Topic: Once you go Black you...

[Shadowlord]

... Know death metal and ear plugs are the only way to go.

This is the umpteenth time I have decided to start with my nr 1 40K army of all time, Abaddon and his misfits, the Black Legion. With their own supportive pseudo codex out, and a lot of delicious fluff, I have whipped myself into getting at least some kind of army going. At first I decided I wouldn't get any tanks because I hate painting those, but after painting my First Forgefiend I have reconsidered and will be bringing quite a few of these suckaz to the army (compared to the Field they are easy to paint).

I will try to keep an army that is diverse and can face any threat on the table and I sorta like the special rules you get with Veterans of the Long War and Chosen as troops (Abaddon's terminators are too expensive for my army style; cheap and plenty of loyalist hating scum bags). The items in the artifact section is also sweet, especially the skull which brings Eternal Warrior to your Warlord.

This army will be 100% plastic so while I love Oblits and Mutils they will not be present in my army, and all characters will be either converted or made from available plastic kits. I was able to retrieve two of my old models from a friend who kept them, do not know why, and made a few modifications for them to better fit my theme. The Daemon Prince has no wings and will not be a regular HQ because while it makes more sense to have a mark from a specific God, the marks are something I am keeping out of the army as much as I can. The Daemon Prince is a model to be used when you roll it on the Chaos Boon Table.

First is the Warlord and Chaos Lord for the army. I had a combi bolter and a Daemon Sword on him before, but with the Skull of Ker'ngar available he has changed his weapons to a combi melta and power fist. First pic shows the melee wpn change, and the second both changed.





Here is the "look dad, I grew big" Daemon Prince:



And finally my painting nemesis that almost broke me, the Forge Fiend (I quiver in fear about painting the Heldrakes):



I have also built a Land Raider and is working on ten terminators.

[rufus sparkfire]

Excellent work!

I like the gun-beast-thing.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I like all those models, but the paintwork on the daemon prince is gorgeous.   

[Sig]

The Forgefiend/Maulerfiend is my favourite Chaos model, and yours looks sweet.

[Crimsonsphinx]

The Forgefiend/Maulerfiend is my favourite Chaos model, and yours looks sweet.

I think the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend model looks completely out of place in the chaos range though. 

[Sig]

Just have to agree to disagree I guess. I think the armour plates help it fit in, and the precedent of Possessed/new Helbrute/Soulgrinder/Obliterators in mixing flesh and steel mean it's not a new concept really.

I save my hate for the Heldrake - ridiculous looking. When I pick up Chaos again, I'm going to take the awesome Forgeworld Chaos flyer - I know it's based off it (look at the wings) but the dragon head and theme is just ridiculous.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Just have to agree to disagree I guess. I think the armour plates help it fit in, and the precedent of Possessed/new Helbrute/Soulgrinder/Obliterators in mixing flesh and steel mean it's not a new concept really.

I save my hate for the Heldrake - ridiculous looking. When I pick up Chaos again, I'm going to take the awesome Forgeworld Chaos flyer - I know it's based off it (look at the wings) but the dragon head and theme is just ridiculous.

I guess so, as I quite like the look of my helldrakes! 

[rufus sparkfire]

I save my hate for the Heldrake - ridiculous looking. When I pick up Chaos again, I'm going to take the awesome Forgeworld Chaos flyer - I know it's based off it (look at the wings) but the dragon head and theme is just ridiculous.

And let's not mention its rules.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Awesome! My Sisters are itching for purging him gently.

[phillyt]

Looks great!  Such an easy paint scheme isn't it?

[Sig]

And let's not mention its rules.

They were very strong before the FAQ, it was the FAQ that put them over the top. In the codex they're still obviously the best unit, but not gamebreaking.

[phillyt]

What did the FAQ do?

[Crimsonsphinx]

What did the FAQ do?

It made the bale flamer a 360 arc turret with torrent.

[Sig]

Well the book didn't specify the facing of the gun, so everyone treated it as a fixed hull mounted weapon with a 45 degree arc. After all it's in the mouth of the thing and can't be turned like a sponson or turret. This was good since flyers have very limited turning arcs you could at least use skill to avoid the thing. It kills a unit a turn after all.

The FAQ said LOL turret - measured not from the gun, like every single other gun in the game, but from the BASE. This means it has huge extra unintended range, and a 360 degree arc. It's retard proof. You simply cannot avoid it.

[Crimsonsphinx]

To be fair, the measuring from the end of the barrel thing is only fair as long as you build standard models.

You know those 18 inch plastic red measuring sticks?  I have heard of a gamer gluing one to his landraider and putting the multimelta on the end, extending its range by 18 inches.  Technically hes perfectly within the rules to do this. It is a conversion after all.

