Topic: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?

[Guvnor]

Not just in fluff terms, in REAL terms. Warhammer tabletop battles aren't very real, you know.

Most of the battles would be like a 2000pt empire army against a 1000pt bret army. Oh, and the empire would probably have ambushed them.

[pinksaurus]

Bretonnia might have a chance if they play their cards right and they recieve some help from lady Luck.

The empire has suffered during the storm of chaos, much of it's armed forced are still fighting up North against the remains of the Chaos/Skaven/marauder armies. Bretonnia didn't suffer as much as the Empire, they recruited a vast army that is still very much battleready.

If the Bretonnians stayed in the South-West raiding the countryside and ignoring the better defended places (like the Germans in Russia during WWII)
they would slowly weaken some of the still intact regions. Of course the Empire would crush the Brets eventually due to greater numbers and better production facilities.

Sooooo. The Brets would have to make a deal with the Von Carsteins. They have a huge army ready to invade and the only reason they haven't already is because of the Grand Theoginist. (according to SoC fluff)

The best plan would be: a) kill the Grand Theogonist b) let the vampires attack the center of the Empire c) concentrate on the South-West, and pressuring Marienburg to stay out of the conflict d) hope that with all the religious unrest following Valtens death the Empire will break into smaller pieces.

Bah, it's a long shot, but it could work. 

P.

[Warlord]

Sooooo. The Brets would have to make a deal with the Von Carsteins. They have a huge army ready to invade and the only reason they haven't already is because of the Grand Theoginist. (according to SoC fluff)

Making a deal with those beasts of the night? Is that the honorable thing to do? Surely if anyone is going to kill the Empire people honorably it would be the Bretonnians. Getting Evil to do Bretonnians dirty work I think would be completely against Bretonnian ideals.

and pressuring Marienburg to stay out of the conflict

Marienburg would enter the conflict because not to would be economically crippling. The amount of trade that would suffer because of the Empire being destroyed would weaken Marienburg significantly. No amount of pressure from the Bretonnians would keep Marienburg from looking after its best interests.... Especially if it knows that siding with the Empire will give a very good chance to restoring the balance....

[Phydox]

Not just in fluff terms, in REAL terms. Warhammer tabletop battles aren't very real, you know.

Most of the battles would be like a 2000pt empire army against a 1000pt bret army. Oh, and the empire would probably have ambushed them.

and I'm sure the ambush would go something like...

Captain:  "Sargent!, what are those Bretonian's doing?"
Sargent:  "Still praying sir"
Captain:  "Oh.  Well, give orders to fire the cannon.  Some people around here have schedules""
Sargent:  "Yes Sir."

[MixnMash]

There is no answer to the Flying Circus in the Empire book.

Magic heavy (Lore beasts?) with the Orb of Thunder?

[Atchman]

There is no answer to the Flying Circus in the Empire book.

Magic heavy (Lore beasts?) with the Orb of Thunder?

In the days of the old skool Wood Elves, I used to take three level two mages, one had the Orb of Thunder.  Because such lists depend on flying so much that leaves the regular magic to do well in the game.  The secret then would be to carefully pick your lores and hope you do well in casting.  If the other two magic items are the Rod of Power and two dispel scrolls, you could do well against the Brets with magic.  Just remember their stupid magic users all have magic resistance.   

[reiksmarshall]

Sooooo. The Brets would have to make a deal with the Von Carsteins. They have a huge army ready to invade and the only reason they haven't already is because of the Grand Theoginist. (according to SoC fluff)

Making a deal with those beasts of the night? Is that the honorable thing to do? Surely if anyone is going to kill the Empire people honorably it would be the Bretonnians. Getting Evil to do Bretonnians dirty work I think would be completely against Bretonnian ideals.

and pressuring Marienburg to stay out of the conflict

Marienburg would enter the conflict because not to would be economically crippling. The amount of trade that would suffer because of the Empire being destroyed would weaken Marienburg significantly. No amount of pressure from the Bretonnians would keep Marienburg from looking after its best interests.... Especially if it knows that siding with the Empire will give a very good chance to restoring the balance....

Course Marienburg would join the war. Against us. Why wouldnt they want to settle centuries of unease with an old fashioned land grab. With their armies of mercenaries, they could probably take nordland and parts of middenheim before the empire was aware of it. Not the Bretonnia would ever stoop so low as to deal with mercenaries, but the chance of stealing the eastern empire is too big a target to ignore....

