a decent deal! Cool that it can be a mount for an engineer as well.

Road Wardens
Happy and annoyed with the road wardens. These essentially make the already bad Pistoliers completed deprecated. It's a "fix" and an insult.

Teutogen Guard
Look really good as far as Empire infantry goes. But they do the same thing to Greatswords as Road Wardens do to Pistoliers.

For a measly two point difference they gain drilled, veteran, +1 T, situational ward save and those wolf hammers. Greatswords can gain veteran and drilled but that would put them at 14 points a piece and they're still behind. Also, the Teutogen guard can as a comparison get up to 14 points a piece and gain yet another favourable special rule.

To be 100% fair, Teutogen guard cannot take detachments... but who cares?

Harbinger of doom
This dude is a "Flagellant character" that does almost nothing for Flagellants, and also feels very much out of place in other units except maybe Free Company.

Wardens/Teutogen are bit heavy handed fixes but I guess we take it. So I would not say them fixing infantry in the future would be entirely impossible, even with errata if they are willing to go for this obvious "f..k the pistoliers" fix.

I mean, they could just publish a modfied pdf and say "this replaces page X of Forces of Fantasy" and you would have new entries for state troopers there. Then you could have something like this (and it would even support the new Nuln style)

State Trooper 4pt, Close Order, Horde, Regimental unit, detachment.
Equipment: Light armor, shield, hand weapon.
Options: Replace shield with halberd - free
             Replace hand weapon with spear +1pt/per model

(Would be much more tolerable than current by shaving 2pts from spearmen and giving him horde).

Saw the whole video... I have mixed feelings about this AJ. It's not as good as Bretonnia's, but at least it is not the worst.

Nuln makes an already decent list quite stronger. The empire gunline will be very interesting, especially with that core outriders. War vagon is incredibly cheap, but wacky to use i guess (should it shoot? should it fight? i don't get it). No STank discount or move to special, and no STank variants.

The templar orders AoI is nice, I love the White wolves are back (and they're probably the strongest knights, the hammer and furious charge might turn to be really strong) and you can take them with the panther knights, so it's a nice mix, but no mages. Templars of morr might be the more competitive, because it's the only one that can take lvl 4s.

They did nothing for the great army (and its infantry theme) so i think the great army will fall behind the two AoI. The common magic items are rather mediocre, there's very little i'd take over basic stuff.

the whole book has been leaked

and...its pretty bad

I'm very disappointed tbh - neither of the AJ armies look fun to actually make a list for and will mostly just be bad

There's one or two interesting items but I think its time to fully accept that this is not the edition for empire at all

I look at almost everything in the full list and think "thats sort of interesting and cool, but to be at all viable needs to be 20-50% of the points cost"

I would not say it's disappointing. The underlying issue is the fact that State Troopers are badly priced which means the whole "combined arms"* thing simply cannot be done either competively or even on budget.

If such a thing would be fixed, then I am sure people would be quite happy with myriad options they get to spice up the infantry line. I mean, AJ does not have a single outright crappy magical weapon that I would never consider like Foebreaker from Bretonnian AJ (So, first you gotta take a wound and then you might get some negative effects if you fail? Yay...)

*At least that is how I view Empire from back in the day. State Troopers & artillery are the buns and steak of the burger. Warrior priests, mages, knights etc. are the fillings and side orders of the blackpowder meal that is the Empire.