Topic: Averlanders, Who should Rule Averland After Marius? [Fluff]

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Howdy all, I realize this is more of a fluff related question so it may not belong in this forum, so feel free to move it as desired. I am currently writing a short story taking place in southern Averland. This question came up as I was working on it and I wanted to get the opinion of other Fluff enthusiast out there. Ok, on to the meat and potatoes:

The Elector Count, Marius “Mad” Leitdorf died in battle in Black Fire pass in the back of the 6th Edition Empire Rule Book – quite heroically I might add. He’s been dead since that book came out and GW hasn’t named a successor, labeling Averland’s Elector Count as “disputed”. I was wondering who the people think should become Averland’s Elector Count.

Background:


Grand Countess Ludmilla von Alptraum was 77 years old at the start of The Enemy Within campaign.  She lived long enough to send Feldmarschall Marius Leitdorf to assist the beleaguered Ostlander forces at the Battle of Wolfenburg in 2514.  The old Countess died shortly after and was succeeded by her eldest daughter, Baroness Marlene.  Unfortunately, Marlene passes away from the plague that ravaged the land after the war.  Marlene’s only surviving child and heir, Helena, abdicated in favour of her husband, Marius Leitdorf.  Elector Count Leitdorf did not rule long, having been killed by an Orc Warlord in battle near Black Fire Pass.

Critical Hit also says some things, though a bit different about Marius becoming the leader (http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/94/52/1/1/). Basicaly there are two families, The Leitdorfs and the Alptraums vying for the throne.

Contenders:

Hans Leitdorf – brother of Marius and the leader of the Knights of Sigmar’s Blood. Not much is mentioned about him, and I suspect he probably isn’t as crazy as his brother. –but it could be a family thing. The Leitdorf family are powerful and have control of several towns across the Province. Hans has historical precedence in his favor. When Magnus the Pious died, his brother was to become the emperor (even though the Grand Theologian decline to accept him). So it is OK for a brother to take the position of leadership.

Helena Alptraum- Wife of Marius Leitdorf who abdicated her position to Marius when Marlene died of the Plague. It could be argued that since she was the heir to Elector Count, she should get control back of Averland now that Marius is dead – thus reverse her abdication. The Alptraums are supported by the League of the Vine which consist of towns around Averheim along the Stirland border.

(UNAMED)  Leitdorf- There has been rumor of Marius having a son, but I haven’t found a name for him or even evidence of the son existing. Would he gain precedence over Hans Leitdorf thus beating Hans to the Throne?

So, fluff enthusiasts, what do you believe? Would you support Hans, Helena, or Marius’s Son if he even exists? Would Hans still rule if Marius had a son?

If you can find an answer, or bring evidence to the table, let’s hear it! Post any supporting evidence or documents you can find. Hopefuly GW will arrive at the same conclusion we do when the eventually update Averland’s Elector Count. Until then *raises mug* Here is to Marius Leitdorf, the Mad Count of Averland! *clink*

~Karl Voss von Loningbruck

[rufus sparkfire]

Personally, I like to say that Marius did not die, since that story in the sixth edition empire book was so unbearably awful (I have found better stories clinging to the bottoms of rubbish bin lids). Secondly, I don't agree with the Critical Hit fluff. I prefer to say that Averland is currently under the control of the Avermarshall, who keeps the injured Marius in a state of drugged unconsciousness while playing the various nobles off against each other.

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/library/tales/snow.php

My version is as unofficial as Critical Hit's of course. But I like it more. 

[General Von Lettow]

As far as I know Leidorf didn't just have one son - he has 3 sons. Some of them showing their fathers inherent mental weaknesses. I believe they all were vying for the throne of Averland.

I believe they are mentioned in a WD story before the SoC when Karl Franz "The leader of the free world" formed the Conclave of the Willing er.. uhm.. i mean Light...

Or maybe in his special rules on the net...

Can anyone confirm this as I don't have the mentioned WD?

Von Lettow

P.S: The Skaven DIDN'T have weapons of mass destruction after all...

[Karl Voss of Averland]

LOL! Purposefully keeping the Elector Count of Averland in a coma!?

They shall pay for this!
 