In a war with bretonnia, i think it would stalemate with maienburg taking parts (if not all) of nordland and middenland, bretonnia taking wissenland and reikland, and empire re-drawing its borders at the reik, and heavily fortifying altdork and nuln, which would safeguard ther position. And if the border princes join in (most of them ARE disgraced bret knights, so may just join out of loyalties, or just plain greed). And the empire copuld do little to stop this with their remaining armies, for half would be stationed in the north to guard against chaos, and the others would need to guard the west aginst undead and choas there, so not enough would be left to repel the invaders. Enough to stop them, but not to kick them out. However, the brets would in turn be defeated by our culture, for we are not feudal peasants to be crushed, and nor would the knights want the grim land to the north, so no decisive blow would be dealt, soem knights would bore of this 'barbarian' culture, and a peasnats revolt would weaken the brets enough to never think of invasion again. But they could probably keep the south, and marienburg may even be able to hold on to parts of nordland if the brets do well enough.

Not that im at all doubting that wed win eventually - it just may involve breeding with the brets until we become influential enough to withdraw to their green and pleasant land, and leave them with the knowledge that their foolish attack has allowed our dream of freedom and democracy to filter to the serfs in bretonnia, and to cause revolts all over the country. Muahahahahahaha!

[Misfratz]

You overestimate your own peasants misfratz.

|Eh?!?  Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a Brettonian!  I've been a proud Empire general since UKWD 153, I'll have you know, and have never commanded the foppish Knights of Brettonia.  Now that we've got that sorted...

Empire commoners are definitely not citizens - the Empire is yet to have a Bourgeois revolution such as occured in England in 1660's, US in 1776 or France in 1789.  It is true that the Burgomeisters have an increasing amount of power, but this has not expressed itself in political control and stands in contradiction to the prevailing power structures.

The Emperor is elected mainly by the Counts of the provinces - ie by the feudal nobility.  Indeed, despite the election being nominally "open", it has passed down the generations of the Reikland Princes for several generations.  Empire generals would do well not to overestimate the power at their disposal.

[Big Time]

In a war with bretonnia, i think it would stalemate with maienburg taking parts (if not all) of nordland and middenland, bretonnia taking wissenland and reikland, and empire re-drawing its borders at the reik

Madness. This is among the least likely outcomes for this scenario.

I still don't see where people are getting this power projection for Brettonia, and Marienburg in particular. There is no way either Brettonia or Marienburg would be able to take and hold that much territory in the Empire. It is logistically impossible, among other impossibilities combining to make it... well, impossible.

Course Marienburg would join the war. Against us. Why wouldn't they want to settle centuries of unease with an old fashioned land grab. With their armies of mercenaries, they could probably take nordland and parts of middenheim before the empire was aware of it

Even if they drained their coffers to raise such an army, who would occupy the newly acquired land? Mercenaries? Not likely. Mercenaries are not very useful as an occupational force for a number of reasons, cost not being the least of which. Even if they did raise a force like that, who would be left to defend the city itself? A back door assault by the navy or perhaps our own mercenaries would force them to recall their army to defend their own territory.

All of this would take a tremendous amount of coordination, not only between Marienburg and Brettonia, but Marienburg and the mercenaries. This would be impossible to keep a secret from the Empire's own agents. That's the price you pay when you deal with people who fight (or do anything, really) for money. That being said, Marienburg wouldn't have the drop on the Empire you have suggested and would be able to be dealt with.

And if the border princes join in (most of them ARE disgraced bret knights, so may just join out of loyalties, or just plain greed).

It is doubtful they could put aside their petty squabbling long enough to coordinate any attack on the Empire that would be noteworthy. As a precedent, they haven't done it yet and it is unlikely they would if they didn't take advantage of the SoC (a much larger threat than Brettonia).

Bretonnia didn't suffer as much as the Empire, they recruited a vast army that is still very much battleready

Battleready? Maybe. Battleworthy? The bulk of troops at this stage would be levies. Untested and untried troops with little or no training invading and holding land in a country that is still up in arms and has a battle-hardened army with technological superiority. They don't have the knights in the numbers they would need to stiffen their force adequately.

If the Bretonnians stayed in the South-West raiding the countryside and ignoring the better defended places (like the Germans in Russia during WWII) they would slowly weaken some of the still intact regions.

Shock action and suprise would be their only hope, they wouldn't have the time or the resources to "slowly weaken" the intact regions, and it wouldn't do them any good. If you can't take and hold the larger cities or more heavily defend locations, then there really isn't much point in invading, is there?

[NerrothLTA]

Besides, Marienburg is too worried about the Marquis of Couronne having a go at conquest from across the Marches...