Without the heldrake the chaos marine book is dire.  They are so pathetically bad, you have to wonder how they survived 10,000 years of war, until you realise its because they failed a break test and ran straight away 

[Sig]

See, I wouldn't allow that because it no longer looks like a GW multimelta, and therefore is a non WSIWYG upgrade to the Raider. Also perfectly within the rules 

Of course anyone trying that would be banned from all tournaments in Australia. They're all advertised on the one website so it's really easy for us to do! WhingegamerWargamerau it's called.

The chaos book isn't "dire" without them but it's certainly not a strong book no. It still has strong options in the torrent relic, dirt cheap bikes, nurgle oblits, Axe lord, zombie objective holders, cheap autocannon havocs, and using hordes of chaos cultists to ferry super jacked melee characters across the board for cheap. Noise Marines post-FAQ are pretty good (as they should be) but it doesn't have proper anti-air at all and I think that's where it completely falls down. Typically it took GW 3 books to start getting anti-air right in the new edition.

Chaos magic being weak, and the basic chaos marine being too weak, made me sad. The basic marine should have VotLW included base. Maybe even the ccw included base as well.

[Crimsonsphinx]

But it is WYSIWYG, the multimelta is attached to the vehicle, it just happens to have a scaffold too.

I would honestly expect a VOTLW to be equivalent to a marine veteran at least.  They survived the heresy.  I find the fact all your marines can be run down in combat, coupled with a miserly 1pt reduction to be laughable.

Cultists are okay, until you realise you can ally guard in, and get better troops and tanks.   Cultists seem a bit lame in my experience.  No point in using them with a tooled up lord because they die far too easily.  Exception being plague zombies.

Obliterators used to be great, until you see how much better and cheaper tau suits and marine centurians are.  Sorry, too expensive by half now, especially with the limits on when you can use guns. 

Chaos magic, Tzeench especially is poor.  Tzeench is always crap though, so I wasn't surprised.  You really want telepathy or biomancy

I will agree autohavocs, bikers, torrent and axe lords are good.  Daemon prince and sorcerers are okay too. 

From all the books I have [thats all but the new marine one] chaos seem the worst.  Maybe it is just me, I cant get them to play as I want them to play.

[Sig]

Anyone showing up with that Land Raider would be removed, without his Land Raider. Also, if it's a scaffold for the gun, it counts as Hull so you can melta it back no problem. You can also charge it. I thought you meant extending the barrel.

The whole point of the cultists is to absorb shots as your Lord crosses the battlefield. What they do once they get there is irrelevant. You can't do it with Guard because Chaos characters can't join Guard units, since they're not battle brothers.

VotlW isn't just for surviving the heresy, to be fair. Huron has it, he's only been a Chaos marine for like 90 years. I don't mind Chaos not having ATSKNF, they've never had it after all, but they should get something else to compensate. Base LD9 is a good start, and a CCW would make them really useful in combat for the price - if it all stayed free of course. As it should.

Tzeentch should get Divination quality spells. That's just an indefensible straight screw up.

Nurgle Oblits are slightly cheaper than Centurions and a lot more versatile, with a much larger range. They also don't fall over in CC like Centurions do. They don't need cover either, but that's hardly a bonus I admit. Both are more expensive than Broadsides true, but Broadsides are only T4 and get doubled out pretty fast. As soon as you add any options they go well over the Oblits too. They're all really great units.

I would rate DA as the worst book. Tau > Eldar > SM > Daemons > Chaos > DA for me. Top 3 subject to change as more builds get experimented with with Eldar and SM. To be honest though the new codexes are all ok. Nothing retarded broken like GK when they first came out. Though I think the 3 Heldrake list beats any other list out there right now, save a Necron Flying Bakery.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Yeah its part of the landraider.  So I am told anyway, but I haven't actually seen it myself.  It deploys sideways so it can fit in the deployment zone.

I thought guard were Battle bros with chaos marines?  I am fairly certain they were!  Surely if you want a bullet absorbing unit, chaos bikers of nurgle are better?

Yeah Huron mysteriously has VotLW.  I had assumed anyone who wasnt a VotLW was a renegade, and thus should have ATSKNF.  Surely marines dont become scared simply because they switched sides?  But it seems I am wrong.  I would give VotLW a weaponskill up personally.

There is no, and I mean, no excuse for Ahriman not to have divination.  He has it in all the background stories ever, yet mysteriously has no predict the future magic.  How on earth that happened I will never know.  Or they could have had Tzeench magic with similar spells, and that would have been acceptable too.