Good story by the way! GW needs to hire fluff writers from here before they write some of the pitifully awful stories - especially the ones that go with Campaigns. I do think that Marius died heroically but they didn't even mention his skills with a sword + parrying dagger or his madness. Leitdorf should have cut that Orc to ribbons! He just stuck the Orc in the gut with his Runefang and got crunched.

I have only heard that Marius had sons, but no actually "facts" or text on it. If it was in a story, it was user written. My bet is on Hans for some reason. I wonder if being the grandmaster of a knightly order would prevent you from becoming the Elector Count?

[Rusty]

*clink* To Marius!

My Captain fought at Black Fire Pass that day, and all but reveres Marius Leitdorf for his heroism. He's firmly in the Leitdorf camp, which means he and I support the claim of his brother, Hans. Helena may have had the claim once, but she should not be allowed to reverse her abdication. What if in a couple of years she decides to abdicate again? And if her sucessor then dies, is she going to try to claim again? Averland and the Empire could do without such impulsive yo-yoing. However, should a legitimate son of Marius and Helena come to the fore, he would receive my support.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

I agree with Rusty, in my Fluff that I am writing, Karl Voss also served along Marius at Black Fire Pass (as but a mere private and was wounded) and is also Firmly in the camp of the Leitdorfs, being in Loningbruck and relying heavily on the League of the Hammer in Wuppertal for protection. I support Hans - somthing about him being a leader of Knights who are also devoutly loyal to sigmar and emperor makes me think he should be Elector Count. If Marius did have 3 kids, i'm sure there would be a bunch of fighting between them over the position as reported above some of the kids may also be Bipolar. They also may too young. If I find out more about Marius's sons and ardeemed loyal to Sigmar and Emperor rather than backstabbing idiots they would have my sword, but until then Hans has it.

[Wolfshart]

Personally I am looking at creating an army of Averland and I have given it some thought. I was thinking that in Germany during the "real world' parallel they had bishop princes that were religious figures as well as political leaders. I was thinking that with the instability the storm of chaos caused the Arch Lector in Nuln was asked by Karl Franz to act as the temporary count of Averland to avert a civil war between the vying families. These are all just rushed ideas and I intend to fluff it out more but thats the gist. As for who should rule on a more permanent basis....I'll get back to you. 

[FVC]

There's a Lucius Leitdorf mentioned in a WD, I believe. According to Sigmar's Heirs the relatives of Marius Leitdorf (sons, brothers, cousins, you name it) are fighting each other for the electorship while the von Alptraums bide their time, building up their strength. If I were to guess, I'd think eventually the throne will return to the von Alptraum family, but I don't really know which way it'll go.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Can you find any details from WD, like which WD it's from? Should we hold what WD says as fact like the Army books?

I guess Marius does have sons? Every time I find something about his sons they are made up by a user somewhere across the internet.

UPDATE: Found Material References

1) Here is what the official GW rules for Marius say (no official sons mentioned): http://uk.games-workshop.com/empire/characters/7/

2) In Sigmar's Heirs it says that the Leitdorf family ["Marius's siblings and relatives" -implying no son] has control of Averheim, but that their fighting has allowed other factions (including the Alptraums) to gain more power.

3) In White Dwarf #274 - Lucius and Albrech Leitdorf are mentioned. Considering that this more than likely someone's army fluff, should it be considered cannon since it was printed in WD? Somthing tells me no...

In my recent travels across the interweb using google and google translator I have discovered one common theme. Everyone, regardless of race or language hates that Marius was killed. He was a badass guy, blending good with bad (crazy bipolar) and the way he was offed was simply terrible. The fluff was poorly written and they could have simply killed some count from another province with no history and the same affect would have been achieved.

[patsy02]

LOL! Purposefully keeping the Elector Count of Averland in a coma!?

It's like a bad soap... only warhammer.
Oh the horror.

[rufus sparkfire]

Should we hold what WD says as fact like the Army books?

I'd say definitely not. No sons for Marius. I don't know where all that 'League of the Hammer' stuff on Critical Hit comes from either, but I suspect it was made up for the site.

It looks like Sigmar's Heirs is the only official reference on the situation in Averland, unless it says something in the new army book.

Everyone, regardless of race or language hates that Marius was killed.

I'm not surprised. He was the only interesting one out of the four Elector Count special characters, and he had the best miniature.