...and when Mallobaude, the Black Knight, makes a play for the ducal throne of Mousillon, Bretonnia will have its hands full!


Gary

[hamster_of_doom]

well if you have gone on the bretonnian site latly they talk of sufficating us by taking are supply routes and saying we would have one supply route after they took all of ours which would be going through the silk road or trading with chaos...come on who wouldnt trade with chaos their sooo cute and their the nicess people you'll ever meet, and the idea of a Empire man turning to bretonnia is unlikly because who would do that because then their lands would endangered by the surrounding empire and some of those smart people in their lands would turn against them and also they wouldnt be able to use their black powder, do not forget are steam tanks would be in the south which would hopefully do good and not blow itself up and the ideas of wood elves helping is foolish for even if they did join the war they would end up fighting the beastmen and high elves would take too long to get there and then travel all the way to where the war is taking place, and darwes would prob fight each other on who side to fight on,drink ale,drink more ale,get drunk and fight each other and then drink more ale or do nothing and f they where attacking us from the south why not hire some men and attack from the north causing disturbance in their lands and making them retreat to end it. There are so many other reason why this wouldnt happen or how each side would win nothing or lead to ours and their dooms really do you think any of our emperors are that stupid and if they would i think SIGMAR would have sent them some werid and odd vison of what would happen if they did and then 3 ghost would visit.....maybe bretonnians are stupid enough to do such a thing to attack us but even when they did take are land are trusted ally the chaos horde would surly avenge us after and kill them all...hurray for chaos....

[Racticas]

Wow.  I just looked at that post and didn't even bother to read it. 

If this is our Bretonnian competition then we can rest easy, men of the Empire.

[Big Time]

I pounded through it, Racticas, it was tough...

But I actually did find something to comment on, the first sentence:

if you have gone on the bretonnian site latly they talk of sufficating us by taking are supply routes and saying we would have one supply route after they took all of ours

Suffocate us by taking our supply routes? This must be some kind of a joke. The goons at the Bretonnian site clearly are so drunk on their broken knights that they lose track of reality.

How do they intend to take and hold our supply routes? And exactly which supply routes would they hold that would "suffocate" the Empire? We don't import food or lumber. In fact, the necessities are all good within the Empire. They might cut off some luxuries, hardly a "suffocating" action. And do they honestly think the dwarfs would let them cut off dwarf trade with the Empire? We are their best customers, and they are ours. speaking of dwarfs, the Bretonnians are not in a geographical postition to cut us off from Barak Varr, and through there we could trade with virtually anyone. What are they going to do, blockade Barrak Varr? I would like to see that.

No, cutting off supply routes is ridiculous.

Next flimsy argument, please. This is fun.

[Misfratz]

Next flimsy argument, please. This is fun.

Well...  No-one has seriously addressed my point that the Emperor is currently politically weak - unable to force the southern provinces to fully commit to the defence of Middenland in the Storm of Chaos and handing his powerful magical hammer over to a supposed reincarnation of Sigmar who was unable to defeat Archaon.

It seems to me that the Empire is poised for a period of political instability and disunity the like of which it hasn't seen since before Magnus the Pious.

By contrast, the Brettonian King seems to be in charge of a particularly united Brettonian nobility.

[Flagellant]

wasn't the relief force sent by the empire mostly made up of southern province troops??

and i do believe that Karl Franz is a well respected leader amongst the other elector counts

[wisenheimer]

How do they intend to take and hold our supply routes?

A just because I enjoy the argument: The strength of the Empire is trade. Food is not grown and freely distributed, forests are not clear-cut to make affordable housing for all, things cost money and cutting off Marienburg would certainly have an effect on trade in the north.

Of course, nothing would mobilize the merchant class more quickly than restricted trade routes. Political pressure would surely ensue. You want to get someones attention? Steal their money.

That doesn't mean that the south would feel the effects, but a clever government could make sure that they do, if for no other reason than power through forced involvement.

Wow.  I just looked at that post and didn't even bother to read it.

I did. hamster_of_doom is a member here. He's pointing out how silly the Bretonnian argument is and how unlikely it is to happen. Same thing Big Time said, just fewer sentences and more words.

[Misfratz]

wasn't the relief force sent by the empire mostly made up of southern province troops??

Well I guess it obviously wasn't made up of northern province troops, but nevertheless Karl Franz had difficulty putting it together - otherwise it wouldn't have been a "relief force" it would have been part of the defence.

Compare and contrast:

Magnus the Pious - Assembles an army so large he has to split it into two!  On the basis of what?  A great military leader?  Er.. no.  Emperor of the Empire?  Er... no again.  All on the basis of his oratorical skills, apparently...