Obliterators have only 1 gun and no option to fire the same one every turn.  They do fold in combat pretty easily to any unit that can cut through 2+ saves, the same as Centurians should do.  A couple of power fist attacks really isn't all that scary.  That said, for the chaos book, they are still the best heavy support choice, so you use what you have.

I hated the eldar, you can see it in numerous posts when the dex came out, but in the most recent games I have had, they have seemed to be exceptional.  There are a handful of duff units but some brilliant ones.  Tau seem streets ahead of other books and have a number of unique rules excerptions.  All their signature wargear is good, noone else has all their unique items anywhere near that great.

I would rank them in this order Tau>Eldar>Daemons>Dark Angels>Chaos marines.  Can't include marines till I read the book and play against them a few times.

With the use of the Black legion, you can play Codex: 4 heldrakes since it can ally to another normal chaos marine army.  A good tau army will rip apart heldrakes though.

[phillyt]

You rate Tau entirely too high Crimson.

[Sig]

Not sure how a good Tau army rips apart Heldrakes myself, not 4 anyway. 1, sure...

Guard are Convenience with Chaos. The cultists are for foot troops - just take 25 or whatever and run across. Cheap and cheerful, and require a lot of firepower to put down since they're Fearless and there's 25 of them. People will actually have to expend a fair few shots to do it. I've had it done to me, and believe me all my combi plasmas looked pretty worthless! Found myself wishing I had Vindicators or even Whirlwinds.

I'd rather Tzeentch didn't get Divination - I'd like the spells to be as good as Divination themselves. It's the Changer of Ways! If anyone should have time affecting spells it's Tzeentch.

Don't try and compare Oblits to Centurions in combat, Centurions have no power weapons at all and only one attack. A tactical Squad will grind them down, a Tactical Squad will get stomped by Oblits. That's quite a difference. Virtually anything that can get to the backfield of SM can take on and tie up the Cents. Oblits come in units smaller than 3, which is a big versatility advantage, and their guns while certainly not as good, are still very good at their job - use lascannons one turn to dust a tank, and plasma cannon something the next turn, for example. All at 36" or more - Centurions are at 24" with the only gun worth taking them for, the grav cannon.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Tau have a frightning amount of decent skyfire though, better than any other army.  My opponent uses a commander suit with tankhunters manning an aegis line quad gun to back them up as well.  Its easy to glance a armour 12 plane to death in one round with that alone.  Never mind all the other units which can have skyfire.

Maybe in a tourney setting you won't see it, but as soon as our tau player knows hes against chaos marines, skyfire is everywhere.  I only own two helldrakes and they never survive 2 rounds of shooting.

I am assuming you attach a fearless HQ to the cultists Sig?  I have to say I don't use allies myself, so I didn't look very carefully, but I had thought chaos and guard were battle bros.  Thats another kick in the teeth for chaos.

Tacticals will get stomped by Oblits?  Really?  I can't honestly say I have ever seen tacticals in combat with them.  Both are mid/backfield units so are highly unlikely to get into a scrap with each other.   I am going off the rumours I read on centurians, sorry, no actual experience with them!

[Shadowlord]

Looks great!  Such an easy paint scheme isn't it?

No unfortunately it isn't an easy paint scheme, or at least as forgiving as I wants it to be. To get the golden looking brass to an excellent level is to use a lot of layers with thinned washes afterwards, and that Fiend almost killed my stamina. The end result is good but the time to get there took a lot of time and energy, but in the end it was worth it.

And the Chaos is weak is no quite correct where I intend to play. No doubt it has to do with low amount of terrain, open space, and one trick pony chaos lists (see the quote below). Then again, I consider myself a decent player and with cool models comes victories. 

Thanks for the feedback laddies.

Maybe in a tourney setting you won't see it, but as soon as our tau player knows hes against chaos marines, skyfire is everywhere.  I only own two helldrakes and they never survive 2 rounds of shooting.

[Crimsonsphinx]

The only times I have won with chaos have involved my nurgle biker lord with the flamer item in a unit of bikers, along with the axe khorne lord with khorne terminators in a landraider.   Oh and at least one heldrake.  Everyone else is more or less there to make up numbers and provide some fire support.    We play with a lot of terrain.  Usually up to 50% of the table, certainly way over 33% has things on it, so its nearly impossible for you not to have some intervening wall etc.

My problem is chaos dont work how I want them to work.  This is as much my fault as my armies fault.

I really want to make a tzeench army using 30k marine models in the red paint scheme.  I know it will be terrible, but it really appeals.  I just can't afford it.

[phillyt]

I meant that it doesn't involve too much blending of paints.