[Rusty]

Everyone, regardless of race or language hates that Marius was killed.

I'm not surprised. He was the only interesting one out of the four Elector Count special characters, and he had the best miniature.

I mostly agree, although I'd have liked more of an action pose, since I modified his horse ever-so-slightly to look like it was galloping rather than trotting, so having Marius just sitting serenly on top looked a tad odd. Either way it was still the best model of the four, and by far and away the best character. I'd venture to say that hating the fact that he was killed off is putting it mildly. 

[farmer]

For my Averland Fluff my General Lucas Reinhart was a close friend of Marius at the time of the battle Black fire pass. He now leads the Army of Averland and guards the Elector's seat for who ever may take it next. We must put our faith into Sigmar and Myrmidia to deliver us a Count worthy of Averland and its people, whoever it is. 

[Midaski]

He was the only interesting one out of the four Elector Count special characters, and he had the best miniature.

Whoa no! - Von Raukov has always been my favourite ............ (and so Kislev looking too ............  )

[rufus sparkfire]

I'd have liked more of an action pose

I'm not keen on action poses. It makes it look as if they are trying too hard to look heroic. Marius knows he's awesome, so he doesn't need to wave his sword in the air like a fool. 

Von Raukov has always been my favourite

His hat is too pointy. Though at least it isn't shaped like a castle (poor Boris Todbringer was last in line when hats were handed out).

[wissenlander]

I thought stuff on Critical Hit was based off of WFRP v.1?

[rufus sparkfire]

I thought stuff on Critical Hit was based off of WFRP v.1?

It's generally a combination of WFRP and Warhammer fluff, together with a lot of original work. Plenty of it doesn't come from any WFRP books I have (and I believe I have all the important ones from first edition).

[Karl Voss of Averland]

Well cripes! I figured Critical Hit was more fact that it was ficition. Some of the details i'm using in my fluff story are taken directly from it (The Leagues). I could have sworn I'd read about the leagues and such elsewhere but I guess not 

As far as I can tell, Marius has no sons and Hans will be taking the Elector Count's seat - after all he has a large pack of knights behind him.

[rufus sparkfire]

I could have sworn I'd read about the leagues and such elsewhere but I guess not

I am happy to be proved wrong if anyone has a reference. 

[wissenlander]

Well, it might not be official, but it's still workable and believable.  Not only that, but there is opposition and rivalry to the Averland seat.  Everyone's seen that Critical Hit stuff, so you can go with it if you'd like.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

The world's best reference, Google, says only Critical hit has it. 

The stuff about the Leagues is actualy pretty plausible (except Weinburg and the Abbot of Rebstock which I believe is totally made up). Averland's southern towns would have banded together as such - especial the ones near Blackfire Pass. I think it's been written in other provinces that towns have formed Leagues. If so we'd have historical precedence.

[rufus sparkfire]

I think it's been written in other provinces that towns have formed Leagues.

There's certainly nothing wrong with town leagues. They are mentioned in 'A' is for 'Altdorf', so must be included in some official fluff somewhere. And obviously, they are a blatant steal from history.

Still, I'd make up new ones rather than use those on Critical Hit. It's better to have your own story than to use someone else's.

[Karl Voss of Averland]

It's weird, i've been assuming it was all fact and have already included into my story - as the League of the Hammer and the Leitdorf family sounds completely reasonable, along with the League of the Vine and the Alptraums.

Do GW fluff writers ever read fan created fluff before decided what details to spill on each province and such? Something leads me to think no if they killed off Marius in the first place.

[rufus sparkfire]

Do GW fluff writers ever read fan created fluff before decided what details to spill on each province and such?

Considering all the inconsistencies, I doubt they even reread their own fluff before writing anything new. 

[Helborg]

He was the only interesting one out of the four Elector Count special characters, and he had the best miniature.

Whoa no! - Von Raukov has always been my favourite ............ (and so Kislev looking too ............  )

I agree next to Boris Valmir von Raukov has always been my favourite elector, the dragonbow rule makes him brilliant and S5 basic  is nice especially if he looses his runefang. mind you the American rules for Lietdorf are slightly different see for yourself:


U.S.: http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/empire/gaming/specialcharacters/marius.htm

U.K.: http://uk.games-workshop.com/empire/characters/7/

Sanj