Karl Franz - Long predicted invasion from the north, which the Grand Theogenist bravely trys to deal with pre-emptively.  This should see the undisputed Emperor of the Empire at the head of a vast army to meet the Chaos Hordes head on, right?  No?!?  Instead our Karl is reduced to cajoling his southern Counts into giving him troops for a half-assed "relief force", whilst the defence of Middenheim is left to the northern provinces.

Karl Franz is a dead duck.  He's an Emperor who no longer commands the loyalty of his electors, because when he says "Jump!", they say "Er, sorry, sir, but I'd rather not, dodgy knee, a bit of an old war wound you know, good chap..."

[Guvnor]

Yet he managed to hold middenheim and beat off Chaos.

Handing Valten the hammer could be a smart political test- he could claim that he was testing if Valten reallywas the reincarnation of sigmar.

I think we should forget stuff to do with SoC, because frankly the fluff is a load of...

If Electors don't want Karl Franz in, then they just have a vote (he will win, due to church votes) and most probably todbringer will come second.

Luckily for us, the counts aren't the opportunistic idiots that caused the three emperors fiasco, it is more in their interest to stay united as it is.

About what the brettonians say,

Think what kind of players they are, and what we are.

We have analysed this carefully, conceding that they may make an initial penetrating thrust before being pushed back out again. Not just considering troops, but morale, supplies and political pressures.

Thats the kind of people we are.

Bretonians probably thought 'we've got the lance formation, and we normally win 2000pt battles, therefore we will win a war.'

[Big Time]

The strength of the Empire is trade.

things cost money and cutting off Marienburg would certainly have an effect on trade in the north.

No question. Marienburg is one source of trade, an important one but we could weather a temporary embargo with them. My main point with that was they would be unable to hold the trade routes indefinitly. Cutting Marienburg off would make this even more difficult for them. Do you think Marienburg would sit idley by and let that happen? I think it would be safe to say they rely on the Empire for trade more than the Empire relies on them. As you mentioned, it is a question of money. Bretonnia cutting off that large a source of funds from Marienburg would actually benefit the Empire.

That doesn't mean that the south would feel the effects, but a clever government could make sure that they do, if for no other reason than power through forced involvement.

The government wouldn't have to do much for every province to feel the pressure. Cutting off large trade sources would ripple through the market economy across the Empire, a driving factor that would make this irrelevant:

No-one has seriously addressed my point that the Emperor is currently politically weak - unable to force the southern provinces to fully commit to the defence of Middenland in the Storm of Chaos

The Emperor is not really much of a factor here, as is comparing a Bretonnian invasion with a Chaos incursion. Different political factors all together. One might argue that it should be easier to unite the country in defense during a Chaos incursion, but not necessarily. I won't get into the "why" right now, it is lunch time.

and handing his powerful magical hammer over to a supposed reincarnation of Sigmar who was unable to defeat Archaon.

Completely irrelevant. The hammer is better wielded by Valten anyway, so why not let him use it. The Emperor still pimps a RuneFang. He can't dual-wield them and he isn't the fighter Valten is. Valten was a natural choice. Sure, he couldn't beat Archaon, but hindsight is 20/20. Either way, I don't see the political instability you are suggesting, in fact if the Emperor plays the rebuilding phase intelligently we could see a very stable period in Empire politics. It remains to be seen.

but nevertheless Karl Franz had difficulty putting it together - otherwise it wouldn't have been a "relief force" it would have been part of the defence.

Not true. Each Elector is still responsible for the defense of his (or her, Talabheim  ) province or city-state, even in a time of national need. No one would leave themselves undefended at home to defend another, that's the hard truth. They came when it was absolutely neede, but even then I doubt the stripped out their own defense overly much.

I gotta go to chow, hopefully I'll get back to this later.

[wisenheimer]

No question. Marienburg is one source of trade, an important one but we could weather a temporary embargo with them. My main point with that was they would be unable to hold the trade routes indefinitely. Cutting Marienburg off would make this even more difficult for them. Do you think Marienburg would sit idly by and let that happen?

I don't believe that Bretonnia could hold the route indefinitely either. I do believe that they could hold it long enough to choke out trade, damage the economy in the north and isolate Marienburg to the point that taking the city would be doable for them. I'm also of the opinion that this could create enough of a distraction in the Empire that a major incursion could be successful, from a different direction.

Now, a few points of clarification. This would have to be a committed effort by all of Bretonnia, not some upstart knight with a map. They would have to really want Marienburg. And success would only be measured in the bargaining power Bretonnia would gain when it came time for them to sign a treaty. If they could manage to hold onto portions of the Empire for, say, ten years before being defeated, I could see those lands becoming negotiating points come treaty time.

Basically, I could see a scenario where a war with Bretonnia could favor them in terms of land grabbing, however, I don't see any of this as being in their best interest. Based upon the latest fluff, they appear to lack the infrastructure it would take to support such a wide-scale land grab. They don't seem to be in a position to support a foreign war without the home front suffering greatly. Unless this was about some personal issue with their king, I don't see Bretonnia wanting to pick a fight with the Empire.

[Mystic Force]

I don't really see a Brettionian army operating on a deeper strategic thinking really than charge!  Any suggestion that an army of Knights is going to be content to sit around defending a patch of land they conqured does really seem in the knights ethos.  It would seem to me that such an army would be more about seeking out an enemy army and destroying it than carefull planning, about holding certain points and blocking suppy routes.  Sure if they sought battle and destroyed any major imperial force sent against them then their isnt much that we could actively do to remove them, but neither are they likely just to sit there with there new found gains.  And rash actions in inapropriate situations, like stroming well fortified places, splitting up into small plundering parties, would be their undoing. 

[Grudgie]

Ha! The French will never take 1 inch of our land. But Id give credit to them, blocking our trade would work in a siege. And if we werent in our forts and castles, they can easily triumph over us in open country, both with there superior army, and the peasants can easily fill in the numbers they lack to hold that much ground, so I say the Bretts could take over the Empire. But not without one crap of a fight down to the last Halberdier!

..............While my guitar..... gently weeeps................. still my guitar......gently weeps........

But hey thats a suprise pinkasorous. You have my quote.

[Gargoyle]

Ha! The French will never take 1 inch of our land.

I take it your German then???
That is what the Empire fluff is based on. 

[reiksmarshall]

Or British. Or Swiss. Or Spanish. Or Italian. Or Russian. The French got around quite a bit when it camr to stealing land.

Seriously, if you guys collectively were to defend against bretonnia, you would get nailed to the walls, and repeatedly prodded by lances. You SEVERELY underestimate bretonnia's capabilties and assume a doddery old halberdier could hold our keeps for several years whilst they futiley assault our walls with lances. In the event of war, hordes of peasants and knights would swarm into the south empire, and through dint of the fact that the southern armies are in the north, the northern armies are dead or in the north, and the dwarves dont like to get involved with domestic disputes, they could gain some serious ground and reach the reik with relative ease.

Of course we would respond by moving our armies south, but this would leave the armies guarding against chaos too weak, so just the southern provinces would return. And a few southern provinces, already weakened, against the bretonnian war machine would only go one way. Stalemate. Our only advantage is press ganging willing militia, but we all know the futility of two hand weapons against knights.

And all the while, bret's 'allies' would help them. Not willingly of course. Mercenaries in Marienburg, whether under command by the burgomeisters or not would start pillaging nordland for greed, revenge or just plain boredom. The border princes would take this historic oppurtunity for a land grab, and pillage parts of averland and stirland, further distracting from our abilty to cope. For every band of peasants that rightly revolt against the bretonnians ideals, another will turn to banditry, and further our woes (and theirs incidently, but thats another point). Even the dead may came to the party, which ends badly for all concerned, and may put an end to our silly war as they unite gainst a common foe. The worst (or best depending on your view) thing that could happen would be for chaos to invade, for no one is stupid enough to squabble amonmgst ourselves whilst barbarians invade in the north.

The again, no one is stupid enough to invade the empire, so the entire argument is academic. If Archaon's Chosen Cheese couldnt do it, what makes you think a load of dudes on ponies can?

[Flagellant]

i dont believe that either marienburg nor the border princes would side against the empire, seeing the empires involvement (and military support for that matter) aiding/ keeping up economy these places.

another thing which might come to play is the dangerous mountain passes, which are constantly raided by skaven, greenskins and in some hostile cases even dwarfs. This would surely break/damage any supply line the bretts would build. seeing that (almost) all the knights would be in the front fighting, the supply lines would be guarded by only men at arms at the most. (which would be any greenskins dream fighting one on one with an army of even "smaller" men)

One thing im not entirely familiar with, how many knights are there??
as a knight is an outstanding class amongst brettonian society. I'd even
dare to say that a long lasting incursion in the empire costs them too many knights which cant be replaced easily (even if our armies would be crushed several times, the knights would bear the brunt of our missilefire over and over again....)